Hi Lars;
>>>...the manufacturer...took the guts from a 'Datsun', and simply put it inside a 'Ferrari' box...<<<
Absolute agreement - that's what I was getting at with: "...end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good..."
In the US, the practice you're referring to is called "badging," particularly in it's most extreme form - wherein the entire unit is made by an OEM that just "badges" it with the customer's name.
Sorry for being so wordy.
Anyway, the thing that got me interested in this thread is that the best I can afford is my 2-1/2 year old Sony DVD.
My first tweak on the Sony was a modest one - packing the timing crystal with rope caulk. The result was a much cleaner midrange that cured problems I'd attributed to other components in my system! The second mod was to pack the brace that holds the clamp assembly with rope caulk, and here the results were quite useful - a nasty upper midrange resonance I'd attributed to room acoustics was disposed of.
The only other DVD tweaks are just power line filtering - the mains cord now sports 3 large ferrite chokes in addition to the internal one, and I'm using a variation of Jon Risch's isolation filter to clean up incoming power line grunge.
Electronic tweaks are upcoming, but I'd really like to see what sorts of surgery everyone else is trying before I fire up the Weller and make some solder fumes. With that in mind:
1. Anyone tried PS tweaks like snubbing the rectifiers?
2. DAC tweaks, like adding capacitance to the decoupling caps? Or perhaps better quality decoupling caps, like Nichicon Muse or BG's?
3. Anyone make the leap to battery power and sidestep AC grunge completely? If so, how's it working out for you?
4. Anything else? Maybe a better audio stage or opamp upgrade?
All the best,
Morse
>>>...the manufacturer...took the guts from a 'Datsun', and simply put it inside a 'Ferrari' box...<<<
Absolute agreement - that's what I was getting at with: "...end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good..."
In the US, the practice you're referring to is called "badging," particularly in it's most extreme form - wherein the entire unit is made by an OEM that just "badges" it with the customer's name.
Sorry for being so wordy.
Anyway, the thing that got me interested in this thread is that the best I can afford is my 2-1/2 year old Sony DVD.
My first tweak on the Sony was a modest one - packing the timing crystal with rope caulk. The result was a much cleaner midrange that cured problems I'd attributed to other components in my system! The second mod was to pack the brace that holds the clamp assembly with rope caulk, and here the results were quite useful - a nasty upper midrange resonance I'd attributed to room acoustics was disposed of.
The only other DVD tweaks are just power line filtering - the mains cord now sports 3 large ferrite chokes in addition to the internal one, and I'm using a variation of Jon Risch's isolation filter to clean up incoming power line grunge.
Electronic tweaks are upcoming, but I'd really like to see what sorts of surgery everyone else is trying before I fire up the Weller and make some solder fumes. With that in mind:
1. Anyone tried PS tweaks like snubbing the rectifiers?
2. DAC tweaks, like adding capacitance to the decoupling caps? Or perhaps better quality decoupling caps, like Nichicon Muse or BG's?
3. Anyone make the leap to battery power and sidestep AC grunge completely? If so, how's it working out for you?
4. Anything else? Maybe a better audio stage or opamp upgrade?
All the best,
Morse
Hi Lyra;
>>>...BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected...<<<
*YIKES*! First off, I'd guess that you should check the output caps - are there even any fitted?
That 230VAC gives me the willies, though - I don't know what to think of it....perhaps the maker really cheaped out on the grounding, and knowing there could be significant ACV on the signal out without a load deleted the caps. Or maybe they self destructed some time ago and the 230VAC is what killed 'em. Polarised caps are notoriously shy about having significant ACV applied.....
Good luck and all the best,
Morse
>>>...BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected...<<<
*YIKES*! First off, I'd guess that you should check the output caps - are there even any fitted?
That 230VAC gives me the willies, though - I don't know what to think of it....perhaps the maker really cheaped out on the grounding, and knowing there could be significant ACV on the signal out without a load deleted the caps. Or maybe they self destructed some time ago and the 230VAC is what killed 'em. Polarised caps are notoriously shy about having significant ACV applied.....
Good luck and all the best,
Morse
jean-paul said:
you are right if you define high-end as reliability only.
To me, high-end may have other meanings, like quality, performance (handling in particular for me), and prestige, to name a few. Toyota executives certainly didn't think the Toyota name was prestigious or high-end enough. Otherwise, they wouldn't have come out with Lexus. The same for Nissan (Infiniti), Honda (Acura), Mazda (the still-born Amati), VW (Audi), and other examples. But you are certain free in defining your own "high-end".
