It depends on where you buy the dvd player, different countries have different laws about zoning..
"Multi zone" is what you look for it you want a completely zone restriction free player, not dezoned or anything like that
Also, panasonic and technics dvd players (mostly) have identical circuit boards/hardware inside them if that is any help to anyone making a decision, id say those particular ones are pretty good too
"Multi zone" is what you look for it you want a completely zone restriction free player, not dezoned or anything like that
Also, panasonic and technics dvd players (mostly) have identical circuit boards/hardware inside them if that is any help to anyone making a decision, id say those particular ones are pretty good too
Lars Clausen said:
If anything, you'll find that DVD players are loaded with even higher royalties as they not only have to contribute to the CD patentees, but also pay for an MPEG 2 licence (for the DVD part).
This is why the Chinese are developing their own video disk standard - it will save them USD5 per player.
The same situation applies with 3G telephone systems, they are developing their own standard in order to avoid paying Qualcom.
Arnie
Hi Ron;
>>>...Very logical Nuuk. I wonder what the differences are between a lower priced DVD player and a higher one really are?...<<<
Something to bear in mind is that the lowest cost electronics from "no-name" companies are often built of parts that were rejected en-masse from the "big names." Thus, if you open up a "fly-by-night" brand player, you may well find a Sony optical pick up unit, Philips transport, or Matsushita DAC board, all assembled in a mish-mash that may perform rather well. However, many of the parts used will be ones from lots with a highish rejet rate - thus the reliability may be a bit suspect.
Above the 'reject grade', most mass-fi products are built on common chassis, with the low end units lacking some of the 'tweaks' and features that make for a high end unit.
Then at the top of each manufacturer's line there will be a "flagship" in each major product category that is not related to the "lesser" products in any way (except the name), but which ARE usually the products reviewed by the mainstream consumer electronics press.
In general, this is much like the way that the US auto industry used to work - there'd be a handful of "race grade" cars that would be shown on the track so that consumers would feel better about buying a "regular" grade of auto from the same manufacturer.
One way of looking at the current DIY/tweaking phenomenon is that we are the modern "hotrodders" who either roll our own "electronic street rods" or take an "ordinary grade" product and work our magic to compete with the race built specials.
Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep; just wanted to put a little perspective on the industry, given the subject.
All the best,
Morse
>>>...Very logical Nuuk. I wonder what the differences are between a lower priced DVD player and a higher one really are?...<<<
Something to bear in mind is that the lowest cost electronics from "no-name" companies are often built of parts that were rejected en-masse from the "big names." Thus, if you open up a "fly-by-night" brand player, you may well find a Sony optical pick up unit, Philips transport, or Matsushita DAC board, all assembled in a mish-mash that may perform rather well. However, many of the parts used will be ones from lots with a highish rejet rate - thus the reliability may be a bit suspect.
Above the 'reject grade', most mass-fi products are built on common chassis, with the low end units lacking some of the 'tweaks' and features that make for a high end unit.
Then at the top of each manufacturer's line there will be a "flagship" in each major product category that is not related to the "lesser" products in any way (except the name), but which ARE usually the products reviewed by the mainstream consumer electronics press.
In general, this is much like the way that the US auto industry used to work - there'd be a handful of "race grade" cars that would be shown on the track so that consumers would feel better about buying a "regular" grade of auto from the same manufacturer.
One way of looking at the current DIY/tweaking phenomenon is that we are the modern "hotrodders" who either roll our own "electronic street rods" or take an "ordinary grade" product and work our magic to compete with the race built specials.
Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep; just wanted to put a little perspective on the industry, given the subject.
All the best,
Morse
Actually i think the cheap DVD players have been ahead of the brand names all along.
Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players.
Brand playes often use low end chip sets inside, while the cheap DVD's produce in such a massive quantity that they get the price of the good chipsets down.
The transports i have seen in real low end DVD players so far have not been dropaouts from brand names like you claim, but actually appeared to have a better mechanical construction with metal supports, dual bearing motos etc. compared to 4 times more expensive brand name players made entirely out of plastic.
I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one
Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players.
Brand playes often use low end chip sets inside, while the cheap DVD's produce in such a massive quantity that they get the price of the good chipsets down.
The transports i have seen in real low end DVD players so far have not been dropaouts from brand names like you claim, but actually appeared to have a better mechanical construction with metal supports, dual bearing motos etc. compared to 4 times more expensive brand name players made entirely out of plastic.
I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one
Hi Lars;
>>>...I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one...<<<
No problem Lars. God knows I make plenty of mistakes! It may be different where you are, but to the best of my knowledge I did describe the mainstream A/V makers and their operations in the US market accurately. Any mistakes made were in good faith.
