You are quite right. But try looking at it from my point of view and you will see that I find myself with a difficult choice...
I run a business. The Elsinores are not directly related to my business. I do other things and these are bread-and-butter to me. The upgrades I do to Oppo 105, 105D, 203 and 205 are an important income. I have over the years worked and even designed and made equipment for recording studios. I am quite confident that most of you have heard recorded music where I had a part in it, such as microphone preamps, both tube and solid-state. I also design and build tube amplifiers, phono preamps and more. On the speaker front I also do some consultancy work, but much of it for free and not much money, more for the passion and love of it. I share a lot of things, like I was the first to use SAW oscillator/clocks with ESS Sabre DACs and even gave away the idea how it can be used for the 27MHz Master Clock as well. I was the first one that proposed the need to use TWO upgraded clocks more than ten years ago. All this is now very common and most have forgotten where these ideas/needs came from. I also designed the Hybrid Tube Gainclone Amplifier way back in 2003. These are just some of the things I have shared. About 30-something Tube Gainclones were made and sold commercially.
The bottom line is that I am largely able to do these things because my wife works and we have prioritised to a degree to pay of the house mortgage. She in fact earns more money than I do. The Australian government did help us out for some months last year because of the Coronavirus and drop in income. We are doing better than most and no complaints.
So here I am faced with getting another batch of 200 made. I have a friend who I hope will help with half the cost and I hope to get ten orders upfront, but I have promised to pay him back before the end of the year. Once above 100 sold a modest profit will be made, but after waiting how long?
So while I cannot stop others from making the waveguides (or rather, I won't stop them, but I do hope they let me know what they are doing), I would rather that they support me for two reasons, 1) it will help me help others and 2) it will help to make waveguides readily available to everybody for some time into the future.
Again, I have to make the point that others have accused me of making the Elsinores into some kind of profit-making enterprise (this is on other forums) whenever I make mention of some technical aspects and the technology I relied on to design them. I have yet to sell any pair for any profit or commercial reason. Will that happen in the future? I hope nobody holds it against me if it does.
So if anybody who suggests the Elsinores were about money, they must have rocks in their heads. The full story tells otherwise. But it has made me a lot of friends, can anybody put a price on that?
Cheers, Joe
PS: I did get money for writing this article a few months back, but I would have done it for nothing:
Link: Remembering Tim de Paravicini - Enjoy The Music.com
Great explanation Joe!
Fully understand and agree.
I myself still have a few pairs of your WGs left in the basement so it´s not urgent. Maybe I just whenever that time comes take a cup of coffee with my friends at the wood workshop to see if we can the stuff into the cnc router that they have. Just to play with (and that could take quite a while before that happens as they are loaded with comersially a looooot more profitable work).
Keep up the good work Joe!
(B.T.W. all: still looking for the spl and imp graphs for the 2608 with WGs)
Fully understand and agree.
I myself still have a few pairs of your WGs left in the basement so it´s not urgent. Maybe I just whenever that time comes take a cup of coffee with my friends at the wood workshop to see if we can the stuff into the cnc router that they have. Just to play with (and that could take quite a while before that happens as they are loaded with comersially a looooot more profitable work).
Keep up the good work Joe!
(B.T.W. all: still looking for the spl and imp graphs for the 2608 with WGs)
Joe, you have a thread in Group Buys, is this the same waveguide? - Waveguide to suit Peerless HDS/Scan-Speak D2608/91300 . As the waveguide has progressed to matters of supply, discussion of that specifically should be moved, and this looked like an appropriate place. I'll accept your input as to where these should end up. You can even start another thread (and I'll make the arrangements).Joe Rasmussen said:
EDIT:
Discussion of the waveguide group buy and related topics moved to the abovementioned thread. (Discussion of design elements, usage or DIY waveguide construction are excepted and may stay here.)
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Thanks Allen, for reminding me. I have just edited it and added a post.
