I have heard good things about Mr Frakers' TL for the new 604. He has GM to thank for the design, I believe. And Jay Fisher for the aesthetics, stand, etc.
Pano,
How would you proceed to use the trac horn attached to a BIB? i don't see this.
Ciare and BMS both have "Q-perfect" coaxials for BIB's, one inch throats to dial in B&C compression drivers, which I can attest, are ultra-musical, staggeringly good. An existing coax for a favorite comp. driver would be good... one "advantage" of this approach would be through active XO, and therefore using a solid state amp on the cone, and something like SET on the c/d. But more complexity often is just more, and more, in my experience, is less.
Clark,
208es-r? AlNiCo? Is this something coming in measured doses? Or are these TC's famed French purchase?
Pano,
How would you proceed to use the trac horn attached to a BIB? i don't see this.
Ciare and BMS both have "Q-perfect" coaxials for BIB's, one inch throats to dial in B&C compression drivers, which I can attest, are ultra-musical, staggeringly good. An existing coax for a favorite comp. driver would be good... one "advantage" of this approach would be through active XO, and therefore using a solid state amp on the cone, and something like SET on the c/d. But more complexity often is just more, and more, in my experience, is less.
Clark,
208es-r? AlNiCo? Is this something coming in measured doses? Or are these TC's famed French purchase?
dmason said:
Same way as in any box. Horn encased above the cone driver. The 811 horn is 18" wide at the front flange, but gets narrow fast behind that. It's deeper than most cone drivers. The horn body and big old Alnico driver would take up some room in the pointy end of the bass horn. Gotta figure if that will hurt anything.
I'll go take a look at the BMS coax drivers. Never heard them, what are they like?
208es-r
it will be released in spring 2007. a new driver
terry has a pair of 208es, from 2001. they are really something to behold. a whole lotta lanthanum cobalt magnet on those things. I have never hooked them up to a source, but supposedly, from what I read on the japanese sites, they are hyperspeed. some day, he promises to put them into monster walla walla wall of sounds or something. I can't wait.
the 208es-r I think will probably be more and better. problem will be saving up for it. I am a poor college student, and I would like to build more than one pair of cabinets...
I should not post anymore about the driver here though. it will have a qts far too low for BIB use, and will demand ultra rigid most likely orthodox BLH cabinet.
later dudes.
Clark
it will be released in spring 2007. a new driver
terry has a pair of 208es, from 2001. they are really something to behold. a whole lotta lanthanum cobalt magnet on those things. I have never hooked them up to a source, but supposedly, from what I read on the japanese sites, they are hyperspeed. some day, he promises to put them into monster walla walla wall of sounds or something. I can't wait.
the 208es-r I think will probably be more and better. problem will be saving up for it. I am a poor college student, and I would like to build more than one pair of cabinets...
I should not post anymore about the driver here though. it will have a qts far too low for BIB use, and will demand ultra rigid most likely orthodox BLH cabinet.
later dudes.
Clark
Really? Don't you believe it. The 225 has a Qt of 0.16, and believe me, nobody who's heard the pair I built using them for a mate has compained about bass performance. Solid 25Hz; and they're just getting warmed up. Last time I was round at his place, we fired up the Alan Parsons 4.0 quadraphonic mix of Dark Side of the Moon. No, FR drivers (no FR driver) can do dynamics anything like a good 3 way horn loaded setup (VOTT anyone?). But these made the best fist of it I've ever heard from single drivers.
BTW -where did those 3 pages come from when I wasn't looking?
I was only working away for a day, and at a John Andrson / Ridck Wakeman acoustic concert last night.
Greg -you've got me to the point where I'm thinking 604s will have to be my next port of call. Unfortunately, I don't have any children that I can sell to laboratories for research purposes, but I'm sur ei can borrow some...
BTW -where did those 3 pages come from when I wasn't looking?
I was only working away for a day, and at a John Andrson / Ridck Wakeman acoustic concert last night.Greg -you've got me to the point where I'm thinking 604s will have to be my next port of call. Unfortunately, I don't have any children that I can sell to laboratories for research purposes, but I'm sur ei can borrow some...
