Hi Bjørn
Fair enough, usually the best way when you've got a range of possibilities offering similar, but not quite the same, things. Especially when you've got commercial considerations & requirement for stability as well.
Evidently not, but I'm sure it will be ideal for many people's needs / wants, especially in today's room environments where 'small is king'. I can't pass comment re the base & top, but given the pictures on your site thus far, they look very nice as-is. Possibly a couple of aluminium outriggers with spikes for stability or similar?
Either way, the price mooted on your site (is that correct?) sounds like an outright bargain to me compared to similar things like the new JB3F, which cost more than three times that. To be honest, I'm tempted myself.
Fair enough, usually the best way when you've got a range of possibilities offering similar, but not quite the same, things. Especially when you've got commercial considerations & requirement for stability as well.
Evidently not, but I'm sure it will be ideal for many people's needs / wants, especially in today's room environments where 'small is king'. I can't pass comment re the base & top, but given the pictures on your site thus far, they look very nice as-is. Possibly a couple of aluminium outriggers with spikes for stability or similar?
Either way, the price mooted on your site (is that correct?) sounds like an outright bargain to me compared to similar things like the new JB3F, which cost more than three times that. To be honest, I'm tempted myself.
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TABAQ LARGE for TB 4 inch
Hi Bjorn,
I own a pair of TB W4-1337SIF and I'm keen to use them in TABAQs. I read that 4 inch speakers work well in the original TABAQ design. But also there is the TABAQ LARGE designed for the 5 inch TB drivers. What is your opinion about using TB 4" in TABAQ LARGE? How would it perform there?
Hi Bjorn,
I own a pair of TB W4-1337SIF and I'm keen to use them in TABAQs. I read that 4 inch speakers work well in the original TABAQ design. But also there is the TABAQ LARGE designed for the 5 inch TB drivers. What is your opinion about using TB 4" in TABAQ LARGE? How would it perform there?
Hi LZ0
It would probably not be the best solution, as the LARGE was designed for the specific 5 inch driver.
Actually, I have not simmed a TABAQ for 4" driver. I might do some sims, though.
I like the small footprint and size of the original TABAQ where the 4" is doing very well. You could reduce the stuffing if you like.
Hi from
Bjorn
It would probably not be the best solution, as the LARGE was designed for the specific 5 inch driver.
Actually, I have not simmed a TABAQ for 4" driver. I might do some sims, though.
I like the small footprint and size of the original TABAQ where the 4" is doing very well. You could reduce the stuffing if you like.
Hi from
Bjorn
Hi LZ0
I did - again - sims for the 4 inch TB and it is working fine in the original enclosure.
The tuning is 55 Hz and lower the tuning does not work. Increasing the volume alter the nice and controlled roll off of the bass.
Mount the driver 8 inch from the top, not 10 inch. This is for both 3 and 4 inch drivers.
The reason TABAQ works with both 3 and 4 inch drivers is pure luck and was actually not intended in the design !
The small driver has a high Fs as well as a high Qts. The 4 inch drivers has lower Qts and lower Fs. Therefore the tuning is suitable for both driver types.
For the 3 inch driver the volume is rather big - and the stuffing has a high density to ensure a low and controlled bass. I did this to get the wow effect you experience with the small driver. For the 4 inch driver the stuffing can be reduced to 70 gram.
Hi from
Bjørn
I did - again - sims for the 4 inch TB and it is working fine in the original enclosure.
The tuning is 55 Hz and lower the tuning does not work. Increasing the volume alter the nice and controlled roll off of the bass.
Mount the driver 8 inch from the top, not 10 inch. This is for both 3 and 4 inch drivers.
The reason TABAQ works with both 3 and 4 inch drivers is pure luck and was actually not intended in the design !
The small driver has a high Fs as well as a high Qts. The 4 inch drivers has lower Qts and lower Fs. Therefore the tuning is suitable for both driver types.
For the 3 inch driver the volume is rather big - and the stuffing has a high density to ensure a low and controlled bass. I did this to get the wow effect you experience with the small driver. For the 4 inch driver the stuffing can be reduced to 70 gram.
Hi from
Bjørn
I think my BSC circuit is a bit weak, I have got too much treble for my likings. In my TABAQ box with Vifa I use 8.2mH coil and 3.3Ohm resistor with the Vifa TG9FD 8Ohm speaker (not the 4ohm version!)