>>>...Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players...<<<
One thing that may be skewing the picture here (pardon the pun) is the release scheduling of new equipment. In Japan the equipment is at least a couple of years ahead of the US - in some case more than that (I saw cellphones with built in cameras in Japan a good 3 years before they were first introduced in the US, for example). It's similar with home A/V equipment.
Could it be that the "fly by nighters" are using current reject parts without regard to the release schedules of the big names? Thus, a feature that appears "ahead" of the brand name makers could be something they've had for 2 or more years - but not in your country.
Incidentally, later this month I'm scheduled to return to Japan and am looking forward to seeing all the latest in new electronics. It doesn't sound like I'll be able to make it to Akihabara though....
All the best,
Morse
>>>...I am sorry i have to disagree with you on this one...<<<
No problem Lars. God knows I make plenty of mistakes!
It may be different where you are, but to the best of my knowledge I did describe the mainstream A/V makers and their operations in the US market accurately. Any mistakes made were in good faith.>>>...Low enders were the first to have digital zoom, then a year later you would find that function in brand players...<<<
One thing that may be skewing the picture here (pardon the pun) is the release scheduling of new equipment. In Japan the equipment is at least a couple of years ahead of the US - in some case more than that (I saw cellphones with built in cameras in Japan a good 3 years before they were first introduced in the US, for example). It's similar with home A/V equipment.
Could it be that the "fly by nighters" are using current reject parts without regard to the release schedules of the big names? Thus, a feature that appears "ahead" of the brand name makers could be something they've had for 2 or more years - but not in your country.
Incidentally, later this month I'm scheduled to return to Japan and am looking forward to seeing all the latest in new electronics. It doesn't sound like I'll be able to make it to Akihabara though....
All the best,
Morse
Hi!
Opened up my 1.5 year old ultra cheap United dvd player today.
Haven`t bothered before this treat, didn`t think there were hope for it.
I only use it for film anyway. I don`t bother much about picture or sound quality when I wach movies, and it sound lousy compared with my modified Pioneer PDS 707.
But I miss a good sounding dvd player to wach music dvds.
Inside I found a cs4340-ks dac, and one c4558 opamp that might be for the analog output. Haven`t studied the pcb traces yet.
Anyone know anything about the quality of this cirrus dac?
Found some information on some common ultracheap dvd players on this site:
http://www.leien.info/euroline/
Mine is almost identical to the United 3551 on that site.
My pcb is a little bit different from the picture. I have a differend video dac (cs4955) and a different flash memory.
Opened up my 1.5 year old ultra cheap United dvd player today.
Haven`t bothered before this treat, didn`t think there were hope for it.
I only use it for film anyway. I don`t bother much about picture or sound quality when I wach movies, and it sound lousy compared with my modified Pioneer PDS 707.
But I miss a good sounding dvd player to wach music dvds.
Inside I found a cs4340-ks dac, and one c4558 opamp that might be for the analog output. Haven`t studied the pcb traces yet.
Anyone know anything about the quality of this cirrus dac?
Found some information on some common ultracheap dvd players on this site:
http://www.leien.info/euroline/
Mine is almost identical to the United 3551 on that site.
My pcb is a little bit different from the picture. I have a differend video dac (cs4955) and a different flash memory.
Attachments
Tor M said:
can someone find those "reject" parts for me?
Morse, if you follow the electronics industry, you will know that the same manufacturers of low-end dvd players will also OEM for big name high-enders (like for example Sony or Panasonic). and some of the IC companies in the state benefit from their large volume. I have never heard of the "reject" parts: it could simply be the case that it is too expensive to buy rejects than normal grade parts as at today's yield, rejects are far and in between. so the cost of collecting those rejects and packaging them for resale far outweighs the cost of simply throwing them out.
I bought a Pioneer 434 about 5 years ago, because of reading the reviews on the quality. That has been the most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned. 4 interstate moves, never been cleaned, and it still is rock solid. Best $400 I ever spent. (Bought it at Harvey's, in NYC)
But, who doesnt want to improve something? Has anyone worked with these before? Any options to upgrade them?
But, who doesnt want to improve something? Has anyone worked with these before? Any options to upgrade them?
I think the concept of reject parts being used for cheap things is an Urban Legend if there ever was one. It would, as millwood points out, probably be MUCH more expensive to build from rejects rather than stock parts. I would guess that when a factory builds 500.000 DVD players they will buy those components in bulk rather than search for different rejects and change the PCBs and cicuits all the time.
Hi millwood;
Sorry, didn't mean to stir a controversy! Perhaps I should have used the phrase "lower graded parts" instead of rejects.
