BassAwdyO said:
Like the Orion that MUCH?
It's driver compliment is very similar to the Madisound Thor/Froy. I have the Millenium tweeter and it's good, but there are undoubtedly better tweeters.
The Orion is an active system so wouldnt that require that his dad's boss buy more Krell?
Some good designs over on htguide that might give the Orion a run.
Overall, above about $1k for a set of stereo speakers, and you can't afford to ignore room interaction. The Orions have a fairly sophisticated approach to this; it's something that can't be overlooked.
The Thor/Froy both have compromises that, in my eyes, make them far inferior to the Orion. The key feature of the Orion that puts it above the Thor or Froy, other than a meticulously designed active crossover with corrective filtering, is dipole bass.
I agree with Daveis about the designs at htguide, and that there may be better tweeters. Likewise, there are better woofers. Specifically, the Dayton Reference subwoofers look like great candidates. There are other contenders as well, but those are the only ones I've personally seen head-to-head test data to convince me. I have yet to see a midrange that will undeniably beat the Orion's midrange. It requires a low crossover to a tweeter, but it has extraordinarily low distortion over its useful range.
I'm still extremely confused by Frog's posts, and skeptical as to what's really going on.
Legendaryfrog, a large part of what makes any forum useful is the reputation behind repeat posters, and the confidence you can get that you are having an honest exchange. I can sympathize that it can be a pain to sign out and sign in, but I encourage you two to sort it out and get individual logins. Failing that, at least identify yourself in each post/thread. I'm sorry if this comes across as hostile, we've all just seen how an interesting thread can go south because someone isn't taking it seriously.
The Thor/Froy both have compromises that, in my eyes, make them far inferior to the Orion. The key feature of the Orion that puts it above the Thor or Froy, other than a meticulously designed active crossover with corrective filtering, is dipole bass.
I agree with Daveis about the designs at htguide, and that there may be better tweeters. Likewise, there are better woofers. Specifically, the Dayton Reference subwoofers look like great candidates. There are other contenders as well, but those are the only ones I've personally seen head-to-head test data to convince me. I have yet to see a midrange that will undeniably beat the Orion's midrange. It requires a low crossover to a tweeter, but it has extraordinarily low distortion over its useful range.
I'm still extremely confused by Frog's posts, and skeptical as to what's really going on.
Legendaryfrog, a large part of what makes any forum useful is the reputation behind repeat posters, and the confidence you can get that you are having an honest exchange. I can sympathize that it can be a pain to sign out and sign in, but I encourage you two to sort it out and get individual logins. Failing that, at least identify yourself in each post/thread. I'm sorry if this comes across as hostile, we've all just seen how an interesting thread can go south because someone isn't taking it seriously.
legendaryfrog said:
I hope your dad is either the owner or carries a lot of weight there.
The subject really is not fit for the effort and dilligence that is being put into the project. But if it sounds good to the builder and the user, there is nothing much we can say.
If I remember correctly, they spent quite a few years to get the BeoLabs to where it is, just matching the curve to drivers, and going through numerous measurements is a huge task. The curves cannot be cloned unless you know the mathematical equation or do a 3D scan of the parts.
Have fun though.
sorry,but you say that your not the 13 year old and that you are an expericened speaker builder and that you build the biolab clone. but you posted this in the biolab thread on page 3
"as a note, im 13, i go to high school, and i have huge DIY motivation. For me, Its more about the innovation of building this rather than acheiving (your) sought after frequency response, off-axis response, etc.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 500 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it."
"as a note, im 13, i go to high school, and i have huge DIY motivation. For me, Its more about the innovation of building this rather than acheiving (your) sought after frequency response, off-axis response, etc.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 500 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it."
gees this is an odd thread...
If I build a Beolab clone, the first thing I would do is take a pic... but no pic available, only camera excuses.
Now I know there are some very clever 13 year olds floating about, but why do I get the feeling this is a troll thread ???
Someone willing to pay $4000 for a speaker built by a 13 year old.. get serious !!!
If I build a Beolab clone, the first thing I would do is take a pic... but no pic available, only camera excuses.
Now I know there are some very clever 13 year olds floating about, but why do I get the feeling this is a troll thread ???