Kensai, if you email me i will send you the response curves from WinISD for the ff225k... it said you don't accept emails thru this forum.
godzilla3@hotmail.com
Peace,
Godzilla
godzilla3@hotmail.com
Peace,
Godzilla
well then, perhaps I will give an 8 inch bib a go some time. larger surface area... perhaps I was judging from my experience in the 6 inch realm. low qt=not much bass in that realm, amongg the fostex stuff at least. this forum is a great place. it encourages me to build build build.
the ff225 is a nice driver. I wish to try one some time. long way down the road though.
Clark
the ff225 is a nice driver. I wish to try one some time. long way down the road though.
Clark
Scottmoose said:Really? Don't you believe it. The 225 has a Qt of 0.16, and believe me, nobody who's heard the pair I built using them for a mate has compained about bass performance. Solid 25Hz; and they're just getting warmed up. Last time I was round at his place, we fired up the Alan Parsons 4.0 quadraphonic mix of Dark Side of the Moon. No, FR drivers (no FR driver) can do dynamics anything like a good 3 way horn loaded setup (VOTT anyone?). But these made the best fist of it I've ever heard from single drivers.
BTW -where did those 3 pages come from when I wasn't looking?
Greg -you've got me to the point where I'm thinking 604s will have to be my next port of call. Unfortunately, I don't have any children that I can sell to laboratories for research purposes, but I'm sur ei can borrow some...
So many fine choices, so little time. Let's go shopping on eBay for Altec.
Dr Moose,
What was that show like? They played the night before Angela got back home to Cardiff. I have read the Wake still take the cake, playing fluid as ever. They made a huge splash in Quebec City awhile ago, with 150,000 showing up for Return To The Center of The Earth. Always shone on a piano. I hope they soon team back up with their now hempified brothers Chris and Steve. The world needs them.
Pano'
Tone Tubby has 12 + 15 cones for JBL. Mmmmmm
Dr Moose,
What was that show like? They played the night before Angela got back home to Cardiff. I have read the Wake still take the cake, playing fluid as ever. They made a huge splash in Quebec City awhile ago, with 150,000 showing up for Return To The Center of The Earth. Always shone on a piano. I hope they soon team back up with their now hempified brothers Chris and Steve. The world needs them.
Pano'
Tone Tubby has 12 + 15 cones for JBL. Mmmmmm
Off topic a bit...Hemp
Your friend is obvoiusly a man of impeccable taste! EL34's and BR Hemptones are exactly what I'm listening to (Los Lobos' "Kiko and the Lavender Moon" at the moment). I wish I could give you a "solid description", but it's still early days with the Hemps, the cabinets are unfinished and undamped, and I don't have a broad enough experience with systems other than my own to feel confident in making broad proclamations. Not that that has stopped me before...
The Hemp's are under two weeks old, and still breaking in. They sound a bit bright, singers sound too 'nasal', but that's smoothing out day by day. Bass is good at least down to 40 Hz in my room, I feel no need for a sub, but the balance is a little hot. I'm trying to be patient as they break in, but I do wonder if a mild treble shelf / BSC circuit will be required in the end. Or a little damping on the whizzer.
Much of my listening (like now) to the Hemps is while I'm sitting across the room at the computer with them behind me. Every so often I hear someting from them that makes me turn around and stare slack jawed at the space between the speakers. Last night it was Norah Jones' piano hanging in space just inside the right speaker. The other speakers I've had in this room (like my FR125 BIB's) have never grabbed my attention like that. There is some magic in these speakers, but it will take some time and playing around to draw it all out.
blumenco said:
Your friend is obvoiusly a man of impeccable taste!
EL34's and BR Hemptones are exactly what I'm listening to (Los Lobos' "Kiko and the Lavender Moon" at the moment). I wish I could give you a "solid description", but it's still early days with the Hemps, the cabinets are unfinished and undamped, and I don't have a broad enough experience with systems other than my own to feel confident in making broad proclamations. Not that that has stopped me before...The Hemp's are under two weeks old, and still breaking in. They sound a bit bright, singers sound too 'nasal', but that's smoothing out day by day. Bass is good at least down to 40 Hz in my room, I feel no need for a sub, but the balance is a little hot. I'm trying to be patient as they break in, but I do wonder if a mild treble shelf / BSC circuit will be required in the end. Or a little damping on the whizzer.