My understanding has been that tests are not of individual parts, but rather of samples from production lots at the point of manufacture, prior to shipment.
The way it was described to me, let's say you're making laser OPU's and you find that a production lot of quite a few thousands of the things just tested a little low in the useable output (i.e intensity for voltage applied - this will affect lifespan, since as the lasers age they require more voltage to produce a given intensity and this is automatically taken care of internally - but there's only so much voltage they can take before they fail - if there's not enough adjustability left then they will not give the full number of hours of required lifespan). You don't have to separately package 'em up - they're already made and bulk packed. Those are the sorts of parts I was thinking of when typing. There are also parts over-runs of first grade parts to consider. If I'm mistaken, then by all means, my apologies.
As far as Panasonic and Sony being "high end", that's honestly the first time I've ever heard either name called that! Good mainstream electronics brands to be sure, but high end? You're making me feel better about my own audio kit, since I've never been able to afford the likes of Meridian, Conrad Johnson, and Wilson.....
All the best,
Morse
Sorry, didn't mean to stir a controversy! Perhaps I should have used the phrase "lower graded parts" instead of rejects.
My understanding has been that tests are not of individual parts, but rather of samples from production lots at the point of manufacture, prior to shipment.
The way it was described to me, let's say you're making laser OPU's and you find that a production lot of quite a few thousands of the things just tested a little low in the useable output (i.e intensity for voltage applied - this will affect lifespan, since as the lasers age they require more voltage to produce a given intensity and this is automatically taken care of internally - but there's only so much voltage they can take before they fail - if there's not enough adjustability left then they will not give the full number of hours of required lifespan). You don't have to separately package 'em up - they're already made and bulk packed. Those are the sorts of parts I was thinking of when typing. There are also parts over-runs of first grade parts to consider. If I'm mistaken, then by all means, my apologies.
As far as Panasonic and Sony being "high end", that's honestly the first time I've ever heard either name called that! Good mainstream electronics brands to be sure, but high end? You're making me feel better about my own audio kit, since I've never been able to afford the likes of Meridian, Conrad Johnson, and Wilson.....
All the best,
Morse
Mustek 560
I've got one of this crappy players....and it stinks!!!.... audiorelated anyway. Have not tried to mod. it but i really dont think it is hope for any reasonnally audio-ouput from this player. To be honest, I think it's the least HiFi i have ever tried.
The sound is thin, hard, harsh and with a totally lack of reasonable bass.
BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected.....
There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, but it works as a movie-player with only SCART mounted. :-/
P
I've got one of this crappy players....and it stinks!!!.... audiorelated anyway. Have not tried to mod. it but i really dont think it is hope for any reasonnally audio-ouput from this player. To be honest, I think it's the least HiFi i have ever tried.
The sound is thin, hard, harsh and with a totally lack of reasonable bass.
BUT!.... I have noticed that this player have about 30VDC !! on the output terminals ....and 230VAC......when not connected..... There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, but it works as a movie-player with only SCART mounted. :-/
P
Please continue to share your experiences and modifications with us, Lars...
I don't have a cd-player anymore, and I use my Panasonic DVD RV60 for audio. I don't use the build-in processor and DA converter, my preamp takes care of this (coxial out), so I wouldn't need to do something with the Analogue part...
Anyone tweaked this player?
How do I proceed? Where should I put my effort if I use digital out only?
PS: I also have a Philips DVD 756 (reads cd-r and is multi regional which the Pana cannot handle). Is this machine a better choise for upgrade?
Many questions, I'm sorry...
regards Jan
I don't have a cd-player anymore, and I use my Panasonic DVD RV60 for audio. I don't use the build-in processor and DA converter, my preamp takes care of this (coxial out), so I wouldn't need to do something with the Analogue part...
Anyone tweaked this player?
How do I proceed? Where should I put my effort if I use digital out only?
PS: I also have a Philips DVD 756 (reads cd-r and is multi regional which the Pana cannot handle). Is this machine a better choise for upgrade?
Many questions, I'm sorry...
regards Jan
Re: Mustek 560
Never said it was HiFi I think your example should have the qualification "defect".
Can't follow you on this one:
Shouldn't this be the opposite ?
Lyra said:I've got one of this crappy players....and it stinks!!!.... audiorelated anyway. Have not tried to mod. it but i really dont think it is hope for any reasonnally audio-ouput from this player. To be honest, I think it's the least HiFi i have ever tried.
The sound is thin, hard, harsh and with a totally lack of reasonable bass.
There are definite something wrong with this unit, and the warranty is gone, so I havent bothered trying to fix it, but it works as a movie-player with only SCART mounted. :-/
P
Never said it was HiFi
I think your example should have the qualification "defect".Can't follow you on this one:
Shouldn't this be the opposite ?
