I think you're correct that it's indeed a 2nd order with some tuning on the capacitor. Sorry for the confusion.
I will do some simulations for you later. I can't find any specs on what the crossover frequency is between the woofer and horn tweeter. Any ideas?
Also, is the schematic in post 10 the original crossover of the KG4.5?
not sure how old your speaker really is
but you wont have to go much more than 20years back in history to realise they didnt know half of it
lots of what we know today, or think we know, is based on modern computer tech
the basics were known, but not the smaller details
and those details are what makes it like night or day
are you sure your tweeter is any good at all ?
crossover are not like magic that will cure anything
but you wont have to go much more than 20years back in history to realise they didnt know half of it
lots of what we know today, or think we know, is based on modern computer tech
the basics were known, but not the smaller details
and those details are what makes it like night or day
are you sure your tweeter is any good at all ?
crossover are not like magic that will cure anything
Only specs I've been able to find:
KG 4.5 | Klipsch
Michael:
I don't know what the xover frequency is supposed to be. Klipsch specs don't say. It's a fairly cheap horn tweeter (although a Tractrix horn).
The schematic in post #10 is the original, and matches what is in my speakers.
strawberry:
I think the reason for the "hole of silence" in the xover's electrical response is that Klipsch used the 10" woofer way higher than it was designed to go. Also, the tweeter is being used pretty low, and I'll bet it's pretty honky around 2 to 5 kHz. Hence the mid-suckout electrically, probably to balance the fierce mids.
Also, in typical Klipsch fashion, this is meant to be a 95dB/1w/1m sensitive 2-way. I think it's more like 93dB, but Klipsch is known for high efficiency, and that's what this speaker is about.
tinitus:
The Klipsch KG4.5 was made from 1994 to 1997.
The tweeter is nothing special, but it actually sounds good in many ways. Orchestral chimes, celeste, gongs, etc. actually sound nice. So do brass; nice and blatty (in a good way). Surprisingly, strings don't sound half bad. They're a little "hot", but kind of good. Col legno and muted strings have a pretty accurate sheen, something like in real life.
The problem is an electronic edge (sizzle) to vocal sibilants, relatively close-miked trumpets, saxophones, and the cymbals in jazz and pop recordings.
The only reason I bought the speakers was first, because they were cheap and I was looking for efficient speakers for a 6 watt per channel triode amp, and I thought I heard potential in them. They are "fun" sounding. But they get tiring.
I keep a pair of Snell J/III's next to them, as a sanity check. I've always thought that was a good sounding speaker, and an easy-ish load for weenie triode amps. Not quite efficient enough for 6 watts, but close.
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I'm going to try the tweeters with no modifications, and put the 10 ohm, 22uF Zobel across the woofer, with the thin sheet of poly batting in front of the tweeters. It's a rough and ready solution, but if it sounds OK, why not?
If it comes to re-designing the crossover, I'd be more inclined to find a good mid-tweeter with 93dB efficiency, and use the woofer only to about 700 Hz, and cross the mid-tweeter above that. For me, the cabinet is the hardest part. This woofer does pretty well, and I think would be better if crossed over lower.
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KG 4.5 | Klipsch
Michael:
I don't know what the xover frequency is supposed to be. Klipsch specs don't say. It's a fairly cheap horn tweeter (although a Tractrix horn).
The schematic in post #10 is the original, and matches what is in my speakers.
strawberry:
I think the reason for the "hole of silence" in the xover's electrical response is that Klipsch used the 10" woofer way higher than it was designed to go. Also, the tweeter is being used pretty low, and I'll bet it's pretty honky around 2 to 5 kHz. Hence the mid-suckout electrically, probably to balance the fierce mids.
Also, in typical Klipsch fashion, this is meant to be a 95dB/1w/1m sensitive 2-way. I think it's more like 93dB, but Klipsch is known for high efficiency, and that's what this speaker is about.
tinitus:
The Klipsch KG4.5 was made from 1994 to 1997.
The tweeter is nothing special, but it actually sounds good in many ways. Orchestral chimes, celeste, gongs, etc. actually sound nice. So do brass; nice and blatty (in a good way). Surprisingly, strings don't sound half bad. They're a little "hot", but kind of good. Col legno and muted strings have a pretty accurate sheen, something like in real life.
The problem is an electronic edge (sizzle) to vocal sibilants, relatively close-miked trumpets, saxophones, and the cymbals in jazz and pop recordings.
The only reason I bought the speakers was first, because they were cheap and I was looking for efficient speakers for a 6 watt per channel triode amp, and I thought I heard potential in them. They are "fun" sounding. But they get tiring.