Much of my listening (like now) to the Hemps is while I'm sitting across the room at the computer with them behind me. Every so often I hear someting from them that makes me turn around and stare slack jawed at the space between the speakers. Last night it was Norah Jones' piano hanging in space just inside the right speaker. The other speakers I've had in this room (like my FR125 BIB's) have never grabbed my attention like that. There is some magic in these speakers, but it will take some time and playing around to draw it all out.
Attachments
The hemptones' break-in was a real roller coaster ride in my experience. Sometimes they sounded just awful, and abruptly changed, and vice versa. After about +100 hours, they very suddenly smoothed out. I suspect they need upward of 1000 hours of real playing to soften up. Also, like the Sigmae, if you do not play them for a time, they become "new" again, their break in somehow will backslide. I would say they have all the resolution of the Fostex E series, possibly more, or different, a more rounded, warmer tone. More musical. This is all about TONE.
I would suggest adding some Dacron polyester fluff in behind the whizzer, maybe tying it in with dental floss. I do not think they will need any correction which negates the "active" aspect, and can wreak havoc with the sonic of most tube amps. Play around with it. It is a killer driver, properly rolled, and ignited. It will pick up some sensitivity, and you should begin to get some more grunt in the lower register in the near future.
I bet PP EL34 has some nice sparkle and spank. EL84 very very smooth with these things also. Actually, they sound damn good with any amplifier, it seems, not picky at all.
I would suggest adding some Dacron polyester fluff in behind the whizzer, maybe tying it in with dental floss. I do not think they will need any correction which negates the "active" aspect, and can wreak havoc with the sonic of most tube amps. Play around with it. It is a killer driver, properly rolled, and ignited. It will pick up some sensitivity, and you should begin to get some more grunt in the lower register in the near future.
I bet PP EL34 has some nice sparkle and spank. EL84 very very smooth with these things also. Actually, they sound damn good with any amplifier, it seems, not picky at all.
Rick & John? Fantstic. Beyond sensational. Especially when to finish the first half they did an 14 minute version of Awaken. Ever think that could be done with just an acoustic guitar and a piano? No? Neither did I. But it can. John's vocals are as ethereal as ever -that was the best form I've ever heard him in. The hall has a huge oval glass centre-piece to the ceiling, and 2-tier art-deco style circles, which gives it a wonderful acoustic for that sort of music. He's got a lovely touch on his guitars now too -some jazz creeping into the style. Simple, but elegant. Rick was as good as I've heard him too -you can tell he was classically trained, but very few classical pianists seem to be able to do get the varied weight and stress as well as he can. He squeezed in some lovely solo improvisations at the end of songs that had John drifting off into a different world. Great to hear him with just a piano again. I think they're doing a studio album together, which should be well worth looking out for. I hear whispers there might be a new Yes album coming next year too. Hope so, as you say Dan, the world needs these people. Somebody needs to spread a little love & positive energy.
That was the last performance of Rick's last ever full tour, so it was quite an emotional evening (his doctor's have told him to stop before he kills himself. I'm certain he'll continue to do one-off shows, but still the end of an era in one sense). I got a lyric sheet of Time And A Word signed by them both, which just added the icing on the cake really.
604E? No idea at this second it time; I'll have to look up the driver specs. The 3in Fostex units? Personally I'd say Fs is way too high for them to be particularly great in this load; you'd need helper bass horns. I'll have a look when I get chance. Sorry I'm being a bit slow at present guys -just found out one of the courses I was supposed to be teaching in the new year has been brought forward. All fine and dandy; trouble is, it's never been run before, so I have to write the entire module from scratch, and I've got ten days to do it in before it needs to go to the printers.
That was the last performance of Rick's last ever full tour, so it was quite an emotional evening (his doctor's have told him to stop before he kills himself. I'm certain he'll continue to do one-off shows, but still the end of an era in one sense). I got a lyric sheet of Time And A Word signed by them both, which just added the icing on the cake really.