On my amplifier I had to turn the highs knob down with one unit then it was much better. (don't know exactly the unit but maybe that is only 1dB)
Should I invest in the 1mH coil and 6.8Ohm resistor?
On my amplifier I had to turn the highs knob down with one unit then it was much better. (don't know exactly the unit but maybe that is only 1dB)
Should I invest in the 1mH coil and 6.8Ohm resistor?
Yes, 0.82mh is the correct. I recalculated the bsc to my driver with a web calculator, that gave me the values. But I have set a little less attenuation.
Hey.
For more and stronger bass get a different driver in a bigger cabinet
The dayton needle for example.
Regards
For more and stronger bass get a different driver in a bigger cabinet
The dayton needle for example.
Regards
Well, at the moment the size of the cabinet is perfect for my forniture.
(I have to replace four bigger loudspeakers, I will have (much) less space)
So I am pretty sure I will stick to the Tabaq cabinet - size wise at least.
I already enjoy some tracks on it, some genre plays better than the others. I am testing with the position in mind where I can place them, and I feel a bit too much treble most of the times (even if it is only max 16kHz). I have wooden floor, no carpet between me and the speakers.
I am just wandering if stuffing can or can not alter this. Also placing the big 1,4mm2 wire coil to another position (inside the box)... could it change anything?
(I have to replace four bigger loudspeakers, I will have (much) less space)
So I am pretty sure I will stick to the Tabaq cabinet - size wise at least.
I already enjoy some tracks on it, some genre plays better than the others. I am testing with the position in mind where I can place them, and I feel a bit too much treble most of the times (even if it is only max 16kHz). I have wooden floor, no carpet between me and the speakers.
I am just wandering if stuffing can or can not alter this. Also placing the big 1,4mm2 wire coil to another position (inside the box)... could it change anything?
Yes, I use 100g stuffing, measured.
I don't have open wall surface, there is a bookshelf behind the speakers, about as high as the boxes.
Today I replaced the cables inside to 1,5mm2 OFC speaker cable, because when I built these I used some thinner random copper wire I had left. The speakers have got louder and more musical with this.
I haven't tested to short the BSC.
But I bought a little higher value resistor for the BSC, 4,7 vs 3,3 Ohm, there was no available value between them. The 4,7 attenuated the treble more but suddenly I felt it mid heavy compared to the other one (I only modified one side and played mono tracks to test).
So now I try it with the new cables in for a weekend to see if It still needs tweaking.
By the way it is incredible how these point sources are sensitive to placement.
I don't have open wall surface, there is a bookshelf behind the speakers, about as high as the boxes.
Today I replaced the cables inside to 1,5mm2 OFC speaker cable, because when I built these I used some thinner random copper wire I had left. The speakers have got louder and more musical with this.
I haven't tested to short the BSC.
But I bought a little higher value resistor for the BSC, 4,7 vs 3,3 Ohm, there was no available value between them. The 4,7 attenuated the treble more but suddenly I felt it mid heavy compared to the other one (I only modified one side and played mono tracks to test).
So now I try it with the new cables in for a weekend to see if It still needs tweaking.
By the way it is incredible how these point sources are sensitive to placement.
On my dual chamber reflex (DCR) with the TC9FD, it has similar bass extension as a Tabaq (~55 Hz) and I find that a 1.0 mH + 10 ohm resistor works very well for a BSC circuit. Optional is to add a 0.47 uF capacitor in parallel for extended highs. I tried 5 ohms and it was not enough. You might just try more resistance and less stuffing.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/252627-viva-la-vifa-curvy-cabinet-dcr-tc9fd-4.html#post3855113
Without the BSC it was not pleasant to listen to. With the BSC in place here is the measurement:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/252627-viva-la-vifa-curvy-cabinet-dcr-tc9fd-4.html#post3855113
Without the BSC it was not pleasant to listen to. With the BSC in place here is the measurement:
Thanks xrk971,
With a 10 ohm resistor the attenuation would be like -8dB which is too much for the tg9. I do not know anything about analog filters but what is the point in extending the hights with a capacitor if the main reason was to attenuate it.
Anyway, I gave another chance to the 4,7 ohm.
So now it is:
Vifa tg9fd 8 ohm (Re=6.3)
0,82mH
4,7 ohm
The result is not bad (my wife said it sounds really good, and that is something!) but now I feel like it would need a supertweeter.
The conclusion is, I need a resistor between 3,3 and 4,7.
