Scottmoose said:
Greets!
Rick Wakeman, now there's a 'blast from the past'! His 'Wive's of Henry VIII' was one of my reference vinyls (along with DSOTM) until Altec came out with a demo that had a re-EQ'd version of 'Catherine Howard' on it that blew it away. More than one so-called $high end$ speaker system was reduced to rubble with it.
I know the problem well.........
GM
ultrakaz said:
Greets!
Are you driving them with SS, or........? The increased effective Qts due to series resistance will affect the design. Regardless, the BIB is a pretty serious sub duty alignment and a 'fun' speaker for wider BW apps, but if you haven't found anything worth building after years of searching, I doubt the BIB will do it for you.
GM
dmason said:
Hi dmason,
Good that I saved that image. The 168ESII was the limited ed some years ago. I think he followed up on it when he found out some guy in J.A. Pan exports some for sale, and then some months later, voila! He posted the nicely finished D37k's on the 'olde parsimony' FR forum. The 168ESII would be an ultimate 6" driver BIB with dual magnets and extended HF.
The Wall-o-Sound spiral tractrix backhorn pair TC built for Gordon Rankin looks real sweet. Those limited edition drivers would be at home in that type of enclosure too. http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/wwws-fano.jpg
fred
GM said:
GM,
Thanks for the response.
I use both SS and tubes, but if I have to choose I'd say tubes.
The TL for the 604E does not look that big. However, if the BIB is not much bigger I'd go for it, providing I could work out the +15" depth of the 604E driver. Mid 30Hz would be nice. And my 604E has only seen one cabinet (Bill Wood's half horn).
Regarding BIB... I had a lot of fun trying many different drivers in my 72" x 12" x 18" BIBs. You are right about BIBs really can't be big enough as my smaller drivers gave surprisingly (really) good results. I've found that I can tune the bass response simply by moving the BIBs closer to the listening position. And to compensate for the midrange dip in the larger drivers I've front loaded them. I'm about ready to move on now.....
Thanks again.
dmason said:
I'm on that roller coaster, just impatient to get to the next ride. Agreed that the BSC would be the last thing to try. I'll try the poly fluff this weekend, sounds like a good tweak. Just remembered, I've got a little stash of wool to use, somehow a natural material seems more in keeping with the hemp cones.
More grunt would be fine, more sensitivity I could do without. I already had to bypass the active line stage of my preamp, the sensitivity of the Hemp's brought up the noise floor of the line stage so much it was unlistenable! I'm running passive from the volume pot now and still can play way louder than I need (11' x 14' x 8' room, not a lot of volume needed).
pjanda1 said:
These are the Hemp Acoustics FR8.0DIY's (from E-speakers.com), not the Omega version. Also running them within a few inches of the wall. I built wide, shallow cabinets with that in mind, both to get away from BSC and to gain some floor space in the room. BIB's were good for that, too (this is a BIB thread, isn't it?).
Greets!
You're welcome!
TL? I've only helped folks do MLTLs for 604s. As I indicated, the BIB lives up to its moniker, so a 15" deep driver shouldn't be a problem, though folding it to fit with the driver around ear height may be:
L = 300"
CSA = 770"^2
zdriver = 65.1"
Even this big it won't tolerate much series R if the sim is ~accurate, so I recommend SS for the woofer and tubes for the horn.
GM
You're welcome!
TL? I've only helped folks do MLTLs for 604s. As I indicated, the BIB lives up to its moniker, so a 15" deep driver shouldn't be a problem, though folding it to fit with the driver around ear height may be:
L = 300"
CSA = 770"^2
zdriver = 65.1"
Even this big it won't tolerate much series R if the sim is ~accurate, so I recommend SS for the woofer and tubes for the horn.
GM
Attachments
GM said:
If the sim you posted is correct, then no, my room is not big enough for even one. No 14' ceilings here.
Never said they had to be Altec.
Yes indeed. But there was a nasty looking bunch of natives with spears blocking the road. There was simply no pleasing them. So I took off cross country and went to the beach, instead.
Perhaps ..."inappropriate" would be a better term; Shame it is out of the question, unless someone has a school auditorium. Look at that wonderous FR plot and tell me you wouldnt WANT this to be built. Fabulous biamping with SS and tubes.
Remember, for anyone wanting to use a two way coaxial, there are units that would do the job nicely. B&C make a stunning series of 10 inch coaxials, Ciare, BMS, all have contenders whose performance parameters play into our hands, and 18Sound and Beyma both have high performance 8 inch coaxials designed for studio monitor type speakers. Maybe the Tannoy System 6-8-10-12 coaxials would be a try... Apparently, D Wiggins is working on a hemp cone 10 inch coaxial with XBL^2 motor and higher Q, but who knows. So there are alternatives, to those thinking about something more involved than a wideband driver.
Personally, I find this horn based design combined with the idea of solid state AND tube amplification, along with point source sonics, pretty sexy... the power and the glory.