Hi Millwood;
>>>...the Meridians and Conrad Johnsons and Wilsons of the world can also be low-end vis-a-vis certain other brands...<<<
You're a braver man than I, if you're willing to ever tell the proud owner of a pair of $20,000 Wilson Watt Puppies that they're low end!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the definitions of terms, since you're using a sliding scale based on price, whereas my definitions are based more on the corporate structure and marketing strategy that seeks the business of the "high end" or "mainstream" consumer. FWIW, here is a short summary of how I use the terms.
"High end" signifies a product that aims at a market segment that seeks a "better" product than the mainstream consumer is willing to pay for - i.e. thick, brushed aluminium faceplates, massive chassis and heat sinks, etc. Often they're the product of smaller companies that may end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good. This unspoken assumption that price equals quality is the source of more than one bit of audio snake oil.....
"Mainstream" A/V in these terms would be someone like Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Harmon Kardon, etc. In many ways the thing that distinguishes the mainstream guys from the high end is the sheer size of their company - Matsushita, maker of Panasonic is one of the biggest OEM electronics makers in the world. The size of the company and the value of the name for marketing purposes make it risky to dump junk on the market, but at the same time, price competition is a big part of their business model, so they always have to balance cost versus performance. In many ways, I see the mainstream guys as trying to offer the biggest perceived bang for the buck, while still offering a product that's reliable enough not to come back to haunt them (anyone else remember the flap over the Panasonic A110, with respect to early failures back in mid '98 and '99?).
The "no-name" companies are those that pop up and disappear rapidly - here it's pretty common to see products appear from companies that one has never heard of - and in 2 or 3 years, you'll never find them again. Their products may be excellent or they may be junk - but since there's no "name recognition" attached to them, if they make a product with poor durability then there's no downside to their business model. With them, price competition is everything.
Just thought I'd clarify my use of the terms since there seemed to be some confusion....sorry for the ramble!
All the best,
Morse
>>>...the Meridians and Conrad Johnsons and Wilsons of the world can also be low-end vis-a-vis certain other brands...<<<
You're a braver man than I, if you're willing to ever tell the proud owner of a pair of $20,000 Wilson Watt Puppies that they're low end!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the definitions of terms, since you're using a sliding scale based on price, whereas my definitions are based more on the corporate structure and marketing strategy that seeks the business of the "high end" or "mainstream" consumer. FWIW, here is a short summary of how I use the terms.
"High end" signifies a product that aims at a market segment that seeks a "better" product than the mainstream consumer is willing to pay for - i.e. thick, brushed aluminium faceplates, massive chassis and heat sinks, etc. Often they're the product of smaller companies that may end up sourcing quite a few parts from the mainstream guys - particularly things like DVD drives. Price competition sometimes operates in reverse with the high end consumer, with the belief being that if it's not expensive, it's no good. This unspoken assumption that price equals quality is the source of more than one bit of audio snake oil.....
"Mainstream" A/V in these terms would be someone like Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Harmon Kardon, etc. In many ways the thing that distinguishes the mainstream guys from the high end is the sheer size of their company - Matsushita, maker of Panasonic is one of the biggest OEM electronics makers in the world. The size of the company and the value of the name for marketing purposes make it risky to dump junk on the market, but at the same time, price competition is a big part of their business model, so they always have to balance cost versus performance. In many ways, I see the mainstream guys as trying to offer the biggest perceived bang for the buck, while still offering a product that's reliable enough not to come back to haunt them (anyone else remember the flap over the Panasonic A110, with respect to early failures back in mid '98 and '99?).
The "no-name" companies are those that pop up and disappear rapidly - here it's pretty common to see products appear from companies that one has never heard of - and in 2 or 3 years, you'll never find them again. Their products may be excellent or they may be junk - but since there's no "name recognition" attached to them, if they make a product with poor durability then there's no downside to their business model. With them, price competition is everything.
Just thought I'd clarify my use of the terms since there seemed to be some confusion....sorry for the ramble!
All the best,
Morse
When you look inside Audio equipment, you will often find that the manufacturer (to reuse the automobile analogy) took the guts from a 'Datsun', and simply put it inside a 'Ferrari' box.
Because they count on customers to not recognize sound quality, but only the brand name.
So i think saying:
Brand is quality
is very blurred in the audio field.
I have often seen 2-3000 $ CD players from small brands contain exactly the same inners as 3-400$ models from bigger brands.
Because they count on customers to not recognize sound quality, but only the brand name.
So i think saying:
Brand is quality
is very blurred in the audio field.
I have often seen 2-3000 $ CD players from small brands contain exactly the same inners as 3-400$ models from bigger brands.
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