There should be 3,9 ohm MOX but the local shop didn't stock it.
Increasing the inductor should increase the corner frequency but the mids are great, so I'll stick to it for now.
With a 10 ohm resistor the attenuation would be like -8dB which is too much for the tg9. I do not know anything about analog filters but what is the point in extending the hights with a capacitor if the main reason was to attenuate it.
Anyway, I gave another chance to the 4,7 ohm.
So now it is:
Vifa tg9fd 8 ohm (Re=6.3)
0,82mH
4,7 ohm
The result is not bad (my wife said it sounds really good, and that is something!) but now I feel like it would need a supertweeter.
The conclusion is, I need a resistor between 3,3 and 4,7.
There should be 3,9 ohm MOX but the local shop didn't stock it.
Increasing the inductor should increase the corner frequency but the mids are great, so I'll stick to it for now.
Earfanatic,
The BSC is really meant to cut the mids from the baffle step up to the vocal range of about 5 kHz where the "shout" of baffle step imbalance comes from. It also cuts high frequencies above that. Since there is some falloff on the TC9 naturally above 16kHz, you can restore that to bring some "air" back to the highs. A 0.47 uF cap is pretty high up in the 10kHz range so you will not get fatigue. It is optional though. 10 ohms is a big cut but mostly in the fatiguing 1kHz to 5 kHz range. Adding the cap is like adding a supertweeter - try it. You may even like a 1 uF value if you feel highs are not enough.
The BSC is really meant to cut the mids from the baffle step up to the vocal range of about 5 kHz where the "shout" of baffle step imbalance comes from. It also cuts high frequencies above that. Since there is some falloff on the TC9 naturally above 16kHz, you can restore that to bring some "air" back to the highs. A 0.47 uF cap is pretty high up in the 10kHz range so you will not get fatigue. It is optional though. 10 ohms is a big cut but mostly in the fatiguing 1kHz to 5 kHz range. Adding the cap is like adding a supertweeter - try it. You may even like a 1 uF value if you feel highs are not enough.
so, my next version of these is "nearly" done (yeah, right). The TG9s I used yesterday for testing showed I had way too much stuffing in, but they are more than capable of excellent imaging. One of those also has a minor hole in teh suspension, so I'm not going to assume too much from the bass performance.
I glued them tonight, they're the "bookshelf" variant, in 15mm multiplex, with added weight; both of the small voids in the design have been filled with iron filings (!!). They're far enough away from the driver that there should be no ill-effects. The biltema binding posts are countersunk in completely (30mm thick rear wall!) so the cables can be at the rear...They seem to weigh around 8-10kg each, I will have to check.
I also built a small box tonight, x 2, for the amp camp amp PCBs from the German DIY-audio-store; I've cut out a 160x40mmx40mm section for the heatsink I have and will be dropping those into place. These will sit underneath the bookshelves, with M10 feet, and be screwed into place on the bookshelves with M4 screws into T-nuts. I'll be rounding over the uprights on both boxes and will probably add a couple of LEDs to the top of the amp boxes. The boxes are 330mm or so deep and 157mm wide, with 65mm of working height inside for the ACA#1s and some more weight, this time as stones and sand mixed with epoxy resin.
Still not sure on the colour, at the moment I think I'm going to go for white and see how good the finish will get. The amp boxes are symmetrical, and yes, I'm going to round over teh top and bottom of the heatsink "gap" to try and make sure there's enough airflow.
pics will follow when they look even remotely good enough to show
BTW: very impressed with Bison's PU glue in a tube (like the silicon sealant ones, the ones that require you use a gun) - it's transparent and not runny at all, which is really pleasant to use. Comes off with acetone when wet, too.
- Bret
I glued them tonight, they're the "bookshelf" variant, in 15mm multiplex, with added weight; both of the small voids in the design have been filled with iron filings (!!). They're far enough away from the driver that there should be no ill-effects. The biltema binding posts are countersunk in completely (30mm thick rear wall!) so the cables can be at the rear...They seem to weigh around 8-10kg each, I will have to check.
I also built a small box tonight, x 2, for the amp camp amp PCBs from the German DIY-audio-store; I've cut out a 160x40mmx40mm section for the heatsink I have and will be dropping those into place. These will sit underneath the bookshelves, with M10 feet, and be screwed into place on the bookshelves with M4 screws into T-nuts. I'll be rounding over the uprights on both boxes and will probably add a couple of LEDs to the top of the amp boxes. The boxes are 330mm or so deep and 157mm wide, with 65mm of working height inside for the ACA#1s and some more weight, this time as stones and sand mixed with epoxy resin.