Someone willing to pay $4000 for a speaker built by a 13 year old.. get serious !!!
damn it, just because im 13, it doesnt mean im limited to what other normal 13 year olds do. I am not a normal 13 year old. Undoubtfully, i have more potential than most teens in today's generation.
if, i wer to totally screw this up, my family would be in no danger of any major loses. My dad's boss, Vlad, burns money on useless crap each day. whats another 4 grand on a pair of speakers.
to quote myself:
"as a note, im 13, i go to high school, and i have huge DIY motivation. For me, Its more about the innovation of building this rather than acheiving (your) sought after frequency response, off-axis response, etc.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 5000 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it."
notice that i said "for me"
the above is totally true, WHEN I BUILD SPEAKERS FOR MYSELF.
i get that the beolabs took countless measurements to get to what they are today. again, that ws not my goal when i built tham.
just like sooongsc said, its more about sounding good than being acoustically correct.
to clear something up, i WILL build my own cabinet for these speakers
/Ken, 13
i hope this thread dies.
if, i wer to totally screw this up, my family would be in no danger of any major loses. My dad's boss, Vlad, burns money on useless crap each day. whats another 4 grand on a pair of speakers.
to quote myself:
"as a note, im 13, i go to high school, and i have huge DIY motivation. For me, Its more about the innovation of building this rather than acheiving (your) sought after frequency response, off-axis response, etc.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 5000 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it."
notice that i said "for me"
the above is totally true, WHEN I BUILD SPEAKERS FOR MYSELF.
i get that the beolabs took countless measurements to get to what they are today. again, that ws not my goal when i built tham.
just like sooongsc said, its more about sounding good than being acoustically correct.
to clear something up, i WILL build my own cabinet for these speakers
/Ken, 13
i hope this thread dies.
I realise you are getting a tough time here, but you know, a bit of modesty goes a long way to not getting up peoples noses.
If you really do have this $3k to blow, why are you not discussing some of the ideas that have been posted and ideas you have? It might get you further than just biting back about ageist comments.
I strongly suggest you build a quality but simple 2-way design and if you want, you can then put the super-tweeter on top at about 10KHz with a 1st order Xover. You could even have it switchable so you can turn it on and off and compare to the normal tweeter going right up to 20KHz.
Another design idea to try other than the Audio Technology and RT8II planar magnetic ribbon is the Supravox 285GMF again with the RT8II. The Supravox is a more interesting and ‘individual’ speaker. If he already has a Krell system he might appreciate something with a bit of a different flavour, if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Hi-Vi RT8II because it can Xover right down around 2KHz or so and still has good off-axis response right up to 20KHz and over. It also has extremely low distortion and a superb CSD plot and a flat impedance. Everything you want for a SOTA design really. Since it does actually have a slight lower off-axis response at 20KHz than some smaller dome tweeters, it would also be a good candidate for giving the Fostex super-tweeter a go.
It sounds like so far the speakers you have built have mainly been about looks and sounding good, but not sounding super good. I suggest now is the time to learn a thing or two about measurements and how to design a slightly more accurate speaker as well as it sounding and looking good. There are some good articles about to get you going so just ask if you want links. But lets hear some of your thoughts on this design first.
If you really do have this $3k to blow, why are you not discussing some of the ideas that have been posted and ideas you have? It might get you further than just biting back about ageist comments.
I strongly suggest you build a quality but simple 2-way design and if you want, you can then put the super-tweeter on top at about 10KHz with a 1st order Xover. You could even have it switchable so you can turn it on and off and compare to the normal tweeter going right up to 20KHz.
Another design idea to try other than the Audio Technology and RT8II planar magnetic ribbon is the Supravox 285GMF again with the RT8II. The Supravox is a more interesting and ‘individual’ speaker. If he already has a Krell system he might appreciate something with a bit of a different flavour, if you know what I mean. I like the idea of the Hi-Vi RT8II because it can Xover right down around 2KHz or so and still has good off-axis response right up to 20KHz and over. It also has extremely low distortion and a superb CSD plot and a flat impedance. Everything you want for a SOTA design really. Since it does actually have a slight lower off-axis response at 20KHz than some smaller dome tweeters, it would also be a good candidate for giving the Fostex super-tweeter a go.
It sounds like so far the speakers you have built have mainly been about looks and sounding good, but not sounding super good. I suggest now is the time to learn a thing or two about measurements and how to design a slightly more accurate speaker as well as it sounding and looking good. There are some good articles about to get you going so just ask if you want links. But lets hear some of your thoughts on this design first.