PRE-ORDERS:
For Pre-Orders right now, please go to to link below, it will secure pairs at the current price and be sent as soon as stock arrives:
PRE-ORDER LINK:
Waveguide to suit Peerless HDS/Scan-Speak D2608/91300
PRE-ORDERS:
For Pre-Orders right now, please go to to link below, it will secure pairs at the current price and be sent as soon as stock arrives:
PRE-ORDER LINK:
Waveguide to suit Peerless HDS/Scan-Speak D2608/91300
Joe:
I don't mean to be rude, but what's your realistic timeframe for releasing the cabinet and crossover design and other build guidance for the Hamlet? I have a wide circle of friends who have expressed interest in a smaller version of the Elsinore and, before getting their hopes up and placing a large pre-order for your waveguides, it would be helpful to know that we'll have a speaker to build.
You have people over here salivating at the prospect of a Hamlet project.
Regards,
Scott
I don't mean to be rude, but what's your realistic timeframe for releasing the cabinet and crossover design and other build guidance for the Hamlet? I have a wide circle of friends who have expressed interest in a smaller version of the Elsinore and, before getting their hopes up and placing a large pre-order for your waveguides, it would be helpful to know that we'll have a speaker to build.
You have people over here salivating at the prospect of a Hamlet project.
Regards,
Scott
Received three payments for pre-orders of three pairs of waveguides overnight out time. That's a great start, thanks.
Hi Scott
Yes, I know and that is weighing heavily on my mind right now. It will also help with the waveguide situation and possibly getting pre-orders for them too.
But we are very close and there is now impetus to do it. I am in full loudspeaker mode with Elsinore kits too, and will stay there till it is done.
Hi Scott
Yes, I know and that is weighing heavily on my mind right now. It will also help with the waveguide situation and possibly getting pre-orders for them too.
But we are very close and there is now impetus to do it. I am in full loudspeaker mode with Elsinore kits too, and will stay there till it is done.
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Found it!
A couple of things to note:
1. The rising response below 10KHz is the Waveguide "gain" and that it flattened out with the use of a much smaller 1st order series capacitor in the crossover.
2. The main one in the graph is the GREEN trace, this is slightly (15 degrees) off-axis and about the angle the Elsinores are designed to be listened to.
3. The impedance is not really changed from normal.
Took me a while to find it.
Cheers, Joe
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Thanks a lot Joe,
And for the explanation.
I love the sound of the Elsinores, especially the mid and above, and will try to use the tweeter and the wg in a MLTL design with ss8531. Just for fun. That will push me to learn a little bit of design, xo design and measuring for the first time. Selecting software and mic to be the first step to overcome. ��
I did start a thread for it here and got asked about the Elsinores (that I mention as inspiration). I guess you could have one more builder of them from that conversation. ��
And for the explanation.
I love the sound of the Elsinores, especially the mid and above, and will try to use the tweeter and the wg in a MLTL design with ss8531. Just for fun. That will push me to learn a little bit of design, xo design and measuring for the first time. Selecting software and mic to be the first step to overcome. ��
I did start a thread for it here and got asked about the Elsinores (that I mention as inspiration). I guess you could have one more builder of them from that conversation. ��
I would love others to use it in their own design, it would help facilitate moving them and be good financially as helping cement the future supplies. Demand is a good thing. But also because it would be really interesting to see others use it for their own DIY designs. I would like to offer suggestions when that happens.
If somebody started doing their own design using D2608 & Waveguide combination, they should start the thread and let me know. Some here might also be interested to come across.
Note the current high-pass filter used in the Elsinores, single series cap (1.8uF), then inductor and cap as a null filter (2mH and 33uF) can be adjusted and then bring in another midbass driver that can be crossed over at 3Khz. What I am saying, I can offer a lot of help to those who want to do their own designs, good suggestions, etc.
I now show the link to the group buy in my signature byline below, so perhaps that will increase awareness of availability. I hope that I haven't broken any rules there, but I think I have seen others do similarly.
Cheers, Joe
.
The thread I started is still quite empty. Adding on stuff as I go.