Still not sure on the colour, at the moment I think I'm going to go for white and see how good the finish will get. The amp boxes are symmetrical, and yes, I'm going to round over teh top and bottom of the heatsink "gap" to try and make sure there's enough airflow.
pics will follow when they look even remotely good enough to show
BTW: very impressed with Bison's PU glue in a tube (like the silicon sealant ones, the ones that require you use a gun) - it's transparent and not runny at all, which is really pleasant to use. Comes off with acetone when wet, too.
- Bret
Thanks xrk971,
I'll try the capacitor too. I read the mh-audio instructions, and used the calculators. According to that I think I am on the right way, just missing some clarity in the upper highs. But first I try to lower the resistor value a bit to see if it get's better with that. I want to keep it as simlpe as possible (not mentioning the additional costs to buy parts to try out.)
I'll try the capacitor too. I read the mh-audio instructions, and used the calculators. According to that I think I am on the right way, just missing some clarity in the upper highs. But first I try to lower the resistor value a bit to see if it get's better with that. I want to keep it as simlpe as possible (not mentioning the additional costs to buy parts to try out.)
After a few experiments, I really can say.... now this is strange!
1. test was with calculated bsc - I felt too much treble
2. test was with more attenuation - not better, too less treble
(I played music for 1-2 days between each stage)
3. test was with even more attenuation (suggested) - the tabaq was like a portable casette player to my ears
4. test was with removed BSC - I liked this the most, don't ask me how! It was more lifelike, incredible details. Later on it turned out it causes some listening fatigue, so I started testing again.
5. test was rearranging the stuffing a little bit also tried it without (horrible). Best result was the recommended 2/3 part stuffed.
6. test, back to the original as the test no.1, calculated BSC
Now, either it is placebo, or I get used to it, or it can be the driver needed some more burn in, but now I like it!
One more reason I can think about is I learned it depends highly on the listening position and tried it several times.
There are places in the room, where it is too bright, another place where it has boomy bass and places like heaven.
Not an easy hobby this is!
1. test was with calculated bsc - I felt too much treble
2. test was with more attenuation - not better, too less treble
(I played music for 1-2 days between each stage)
3. test was with even more attenuation (suggested) - the tabaq was like a portable casette player to my ears
4. test was with removed BSC - I liked this the most, don't ask me how! It was more lifelike, incredible details. Later on it turned out it causes some listening fatigue, so I started testing again.
5. test was rearranging the stuffing a little bit also tried it without (horrible). Best result was the recommended 2/3 part stuffed.
6. test, back to the original as the test no.1, calculated BSC
Now, either it is placebo, or I get used to it, or it can be the driver needed some more burn in, but now I like it!
One more reason I can think about is I learned it depends highly on the listening position and tried it several times.
There are places in the room, where it is too bright, another place where it has boomy bass and places like heaven.
Not an easy hobby this is!
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Cheers
I love the TG9!
Am glade you found a setup that you like
Sure, some things in the driver change with use (suspension etc) but hundres of houres burn in time only with very specific kinds of sound is not credibil imho.
The ear (brain) gets used to the flaws and compensates, thats why measurements are helpful
But fun and rewarding imo. The room and the placment of speakers + listening position play a major role in how the speakers sound. Great that you realized this early. By changing the placement a lot can be achived regarding that.
happy building!
I love the TG9!
Am glade you found a setup that you like
I have the feeling/impression very much about burn in is just getting used to irregularities of a driver / loudspeaker.After a few experiments, I really can say.... now this is strange!
...
Now, either it is placebo, or I get used to it, or it can be the driver needed some more burn in, but now I like it!
Sure, some things in the driver change with use (suspension etc) but hundres of houres burn in time only with very specific kinds of sound is not credibil imho.
The ear (brain) gets used to the flaws and compensates, thats why measurements are helpful
One more reason I can think about is I learned it depends highly on the listening position and tried it several times.
There are places in the room, where it is too bright, another place where it has boomy bass and places like heaven.
Not an easy hobby this is!
But fun and rewarding imo. The room and the placment of speakers + listening position play a major role in how the speakers sound. Great that you realized this early. By changing the placement a lot can be achived regarding that.
happy building!