Morse said:You're a braver man than I, if you're willing to ever tell the proud owner of a pair of $20,000 Wilson Watt Puppies that they're low end!
I keep telling myself that I drive low-end cars (an A6 and a 3-series), for exactly the same reason.
Morse said:
it is not based on price, but on the context in which the discussion is framed. If we are all talking about Escorts or Focuses of the world, a 330 is certain a high-end car. But if we are talking about 911s or Corvettes, the BMW certain isn't.
Morse said:
I don't know if they do disappear rapidly. Some of them have been in the business a long time, OEMing for the brand names. We just didn't know or notice them. It is their strategy: they are good at manufacturing and not so good at branding and marketing. You will find similar things in pretty much any business, including automotives.
Has anybody ever read Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Matinence(sp)?The author goes insane trying to find
a definition of quality.
In any current mfg of just about anything , SPC (stastical quality control) is involved.The concept was developed by a guy named Demming who was rejected by american mfgs. but was embraced by the japanese.This led to the early 80s rise of the japanese in consumer products.
The major difference in quality (as far as i have observed) comes to the established performance parameters(tolerences) of either individual components or assys.
ron
a definition of quality.
In any current mfg of just about anything , SPC (stastical quality control) is involved.The concept was developed by a guy named Demming who was rejected by american mfgs. but was embraced by the japanese.This led to the early 80s rise of the japanese in consumer products.
The major difference in quality (as far as i have observed) comes to the established performance parameters(tolerences) of either individual components or assys.
ron
ron clarke said:
It doesn't surprise me. Quality can mean different things, tho. most people associate 'variances' with low quality (in either spc or 6-sigma sense).
to me, it can be much broader. The plasticy interior of some cars, for example, isn't 'quality'. other examples would include the large (but consistent) gaps on some SUVs, the distributors (or how they ar eengineered into those engines) on some Mustangs, rubber fuel lines on 300ZXTT and RX7TT, the I-drive in the 7-series BMW, or the ugly looking exterior of my A6.
Again, we are such a diverse group of people and our "definition" will be non-surprisingly diverse as well.
Hi Ron;
It's not surprising that the concepts you mention would be embraced in Japan, given the quality consciousness of the culture, and desire for perfection. Valves manufactured there in the '60's were well known for the extremely good vacuum maintained.
Hi millwood;
Hmmm, I see what you mean by diverse outlooks - I tend to look at the entire industry rather than any subsector of it. That way I don't have to decide who belongs in each subsector, and only have to look at their marketing strategy and product type to decide where they fit in the continuum from "transients" (I'll admit that "fly by night" was a poor choice of words due to emotional loading in the phrase) to "high end." It's important to distinguish between marketing names and manufacturer's too - if you see the badge "RCA", "Proscan", or "GE" , guess what - they're all made by the same company, Thompson Consumer Electric. The different brand names just represent the different price points that make up their niche in the mainstream market. And there's a certain amount of interaction, even among unrelated companies; IIRC Hitachi was supplying some of the parts for RCA's current projection sets.
BTW, here at least I have seen companies that appear, dump junk on the market, then truly do disappear (presumably before too many warranty complaints come in). For example, Lyra's DVD player is certainly not representative of a well functioning product, but it would take some investigation to determine if the maker is still in business under that corporate identity or if they've "disbanded" and arisen anew under another name.
This is decidedly not the same thing as having some OEM hard drive maker decide to go direct marketing for a while, or a company that typically caters to the Asian market decide to try it's hand in the west (heck, the best TV I ever owned was a Sampo from Taiwan - it worked flawlessly for 25 years - but how many western consumers have ever heard of "Sampo"!).
Good luck with your A6 and 3-series. I'm just happy to have a motorcar that starts most mornings! At least until I can move to where I won't need one of the things......
All the best,
Morse
It's not surprising that the concepts you mention would be embraced in Japan, given the quality consciousness of the culture, and desire for perfection. Valves manufactured there in the '60's were well known for the extremely good vacuum maintained.