Tenson said:
you know, the supravox does sound interesting. assuming its not to costly, it could be crossed over at 2-4k to a mid-bass of some sort, then cross to the super tweet somewhere under 10k
alternatively, the previously suggested TAD could be used in place of the supravox.
as for the cabinet, i'll be starting a larger accapella as seen on this website:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AcapellaSEas.htm
basically same design except enlarged.
This thread smells a lot like the "How do I wire my 1500 watt speakers" thread.
Lots of talk about the amazing speakers you have built, and the even more amazing speakers you will build, but very short on photos of the work, or any real progress.
You'll get a lot more respect if you actually show your work. You don't know anyone with a camera?
Lots of talk about the amazing speakers you have built, and the even more amazing speakers you will build, but very short on photos of the work, or any real progress.
You'll get a lot more respect if you actually show your work. You don't know anyone with a camera?
Frog's 13year old personna might be a stalking horse for an insecure middle aged beginner. Who knows?
Give him the benefit of doubt? But quit the "wasting our time" harangue. If your curiosity keeps you revisiting this thead, it's your own fault. Hell, he hasn't even posted enough images to abuse any bandwidth here. I think it's actually a fascinating little drama.
Sounds like his dad's boss may be being awfully indulgent toward the hobbies of an associates son, but perhaps only relatively? This could be lunch money for a 13 year old in some neighborhoods. Might be repugnant to some, but that's a nasty bit of reverse discrimination that would be better gotten over - especially if he's looking for some technical help.
It'd be a shame if real enthusiasm (if that's what it is) was throttled by misunderstanding. A twenty year old mind stuck with a 13 year olds social graces is going to get his nose bloodied a bit. I'd hate to see him apply such precocity to a life of crime (every senator started somewhere), so I hope he sticks this out somehow.
Give him the benefit of doubt? But quit the "wasting our time" harangue. If your curiosity keeps you revisiting this thead, it's your own fault. Hell, he hasn't even posted enough images to abuse any bandwidth here. I think it's actually a fascinating little drama.
Sounds like his dad's boss may be being awfully indulgent toward the hobbies of an associates son, but perhaps only relatively? This could be lunch money for a 13 year old in some neighborhoods. Might be repugnant to some, but that's a nasty bit of reverse discrimination that would be better gotten over - especially if he's looking for some technical help.
It'd be a shame if real enthusiasm (if that's what it is) was throttled by misunderstanding. A twenty year old mind stuck with a 13 year olds social graces is going to get his nose bloodied a bit. I'd hate to see him apply such precocity to a life of crime (every senator started somewhere), so I hope he sticks this out somehow.
not easy fore a young unexperienced kid to stand up against so many - you made him go in defence mode with an ugly resultLets be reasonable and give him some slack
"how to wire my 15000watt speakers" .... well, I thought I had learned to keep away and let the kid do his own thing - but at the time I thought it would be a shame to waste hard earned money
But we seem to tend to repeat our mistakes much too often, agrettably
But I guess it is a bit tempting with this budget
I think "the boss" should have something worth his money - It would be a shame if the speakers was to be thrown away after a short while
But I admitt, its a tough call - what to give a man that has it all
And this custom made filter.... hard to say how that will turn out
Maybe this would blend perfect with the tweeter, but its a major problem that you dislike fullrange speakers so much - but maybe you havent heard the real thing yet - and it might beat his main system
http://www.aer-loudspeakers.com/eng/md2-e.htm
legendaryfrog said:
So he took my advice and shoved it up his bum?
...sorry couldn't resist 
I'm not a huge fan of AMT's, the ones I have seen appear to have a rather narrow directivity in the highs. It would probably be good with the super-tweeter though. Maybe a Mundorf MagS 5 or AMT 2830? Not sure what the point is when the RT8II is available though!
What drivers did you use in the BeoClones? It does look EXACTLY like a Beolab 5.
I think you need to start looking at the off-axis response for drivers. The Supravox would not like being crossed at 4KHz because when you go off-axis it will have a big dip (about 6dB) in the response. 2KHz is about as high as I would like to go. It would make a nice speaker though, and something he wouldn't have been able to buy off the shelf very easily.
Oh, I think Supravox can produce an open baffle version of the 285 if you want them to. That’s another design option.
Lets hear some of your thoughts on these designs and what you are going to do, as I think that’s about all you are getting on the ideas front.
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