Go back to the garage and get us the pictures.
I'd sure want to see what you ended up with!
I think they look mantastic--my wife gives them a rating of 1.2 on the WAF scale.
I've moved up! The stained/polyurethaned front bezel and grey carpeted box have increased the WAF factor very slightly. Now to finish off the aesthetic portion, a little more black paint, some trimming of the speaker box carpet and that sort of thing before pictures--might even clean the garage. Go to the garage to make the speakers pretty--load CD and start playing tunes. Geez, it's hot in the summer so open a cold and frosty one
I wonder where my tools are? Can't find the right tool but I found another beer. OK, have the tools but need to go back to the house and get some sandpaper--there it is, right next to another beer! Great--now the battery in the drill is dead, same with the back up battery so I'll have to wait for the charger for 30 minutes. Two more barley pops go by and zoze speakahs sssshurrre look purty duh way they are! Sshhhoood I change the deeee-zine a toooouuch? I thinkkk I shoooullld....I thunk I neeeed anutha brewww to make sshhhure...
Motivation to finish the build is inversely proportional to if it makes sound.
Slooooow shipping helps--more savings to be blown on such things as stain, polyurethane, brushes, carpet, edge hardware and---beer! The time it takes the wagon train to arrive allows the week or so required for 3 coats of stain and 4 coats of poly on the bezel. To further improve the finish, after application allow for at least 2 hours of visual inspection to make sure no bugs land on your creation. This is very boring to do but critical so music and brew will keep the mind sharp for quality control purposes.
The proper excuse when your buddies come over and you're sitting in the garage drinking beer is this: "I'm breaking them in to hear if I need to change the crossover before finishing the final paint coat". Quality takes time...
Wesayso
Yes he made a filter for the tweeter.
The mmmmmmmmmmmmtmmmmmmmmmmmmm was what I had in mind also. The Norwidian Adyton uses this stragegy but with a ribbon as tweet. Looks like a Fountek or similar. Problem with that is it is bigger than a Vifa, so you cannot directly put it in instead of a Vifa. On the other hand a Ringradiator with Neo magnets can easylly be put into service.
You could also just make 25 holes and replace 1 vifa with a 8 ohm resistor so you get a symetrical source. You will not loose much in sensitivity as only 1 of 25 speakers is replaced by a resistor.
Koldby
Yes he made a filter for the tweeter.
The mmmmmmmmmmmmtmmmmmmmmmmmmm was what I had in mind also. The Norwidian Adyton uses this stragegy but with a ribbon as tweet. Looks like a Fountek or similar. Problem with that is it is bigger than a Vifa, so you cannot directly put it in instead of a Vifa. On the other hand a Ringradiator with Neo magnets can easylly be put into service.
You could also just make 25 holes and replace 1 vifa with a 8 ohm resistor so you get a symetrical source. You will not loose much in sensitivity as only 1 of 25 speakers is replaced by a resistor.
Koldby
You can go even smaller--have the tweeters touch each other will get them closer. I'm very close but left a slight gap for paint and tolerance issues. Must always leave slop in place when using a hole saw with a hand drill.
To get them closer--I'd use a drill press and you can sand off some of the plastic on the top--might get it down to 28mm C to C if you're very careful. I just wanted them to make it to 12KHz which they do and then start to roll off but make it.
They are garage speakers after all and the critical part is to prevent reflection from the cement floor and metal roof. They do that perfectly so it solves the #1 problem with garage sound. I voiced them to have "British sound" or strong midrange/upper midrange with a soft high and rolled off bass. Real bass requires proper subwoofers so an 18Hz tuned tapped horn will provide that function.
If I get all OCD about it, not a problem with a super tweeter, volume control and 12KHz crossover filter. I call it the "sparkle option" and it would work well for block parties since treble rolls off with distance. The super tweeter is a point source but running it over 10KHz is out of the ear's sensitive area so adjust the output to taste for hanging out in the garage. Crank it up to full for block parties and place the super tweeter box on the top of the box to prevent ear burn up close.
The Apex Jr. tweeters are quite loud but not when run in lines. I run my tweeters 6 series/8 parallel for a 5.6 ohm load at 6KHz. The 20 mids sit at 12.6 ohms at 6KHz to calm them down and seasoned with a Bessel 12dB per octave filter.
The sound is rather "bright" sounding when played in a garage with all hard and reflective surfaces. One day I'll drag them in the house to hear them with a traditional room with carpeting and sound absorbing couches and drapes. A buddy of mine has my dolly and although they have handles, the 102 pound (46 KG) weight is not something I wish to hand carry.