The XO point at 3k Hz is maybe a little high for the SS8531 (7"). But we will figure out what will be best for the SS2608WG and the SS8531 together.
Please follow the thread!
Now I am not going to high jack this thread anymore (although still very much enjoying my Elsinores).
The XO point at 3k Hz is maybe a little high for the SS8531 (7"). But we will figure out what will be best for the SS2608WG and the SS8531 together.
Please follow the thread!
Now I am not going to high jack this thread anymore (although still very much enjoying my Elsinores).
Not suitable for a number of reasons. Lower sensitivity and higher electrical Q, both due to a much heavier cone even if the motor and suspension are the same.
Also ceramic and generally metal time cones will have severe breakups, compare the two responses:
Not hard to figure out which is which. Note the circa 5-8KHz disturbance, not also the difference in sensitivity.
With the MFC cone, this of where the response might be at 15 degrees of axis. I have measured it and it is very smooth, so smooth that a single inductor will work. Distortion measurements are also clean up to 5th harmonic.
If there is one driver that could be interesting to use, it would be the Purifi 6.5" driver with the long-throw (the newer one is more sensitive, but with a lighter cone the Fs is 39Hz, but the real problem is that the lower mass cone has made it to overdamped electrically).
Trust me, I am always looking at what is out there, but suitable drivers are rare and don't have what is needed to make the Elsinores to work.
For those into a heavier discussion, I can suggest this video, but it is very long. Pretty much all the problems discussed in the video have been covered in the Elsinore design, such as impedance modulation, force factor modulation, surround distortion, doppler distortion, and more. But they are tackled in a different way than their in-driver solutions.
LIVE! with PURIFI Co-Founder Lars Risbo!
Interesting that my comments about the impedance modulation of the current of the amplifier did not go well with the usual subtractors that sometimes turn up here and elsewhere, and yet they are cemented in this video. Some may note that I left a comment below the video on this (not in my own name, but not hard to figure out it was me) and Lars Risbo came back and said the point I made was "excellent."
While I am sure I will get more suggestions as to what alternative drivers to use, the ones we ARE using are in themselves GREAT drivers. The fact that they are not expensive is a blessing. These drivers would be worth it even if they were 2-4 times as expensive. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!
Below is the link to the Purifi driver that might be useable, but also prohibitively expensive. Don't even think about changing the tweeter, it is almost a one-of-a-kind.
PTT6.5X08-NFA-01 (PTT6.5W08-01) - PURIFI
Cheers, Joe
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I get so many suggestions about changing drivers. Yes, one of the Sartori does look possible, but then what next? Swapping them in as a direct replacement? No, that won't work. What it really means is a massive amount of work because it has to be computer modeled fully. What changes are then needed to the box design and crossover? At least the front panel needs changing. Need to get new boxes made... all this takes commitment, time and money.
Right now I have to finish the Hamlets for those who have been waiting and waiting...
Also, the driver we are using is a real honey. The polycone MFC is the near direct descendant of the almost immortal Vifa P17WJ no longer available.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/DiscoveryW18/P17WJ-00-08.pdf
In fact, it is superior because we can add external inductance of 0.4mH to match the original Vifa which was 0.55mH versus the MFC at 0.15mH - this makes the responses of the two drivers very similar when going slightly off axis. But the MFC is way more linear when used that way (and sounds like it too).
So I am sure that I will continue to get these suggestions. But what if the MFC (or NRXC) sold for 2-3 times the price, would it be worth it. Yes, it probably would.
Troels Gravesen said that the polycone from Audio Technology 18H52 is not that much better than the SB17MFC35-8 and costs how many times more?
C-Quenze 18 H 52 17 06 SD
Yes, it would likely work in the Elsinores. Would it be better in a meaningful way? Will it even be noticed?
There are not many 6.5" drivers out there with 0.15mH rated inductance and -80dB 5th harmonic distortion at 95db-SPL at 1 Metre, that is 5th harmonic at 0.01% - try to get anything better than that is not easy.
So I am in no rush to make any changes.
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