604E? No idea at this second it time; I'll have to look up the driver specs. The 3in Fostex units? Personally I'd say Fs is way too high for them to be particularly great in this load; you'd need helper bass horns. I'll have a look when I get chance. Sorry I'm being a bit slow at present guys -just found out one of the courses I was supposed to be teaching in the new year has been brought forward. All fine and dandy; trouble is, it's never been run before, so I have to write the entire module from scratch, and I've got ten days to do it in before it needs to go to the printers.
Yes, that is Jay Fisher's Fostex Rx horn for the FE168es-r which he picked up from J.A.Pan & Co. He swears by them. Also, Jay designed the look of the Big Boppers above, and GM calc'd the load itself. It is a load based on Martin's worksheets, with porting on the bottom. The stands are things of beauty, and you cannot see the lines from the front. That pair is Jay's, I believe, which now reside in Santa Monica, at his home. I will be visiting Jay and his wife, and hearing the speakers, in January. I look forward to that listening session. I believe two pairs have been built so far.
I know Jay is eternally grateful to GM for such a successful execution of design.
Dr Moose,
Awaken using piano and acoustic guitar? I really hope they release an album of this schtick. Everything I have read suggests that they really pulled off a great set, just the two of them. All they have to do is show up and the audience goes nuts. I have never seen such love and affection for performers. I have seen Yes 28 times between 1974-2003. Each show left a sonic impact crater.
I know Jay is eternally grateful to GM for such a successful execution of design.
Dr Moose,
Awaken using piano and acoustic guitar? I really hope they release an album of this schtick. Everything I have read suggests that they really pulled off a great set, just the two of them. All they have to do is show up and the audience goes nuts. I have never seen such love and affection for performers. I have seen Yes 28 times between 1974-2003. Each show left a sonic impact crater.
dmason said:
Greets!
Late serial # 604-8H with Tangerine phase plug, earlier units don't have them and they switched to mud motors with the -K series. Since they're fairly rare and well known to the cognoscenti, you'll probably need to get some Federal funding to bid on them, assuming any see the light of day. I was offered a re-buildable pair several years ago for two k bills, but I'm an indentured slave to the medical community, so all I could do was drool on them.
Regardless, today's mud magnet motors are just as good, if not better IMO, so all things considered, buying new Iconics makes the most sense to me if you plan to keep them for the long haul.
GM
Oops, sorry about the lack of text, but at least I got the quote right. Which hemp driver are you using? Keep in mind that the Omega/now A Brown Sound version has a shorting ring, so it could really use a shelving circuit to knock the treble down. The later Hemp Acoustics versions don't have a shorting ring, so the upper end is about 5db less hot. I have both a version with the shorting ring and one with out. I've been thinking about building a circuit to add to the former. Mine are darn close to the wall, so I don't use BSC. It sure wouldn't hurt either if they are out from the wall.
As soon as the election is over, I hope to get some BIB's built.
Paul
As soon as the election is over, I hope to get some BIB's built.
Paul
Re: please.....
Greets!
None of these are suitable for a BIB IMO. Building a TOP sub concept and putting them in a baffle length cavity (IB) on the face of it is the 'Hot Ticket' IMO.
Anyway, the only way you're going to get any meaningful bass out of the FE87E is to jack it up 6 ft and slide a different driver into its place. Even a no holds barred optimum BLH only goes to a theoretical 84 Hz based on published specs.
Don't have specs on the Fe87, but I assume it's a similar design.
The published specs of the FF85K OTOH is near ideal for a BLH, but it will be a long, slow expanding affair, so probably several folds in even a BIB height cab.
GM
blumenco said:
Greets!
None of these are suitable for a BIB IMO. Building a TOP sub concept and putting them in a baffle length cavity (IB) on the face of it is the 'Hot Ticket' IMO.
Anyway, the only way you're going to get any meaningful bass out of the FE87E is to jack it up 6 ft and slide a different driver into its place. Even a no holds barred optimum BLH only goes to a theoretical 84 Hz based on published specs.
Don't have specs on the Fe87, but I assume it's a similar design.
The published specs of the FF85K OTOH is near ideal for a BLH, but it will be a long, slow expanding affair, so probably several folds in even a BIB height cab.
GM