When ordering the tweeters, order a dozen or so spare ones--you can experiment with machining flats at the top/bottom of the frames so see what would be the best size. I ordered a dozen spares with a recent order and they arrived with a foam gasket to replace the older paper version. It might help when machining the tweeter frames to 28mm flats.
My meter tells me they roll off quickly below 6KHz, I get readings at least 3dB down at 5KHz so that can cause issues. If you use a Butterworth filter, the extra 3dB drop would probably sound better so it can be done.
I tried a 4,300Hz 3rd order filter--the bitter taste of failure!
Luckily those Aurasound 3" full ranges when stacked 20 up work well to a little over 5KHz so I used a 2nd order Bessel filter to give the tweet lines and mid lines a mild bump. I found an array driver sniffing around--I looked at the charts and it has the "array curve" or about a 10dB rise in output starting around 1KHz and peaking around 8KHz. Sure hope the DIY guys on the PA side look at frequency response curves and note it would not work well alone.
If you have to go lower than 6KHz with the Apex tweeters--I'd use the 3rd order filter and cross them at 5.5KHz LR or 5KHz BW depending on what you are using for a mid.
sony buyout
Sony buyout project
Sony buyout 5.25 driver and a line array based on it. Just FIY. Total cost of the array was under $150 including drivers and crossover parts.
hth to look at some aspects of the design process.
Sony buyout project
Sony buyout 5.25 driver and a line array based on it. Just FIY. Total cost of the array was under $150 including drivers and crossover parts.
hth to look at some aspects of the design process.
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my version is coming along - help needed
hi all,
well after many years I'm finally getting closer to my line array goal. I'm using the old NSB Pioneer 4" woofers and the Apex JR tweeters. 16 woofers and 48 tweeters. Here are some preliminary pictures.
Mounting is from the back and I've given a radius to the front side with the router. The speakers enclosure will be rounded thus the cutouts on the sides.
Before continuing with the box enclosure I would like to fixate all cables. Thus my question. What is the best wiring strategy? I'm not sure if I would run them at 4ohm, 6ohm or 8ohm and thus I need some flexibility in my wiring. What would you recommend? How would I prepare so that I can choose later maybe with a switch?
Could you give me some pointers please.
hi all,
well after many years I'm finally getting closer to my line array goal. I'm using the old NSB Pioneer 4" woofers and the Apex JR tweeters. 16 woofers and 48 tweeters. Here are some preliminary pictures.
Mounting is from the back and I've given a radius to the front side with the router. The speakers enclosure will be rounded thus the cutouts on the sides.
Before continuing with the box enclosure I would like to fixate all cables. Thus my question. What is the best wiring strategy? I'm not sure if I would run them at 4ohm, 6ohm or 8ohm and thus I need some flexibility in my wiring. What would you recommend? How would I prepare so that I can choose later maybe with a switch?
Could you give me some pointers please.
Attachments
Great work on the baffle!
My arrays use 12 five inch woofers, 20 three-inch fullranges for mids and 48 Apex Jr. tweeters--but don't look as good as your router work. I wired my woofers for 5.2 ohms, mids at 13 ohms and Apex Jr. tweeters for 5.6 ohms.
The wiring depends on the output of each line, the tweeters are wired 6 series and 8 parallel. Wired that way, the impedance at 6,000 Hz was 5.6 ohms and the tweeters need the spl boost since their output could use it. My advice is to wire the tweeters at a very low impedance for max output then adjust by adding resistors in the crossover if needed. 196 solder connections on the tweets then the additional wiring to get the loom done--then do it again for the second speaker is something you only want to do once!
My arrays use 12 five inch woofers, 20 three-inch fullranges for mids and 48 Apex Jr. tweeters--but don't look as good as your router work. I wired my woofers for 5.2 ohms, mids at 13 ohms and Apex Jr. tweeters for 5.6 ohms.
The wiring depends on the output of each line, the tweeters are wired 6 series and 8 parallel. Wired that way, the impedance at 6,000 Hz was 5.6 ohms and the tweeters need the spl boost since their output could use it. My advice is to wire the tweeters at a very low impedance for max output then adjust by adding resistors in the crossover if needed. 196 solder connections on the tweets then the additional wiring to get the loom done--then do it again for the second speaker is something you only want to do once!
Great work on the baffle!
My arrays use 12 five inch woofers, 20 three-inch fullranges for mids and 48 Apex Jr. tweeters--but don't look as good as your router work. I wired my woofers for 5.2 ohms, mids at 13 ohms and Apex Jr. tweeters for 5.6 ohms.
The wiring depends on the output of each line, the tweeters are wired 6 series and 8 parallel. Wired that way, the impedance at 6,000 Hz was 5.6 ohms and the tweeters need the spl boost since their output could use it. My advice is to wire the tweeters at a very low impedance for max output then adjust by adding resistors in the crossover if needed. 196 solder connections on the tweets then the additional wiring to get the loom done--then do it again for the second speaker is something you only want to do once!
