I doubt that Earl missed the introductory course on speaker design
tinitus, as a moderator should prevent off-topic discussions (or enforce appropriate measures like splitting a thread) instead you start them.
I guess it's baffle step transition because the magnitude and frequencies involved make sense with the theoretical (or crudely estimated, if you like) behavior of my baffle/enclosure? Point taken, though.
Says who BSC has nothing to do with the topic (and is so off-topic)?? Ask the original poster! Title is: Are subwoofers really necessary for home audio? Man, it is AUDIO not video. And it is HOME not studio or hall.
I have mentioned that I often think that people find subwoofer too useful because their main speaker is not proper to begin with. The bass response is not good so they cannot enjoy good bass which should be within the capability of many small woofers.
BSC is just a little example why their speaker missing the good bass. Tinitus had also mentioned phase, which is another little example of possible issue.
Man, right now I'm listening to my chip amp with 2-way bookshelf speaker. Second order crossover. The enclosure width is only 10 cm. Yes, it is very small. My project for the smallest but best sounding PC system. And I can enjoy the bass from such a small speaker. So imagine what a 6" or 12" can give... If you do it well
I have mentioned that I often think that people find subwoofer too useful because their main speaker is not proper to begin with. The bass response is not good so they cannot enjoy good bass which should be within the capability of many small woofers.
BSC is just a little example why their speaker missing the good bass. Tinitus had also mentioned phase, which is another little example of possible issue.
Man, right now I'm listening to my chip amp with 2-way bookshelf speaker. Second order crossover. The enclosure width is only 10 cm. Yes, it is very small. My project for the smallest but best sounding PC system. And I can enjoy the bass from such a small speaker. So imagine what a 6" or 12" can give... If you do it well
mur,
Previously the newer DD15 Velodynes were mentioned as good. Was not BagEnd respected? Don;t know as I like my own.
Jay,
Consider that not everyone has a dedicated listening room. As we LIVE in outliving rooms, an option for a true full range speaker system in not always in the cards. Of the three rooms where I have subs, in none of them could I use a full size floor-stander. As Poole says, we prefer deeper bass. Not louder, but all of it. Down to 25. So, all of my mains are small monitor 6 1/2 inch or smaller two ways. The are crossed over between 65 and 75 Hz depending on the room. As may good subs are only 60 liter, if the room aesthetics would have allowed, they could easily been traditional monkey coffins. Unfortunately, that would fail the WAF.
BTW, I know what a 6 inch can do if done well. About 60Hz before the distortion is too much to bare for full orchestra. That is why I have two 12's. I don't play very loud, so I can get away with the smaller subs. I may add two more to help smooth the room out because I know where to hide them. ( my subs do not look like speakers)
Previously the newer DD15 Velodynes were mentioned as good. Was not BagEnd respected? Don;t know as I like my own.
Jay,
Consider that not everyone has a dedicated listening room. As we LIVE in outliving rooms, an option for a true full range speaker system in not always in the cards. Of the three rooms where I have subs, in none of them could I use a full size floor-stander. As Poole says, we prefer deeper bass. Not louder, but all of it. Down to 25. So, all of my mains are small monitor 6 1/2 inch or smaller two ways. The are crossed over between 65 and 75 Hz depending on the room. As may good subs are only 60 liter, if the room aesthetics would have allowed, they could easily been traditional monkey coffins. Unfortunately, that would fail the WAF.
BTW, I know what a 6 inch can do if done well. About 60Hz before the distortion is too much to bare for full orchestra. That is why I have two 12's. I don't play very loud, so I can get away with the smaller subs. I may add two more to help smooth the room out because I know where to hide them. ( my subs do not look like speakers)
Question: Keeping on the need for home subs, for frequencies below the baffle step first pole, do we have any worries about edge diffraction or other geometric anomalies? I have assumed not when using sufficiently steep LP filters. But I converted my subs to down firing and find they have been harder to get integrated even though they sit within inches of when they were front firing. Bumpier and weaker. Simulation would put my pole at 140 and the diffraction hump way up at almost 600.
I've seen a presentation on geddes' multi subs, if you can talk him ou of 3 of them and work with him on measurements, you'll end up with a great system, or so I've read.
The issue I raised was the possibility of main speaker being badly designed such that the bass quality is far from enjoyable. We all have heard people saying that "the speaker is so small but the low notes CAN BE PERCEIVED clearly/well". It is this quality which is often missing from a speaker.
About the usefulness of a sub, of course, nobody here will seriously say that it is not useful. Here it is subjective because it is about taste (that's why I have preferred not to touch the issue).