I keep a pair of Snell J/III's next to them, as a sanity check. I've always thought that was a good sounding speaker, and an easy-ish load for weenie triode amps. Not quite efficient enough for 6 watts, but close.
___________________________
I'm going to try the tweeters with no modifications, and put the 10 ohm, 22uF Zobel across the woofer, with the thin sheet of poly batting in front of the tweeters. It's a rough and ready solution, but if it sounds OK, why not?
If it comes to re-designing the crossover, I'd be more inclined to find a good mid-tweeter with 93dB efficiency, and use the woofer only to about 700 Hz, and cross the mid-tweeter above that. For me, the cabinet is the hardest part. This woofer does pretty well, and I think would be better if crossed over lower.
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hmm, btw, higher sensitivity doesnt always mean they will work optimal with very small wattage amps
OR maybe your particular amp just doesnt like your Klipsch very much
other things to consider could be the quality of your source
such speakers could be very 'sensitive' to any kind of anamoli or artefacts
OR maybe your particular amp just doesnt like your Klipsch very much
other things to consider could be the quality of your source
such speakers could be very 'sensitive' to any kind of anamoli or artefacts
I agree. I think a Williamson style of amp would suit this speaker very well. Something with about 15 to 20 dB of global negative feedback around an Ultralinear or pentode output stage. That 'romantic' or 'warm' sound. The zip in these speakers might wake up the sound of that kind of amp. McIntosh MC-225 or one of those Heathkit W amps would be ideal, I think.
I suppose. But there's a sound they put on everything. They're really pretty good, but there's that annoying "hotness" or "sizzle." That's all...
yeah, I know that too
I guess most of us do
I have struggled since I removed my supertweter ribbon
crossover changes, several times each week, through a couple of months
but its beginning to work ok again
positive changes yesterday
even the very best drivers can sound like what you describe, because of crossover
very often its either too dull, or too much of the good
but to get that clean open sound, without 'sideeffects', it can be pretty tricky
I guess most live with just blaming the recording/producer
Im not sure I have ever heard a commercial speaker that could do it
but then, I havent heard any new designs
but somehow I doubt the world have changed that much
...Hence my attraction to extended range drivers. I have a friend who swears by Jordan JX53 in a line array. He's got four per side in a column, with two woofers per channel underneath. It's hard to argue with the results.
I'm getting a pair of Mark Audio Alpair 7's in a couple of days. Hopefully those will compare well with the Jordan drivers.
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It is not a Zobel. Neither does it matter. Any cap with resistor in this position will attempt to move the filter towards second order electrical with some limitation by the resistor, and by the woofer's impedance. Nothing will modify the woofers impedance, for all intents and purposes the RC only modifies its appearance. Nothing special will happen if the R and C values happen to be those of a Zobel, and there is no particular reason why they should be those values.
So far in this thread there is no hard evidence by which to judge the crossover.
I think that would be to balance the response of the horn, which would have an unfiltered efficiency of something over 100dB/1w/1m, with the response falling off drastically as you go up in frequency. Maybe the SPL is the target 93 to 95dB at around 15kHz, the filter rolls off as you go down, which counteracts the increase in SPL from the horn as you go down in frequency.
This is a really compromised design, as any two-way with a 10" woofer is going to be. Add a cheap horn tweeter and ay-yi-yi.
I'm not about to try (and I'm way underqualified) to design a new crossover for these speakers. I keep trying things and I swear I only hurt the sound with everything I've done with resistors and/or capacitors. Maybe a 100 ohm resistor across the tweeter is nice in mellowing it out, but so is a sheet of low-density poly foam in front of the horn.
I might be ready to throw in the towel on this one.
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If the woofer had a DC resistance of 2 ohm, the original set up could well be a Zobel. But to put a 1.0 mH inductor on that would mean a cut off point of 300 Hz, which is bizarre. The nature of the original crossover is a crossover point of 800 Hz, with extra loud bloating around 600 Hz. The original crossover is horrible, painful to listen to.
Yes.
I wish there were some specs or graphs of the drivers involved. That would make for much better guesstimating. But I found nuthin'.
I have an old hp audio generator and a DMM. I guess that's enough to measure driver impedances... No SPL meter or 'scope, though.
As a general statement about this configuration, I quite disagree.
By the way, did you try the drivers on their own yet?
try a series resistor between xo and driver(tweeter)
the one shown before first cap, is that a variable resistor
The RDE 070 is a resettable fuse on the tweeter. Klipsch owners can be a rowdy bunch! These speakers are from down in Arkansas, ya know...
I was told by Bob Crites (who specializes in upgrades for Klipsch stuff) that I don't want to take those out of there.
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