Hi millwood;
Hmmm, I see what you mean by diverse outlooks - I tend to look at the entire industry rather than any subsector of it. That way I don't have to decide who belongs in each subsector, and only have to look at their marketing strategy and product type to decide where they fit in the continuum from "transients" (I'll admit that "fly by night" was a poor choice of words due to emotional loading in the phrase) to "high end." It's important to distinguish between marketing names and manufacturer's too - if you see the badge "RCA", "Proscan", or "GE" , guess what - they're all made by the same company, Thompson Consumer Electric. The different brand names just represent the different price points that make up their niche in the mainstream market. And there's a certain amount of interaction, even among unrelated companies; IIRC Hitachi was supplying some of the parts for RCA's current projection sets.
BTW, here at least I have seen companies that appear, dump junk on the market, then truly do disappear (presumably before too many warranty complaints come in). For example, Lyra's DVD player is certainly not representative of a well functioning product, but it would take some investigation to determine if the maker is still in business under that corporate identity or if they've "disbanded" and arisen anew under another name.
This is decidedly not the same thing as having some OEM hard drive maker decide to go direct marketing for a while, or a company that typically caters to the Asian market decide to try it's hand in the west (heck, the best TV I ever owned was a Sampo from Taiwan - it worked flawlessly for 25 years - but how many western consumers have ever heard of "Sampo"!).
Good luck with your A6 and 3-series. I'm just happy to have a motorcar that starts most mornings!
At least until I can move to where I won't need one of the things......All the best,
Morse
Pioneer DV-563A
Does anyone know anything about this one?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_15020669_2046370,00.html
I guess at US$180 it doesn't qualify as super cheap, but it's close, and it does both DVD-A and SACD.
Does anyone know anything about this one?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_15020669_2046370,00.html
I guess at US$180 it doesn't qualify as super cheap, but it's close, and it does both DVD-A and SACD.
Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
That's what you guys are doing buying there crappy-cheapy chinese DVD players.
Lars, DVD players DO PAY ROYALTIES.
But not these chinese cheap ones.
Unfortunately, companies like Dolby, DTS, etc. are robbed every day with these "dont't-know-where-they-make-it" brands.
I've seen new DVD players for sell at 49 Euros.
They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing.
Anyway, we're talking CRAP here.
Musteks were sold and returned to a store I know every day.
They stopped selling it.
And, guys...
With more and more copy-protected CDs these days, you'll have plenty of trouble in using one of these DVD players for reading your music CDs.
That's what you guys are doing buying there crappy-cheapy chinese DVD players.
Lars, DVD players DO PAY ROYALTIES.
But not these chinese cheap ones.
Unfortunately, companies like Dolby, DTS, etc. are robbed every day with these "dont't-know-where-they-make-it" brands.
I've seen new DVD players for sell at 49 Euros.
They are made on those chinese or far east factories where people get 1$ for a day work and have no rights, no social security, no nothing.
Anyway, we're talking CRAP here.
Musteks were sold and returned to a store I know every day.
They stopped selling it.
And, guys...
With more and more copy-protected CDs these days, you'll have plenty of trouble in using one of these DVD players for reading your music CDs.
Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
You sure about that?
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/May/32362.htm
But that's true for most DVD players, not just the super cheap ones, and all DVD players will at least have some parts made in China.
carlosfm said:
You sure about that?
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/May/32362.htm
But that's true for most DVD players, not just the super cheap ones, and all DVD players will at least have some parts made in China.
carlosfm: thanks for putting that new spin on our discussion ..
1-2 $ a day is not so unusual for a salary in China, at least it wasn't the last time i was there (1999).
But do you want to stop people from buying chinese products alltogether? I mean stereo's, firecrackers, ceramics, glassware, and any other type of product?
Surely there will be cases like you mention where the quality of a product is crap, but you can also find examples of the opposite.
Can you enlighten me with the informations you have about DVD royalties? Who owns the rights to the DVD system?
(Except the independent used technologies like Dolby, DTS etc.).
1-2 $ a day is not so unusual for a salary in China, at least it wasn't the last time i was there (1999).
But do you want to stop people from buying chinese products alltogether? I mean stereo's, firecrackers, ceramics, glassware, and any other type of product?
Surely there will be cases like you mention where the quality of a product is crap, but you can also find examples of the opposite.
Can you enlighten me with the informations you have about DVD royalties? Who owns the rights to the DVD system?
(Except the independent used technologies like Dolby, DTS etc.).
Slavery
Eating meat keeps people elsewhere hungry everyday.
80% of all maize and grain goes towards feeding cattle and other animals we eat... (US Department of agriculture stats) of which only 10% of nutrients is absorbed by the animal the rest is crapped out..so if we stopped eating meat..all the people in the world could be fed.