But remember, integrating subwoofer is not easy. It is almost always there is compromise. If the sub is an extra addition without compromise, then congratulation. But from all cases I have met, there are compromises.
Due to phase difference, character (speed etc) difference, the sub may ruin the main speaker frequency performance.
The need of analogue crossover is the biggest issue imo. But good if you have digital crossover.
You don't need a poorly designed main speaker to have miserable low frequency response in a small room. Considering most people aren't listening in concert halls, you can pretty much guarantee that a pair of speakers arranged in the room for good imaging aren't going to offer good performance below 70 cycles or so.
TL;DR even great speakers have crap bass in 95% of listening rooms.
Which is precisely the reason why you should extend the BSC (or, as Dr. geddes puts it, NIFFC - "natural in-situ free field compensation") concept from the loudspeakers to the room when designing and also the reason why BSC/NIFFC is not at all off topic in this thread.
Mmm...I can see where the two issues can be intertwined, but BSC is something we normally look at using math and the dimensions of a speaker, meaning you can calculate it and then sell the speaker to someone else and it'll still do what it was supposed to in their room.
When we talk about miserable bass in a normal listening room because of modes, you really can't bust out a calculator and design a circuit that could be inserted into a subwoofer that makes it negate room modes or overcome placement issues.
or exactly not... but what else to do if you sell speakers
I build my own speakers, in my own room
but I really have no idea what others should do
adjustable subs ? ...yes, maybe
but obviously for different reasons
Im only certain about one thing .... the possible reasons and the big why could make a difference
The idea I was trying to convey was BSC is intended to overcome an issue with an enclosure...subwoofers are intended to overcome a limitation inherit in small speakers and their placement. You can correct an enclosure for an issue such as bass rolloff, if the speaker is intended to play evenly down past the frequency where the cabinet geometry comes into play. Correcting for listening room geometry requires a different bag of tricks.
yes, I know that, we all know it, and do it
but thats what I was pointing at .... is that really the right way
or could it be we are so sure about what we do is right, that we forget to look at other ways
and the topic actually asks directly... are we really doing it the right way, or could it be we may overlook something ?
but thats what I was pointing at .... is that really the right way
or could it be we are so sure about what we do is right, that we forget to look at other ways
and the topic actually asks directly... are we really doing it the right way, or could it be we may overlook something ?
So...you're suggesting that changing the way we deal with the way cabinet geometry alters frequency response, we'll find a way to not only to accomplish the first thing, but also extend response to 20 cycles, as well as erase room interaction?
Don't get me wrong, that's not rhetorical, I'm really looking for the answer.
maybe, but we wont know if dont look fore it, will we ?
but thanks for summing it up perfectly
maybe, but we wont know if dont look fore it, will we ?
IMO, the only one of those problems that you can't overcome by relocating or tinkering with the main speakers is extending the response to 20 cycles.
The only real way to do that, is by adding drivers that can move some air, and the locating them in different parts of the room: Add Subwoofers!
But, the miracle of this idea is..once we add the subwoofers to fix the first issue of bandwidth, the other issues go away. Suddenly, we don't really need a lot of BSC, or even any at all if we've got a speaker with a fat enough driver to push the area of interest down lower than the speaker will be playing.
So, by adding a few subwoofers, we've not only solved the issue of BSC in some cases, but we've solved the issue of speakers standing out in the room not having any low end grunt because of their placement...and we've solved the issue of room modes if we've spent some time on placement and tuning.
Therefore, using a few carefully placed subwoofers, not only do we solve your issue, but we solve several others. What good reason can we possibly come up with for NOT implementing it, except for "I can't afford subs" and "my wife doesn't like the way they look."
personally, for one, I do not go to a special room to hear music
honestly, it would simply feel stupidly boring to me just sitting there
next one wasnt intentional or expected, but I just now noticed I wrote hear music, and not listen to music
sweet spot ?
I know perfectly well what it is, and where it is, and I couldnt care less
maybe thats what makes us look different at this...topic
personally, for one, I do not go to a special room to hear music
honestly, it would simply feel stupidly boring to me just sitting there
next one wasnt intentional or expected, but I just now noticed I wrote hear music, and not listen to music
sweet spot ?
I know perfectly well what it is, and where it is, and I couldnt care less
maybe thats what makes us look different at this...topic
When I use the term "listening room" really what I mean is "the room where your audio gear is". It doesn't have to be special.
I don't really have a sweet spot, either. I have a seat that I usually sit in, and it happens to be in the middle, but it's not because it sounds a lot better, it's more because there's a groove in the couch right there where my **** fits.
edit: Wow, I can't believe **** is a bad word.
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