Remember, for anyone wanting to use a two way coaxial, there are units that would do the job nicely. B&C make a stunning series of 10 inch coaxials, Ciare, BMS, all have contenders whose performance parameters play into our hands, and 18Sound and Beyma both have high performance 8 inch coaxials designed for studio monitor type speakers. Maybe the Tannoy System 6-8-10-12 coaxials would be a try... Apparently, D Wiggins is working on a hemp cone 10 inch coaxial with XBL^2 motor and higher Q, but who knows. So there are alternatives, to those thinking about something more involved than a wideband driver.
Personally, I find this horn based design combined with the idea of solid state AND tube amplification, along with point source sonics, pretty sexy... the power and the glory.
I want this to be built. Oh yes. I would also like to spend the night with Polly Harvey, but sadly I suspect both will remain a dream. 
The Tannoy units in particular do look interesting. Although designed for in-wall / ceiling applications, if Tannoy have had anything to do with them, they shold be pretty good. They haven't gained the reputation they currently have by building junk. Will have to take a look at them properly at some point. As a bonus, you can claim you own a pair of Tannoy DC drivers, without stretching the truth too far. I still miss my 12in Monitor Golds.
The Tannoy units in particular do look interesting. Although designed for in-wall / ceiling applications, if Tannoy have had anything to do with them, they shold be pretty good. They haven't gained the reputation they currently have by building junk. Will have to take a look at them properly at some point. As a bonus, you can claim you own a pair of Tannoy DC drivers, without stretching the truth too far. I still miss my 12in Monitor Golds.
ultrakaz said:
Greets!
What did you expect? A true BIB loads to an octave below Fs and all these vintage drivers have a low Fs, Qts, high Vas to keep efficiency high enough to match to low power/high output impedance systems. At ~68 ft^3 gross, it would have to be folded up similar to a K-horn and be at least 6 ft tall, but corner loaded, a pair wouldn't take up all that much usable room 'real estate', creating a 'wall of sound'. From a construction POV, it would need to be folded such that it could be tied (stacked) together vertically as three modules to make moving/installing/removing them a 'one person with a handtruck' affair through a typical width doorway.
Anyway, the room would have to be acoustically large enough to justify such a low tuning or you'd wind up attenuating too much of its sub BW output due to room gain, so the 'it's too big' argument isn't applicable per se since it's all about scale.
The MLTLs I've done range from ~10-27 ft^3 net depending on the system's output impedance and room size, etc., though obviously it can be scaled to whatever half space F3 or size you're willing to accept, so email me your performance criteria/limitations. Stuffing is minimal at most and historically folks wind up using even < what I would use or MJK's WS predict for smoothest response, so all I do is suggest a starting point and it will be up to you to find your 'optimum'.
GM
Well, as much as I would like someone to build those monsters (preferably me, but not going to happen in this incarnation ), I knew it would probably remain a 'pipe dream' , so scaling it to a more typical BIB's height/F3 using SS power for the woofer:
L = 138"
CSA = ~660"^2 (recommend ~21.63" W x 30.56" D)
zdriver = 30"
Still large, but at least within the realm of possibly getting built.
GM
), I knew it would probably remain a 'pipe dream' , so scaling it to a more typical BIB's height/F3 using SS power for the woofer:L = 138"
CSA = ~660"^2 (recommend ~21.63" W x 30.56" D)
zdriver = 30"
Still large, but at least within the realm of possibly getting built.
GM
Attachments
panomaniac said:
Greets!
See my folding notes in post 1635, though if my already dim memory serves me, still way too big, as is the 'short' version I recently posted.
Understood, but all drivers I feel are suitable substitutes will have similar space requirements.
Regrettably, my memory of the thread is too dim to have a clue what you're alluding to........
GM
dmason said:
Greets!
Correctomundo, we need to use more current drivers with a higher Fs, lower Vas optimized for small cabs and ancillary sub systems, so B&C 12CXB or similar.
Yep, the best of both 'worlds' to some, though I prefer bi-amped zero -fb (or at least minimal as worst case) SS since no reasonable size/cost SET can give me truly 'live' dynamics at vanishingly low distortion.
GM
go look at Onur's site...
Onur used one of the (sadly now not available) 8" coax designs in his Singular design and achieved 28 Hz with significant output. There is also the Radian 8" coax to consider with many users who praise it much. Regards Moray James.
http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/
Onur used one of the (sadly now not available) 8" coax designs in his Singular design and achieved 28 Hz with significant output. There is also the Radian 8" coax to consider with many users who praise it much. Regards Moray James.
http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/
The Radian, tonally, would be spectacular in a BIB; Four years ago GM calc'd, and I built an MLTL for the Radian 508, which had a wonderful sound to it, but very little bass, and a very big 60 inch? tall cabinet. The Fs=73 on this unit.
The Tannoy iW8, or System 800, would be my vote. I suspect they are the same driver. Also, there is the Beyma 8CX with low Fs, buckets of Xmax.
The Tannoy iW8, or System 800, would be my vote. I suspect they are the same driver. Also, there is the Beyma 8CX with low Fs, buckets of Xmax.