I still eat meat..does that make me a mass murderer?
Guess it does..
Everything we do everyday perpetuates misery...because we honestly don't really care about what happens in the rest of the world...
So let's get back to DVD players...
Cheers,
Bas
Eating meat keeps people elsewhere hungry everyday.
80% of all maize and grain goes towards feeding cattle and other animals we eat... (US Department of agriculture stats) of which only 10% of nutrients is absorbed by the animal the rest is crapped out..so if we stopped eating meat..all the people in the world could be fed.
I still eat meat..does that make me a mass murderer?
Guess it does..
Everything we do everyday perpetuates misery...because we honestly don't really care about what happens in the rest of the world...
So let's get back to DVD players...
Cheers,
Bas
Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
We live in a world economy, like it or not. That's a dollar they wouldn't get if no one bought it. For those workers it's the first rung of a long steep ladder they have to climb. People are exploited in the UK, and I'm sure in Portugal too. The exploitation is a local problem, that can only be sorted out locally.carlosfm said:
Lars, the CD patent expired last year, so no more royalties for Philips and Sony.
That's why they made the SACD format.
The several patented techologies inside a DVD player do pay royalties.
And the DVD players have to show some logos on the front panel, that's not to be more pretty.
Anyway, I heard some time ago that some "obscure" OEM far-eastern companies don't pay royalties.
I know that there's exploitation, hungry, mysery everywhere.
But I simply don't like it, sorry.
And I don't like crap things, so weak that a push of a button may crack it.
I don't have anything against chinese products, after all they also have very good ones, even high-end.
But the difference in quality in ALL the aspects between a cheapy-crappy chinese DVD and the cheapest DVD from some major brands can be huge.
Of ourse you have to pay a little more money.
But it pays.
I know a guy that bought a Mustek DVD and it broke 3 times in the warranty period.
The store always gave him a new one (they new it was pure crap).
At the third time the warranty was finishing and the guy went to the store to receive his money back.
They gave the money to him.
Some weeks later they didn't sell Mustek anymore.
It seams that he wasn't the only one with problems.
Guys, do you have the time and the patience for this?
I don't.
Better spend a little more money and sleep in peace.
That's why they made the SACD format.
The several patented techologies inside a DVD player do pay royalties.
And the DVD players have to show some logos on the front panel, that's not to be more pretty.
Anyway, I heard some time ago that some "obscure" OEM far-eastern companies don't pay royalties.
I know that there's exploitation, hungry, mysery everywhere.
But I simply don't like it, sorry.
And I don't like crap things, so weak that a push of a button may crack it.
I don't have anything against chinese products, after all they also have very good ones, even high-end.
But the difference in quality in ALL the aspects between a cheapy-crappy chinese DVD and the cheapest DVD from some major brands can be huge.
Of ourse you have to pay a little more money.
But it pays.
I know a guy that bought a Mustek DVD and it broke 3 times in the warranty period.
The store always gave him a new one (they new it was pure crap).
At the third time the warranty was finishing and the guy went to the store to receive his money back.
They gave the money to him.
Some weeks later they didn't sell Mustek anymore.
It seams that he wasn't the only one with problems.
Guys, do you have the time and the patience for this?
I don't.
Better spend a little more money and sleep in peace.
There is not a general consumer TV set,DVD, CD player ,tennis shoe ect ect made in america today.
When we went away from the mfg. end of the economy and went to the info economy there left a gap in consumer producs.The chinese just filled that gap.We allowed it to happen not them.
I remember when you walked into a walmart and saw AMERICAN MADE banners hung all over, have you seen any lately?.
I am sitting here listening to a GE dvd player(made in mexico)thru a gainclone LM3875T (made where?) and fostex horns (which i made but the drivers came from japan).
So i am to blame along with the rest of the crowd, but exactly what were my options?
ron
When we went away from the mfg. end of the economy and went to the info economy there left a gap in consumer producs.The chinese just filled that gap.We allowed it to happen not them.
I remember when you walked into a walmart and saw AMERICAN MADE banners hung all over, have you seen any lately?.
I am sitting here listening to a GE dvd player(made in mexico)thru a gainclone LM3875T (made where?) and fostex horns (which i made but the drivers came from japan).
So i am to blame along with the rest of the crowd, but exactly what were my options?
ron
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