Considering that I have 7 identical towers to do thats a lot of solder connections. I will not use a traditional crossover since these will be active speakers and crossover will be done using miniDSP platform.
So how did you handle the wiring exactly. You solder onto each speaker a wire of equal length and different color? Then you do the connections for series parallel using these wires? What is loom? You say very low impedance for tweeters. What is that? 4ohm? If doing wiring for both 4ohm and 8ohm is to much maybe I will just run both woofer and tweeter line at 4ohm. Is that a good idea?
Final point. Internal wiring to each tweeter and woofer. What should be the minimal wire thickness that I should use to each individual speaker? Can I use cat5e individual wires (24 AWG) or should I increase? I will have one amp module of 300W at 4ohm per woofer line and another 300w per tweeter line.
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I wired my tweeters with 18 AWG speaker wire--because I had two spools of it. My woofers and mids use the same 18AWG until the final two connection wires to the crossover board. To limit the amount of wire you use and the amount of solder connections--I first wired 6 tweeters in series and took each wire off the series connection and wired it in parallel with each wire as it headed down the line. This will prevent massive amounts of wiring as you go down the line. I use the term "loom" as a way of saying wires that are wrapped together and zip tied in place to hold them. Don't forget to strap the wires to the bezel at multiple points--don't want many feet of wiring flopping around which can weaken the solder connections from vibration over time.
Since you are using electronic crossovers and amps for each line--it does not matter what the impedance is as long as the amps don't have issues. My line arrays vary from 6 ohms to 22 ohms across the frequency bands because I wired the mids at higher impedance to cut their output to match the tweeters. Such is life with passive crossovers--I tend to wire 6 to 8 ohms or higher since the old receivers I use are the traditional garage sound system devices. My 1981 Pioneer SX-3700 silver faced beast will run quit hot into a 4 ohm load--it has no problems with the arrays during the summer time hot season.
The 6 ohm minimum load of the arrays also allows them to be stacked vertical and tested at the local church with their Crown. One channel into the 3 ohm minimum load with the arrays in parallel and 4 ohms into the bass cabinet. Wiring them as 4 ohms would drop it to 2 ohms in parallel and things get a bit close with PA amps operating into that low of an impedance. If you plan on experimenting with stacking the arrays for mono operation for PA testing, go higher than 4 ohms to keep the amplifiers happy when running in parallel.
As far as what size speaker wiring? As long as the voltage drop does not exceed 5% due to cable resistance, then all is well. The main thing is good solder connections at the speaker drivers--don't use clip on wire terminals!
Hello All:
I'm new to this forum and want to build my first multi-channel line arrays (for stereo and HT). Though I'll need a lot of advice on several topics the first one I have to make is choice of driver. Unfortunately (or not depending on feedback) I found this forum and thread just after ordering 100X Tang Band W3-881SI 3" drivers Tang Band W3-881SI 3" Speaker 299-113for a 7-channel speaker setup with tall L+R front arrays much like Koldby's with TBD number of drivers allocated to center and surround speakers. The Tang Bands should arrive within the next day or two. My first question is whether to stick with them for my project or go with the Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3.5" drivers Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 264-1062. A couple of pros and cons come to mind with each driver:
Vifa Pro: Power handling (a major advantage versus the Tang Band-15W) at 50W RMS per driver which if accurate is a very compelling feature, as I could user few drivers for center and surround speakers versus the Tang Bands without risking overload, especially on loud HT transients.
Nominal Cost Increase Vs. Tang Band: I negotiated a good deal for a small increase in cost if I want to switch from the Tang Band to the Vifa drivers.
Pro Tang Band: Very good price plus impressive frequency response from 100hz up.
Relevant Factors:
* I'll be using a HTPC with 7.1 analog out as a prepro to a relatively powerful 7-channel amp (Outlaw 7700: 200WPC X7 8ohms, 300WPC X7 4ohms).
* The software player will be J.River Media Center (v17x).
* I'll use a pair of very accurate subwoofers for mid/low bass duty (Rythmik F12 servo sub)
* The listening room is moderately sized (~ 2900 cu feet) but opens to other rooms in the house.
* I don't have the space, tools, or skills to build my own enclosures so I'll have a local cabinet maker with CNC equipment do it for me.
Given all this, what driver would you recommend and why?
I'm new to this forum and want to build my first multi-channel line arrays (for stereo and HT). Though I'll need a lot of advice on several topics the first one I have to make is choice of driver. Unfortunately (or not depending on feedback) I found this forum and thread just after ordering 100X Tang Band W3-881SI 3" drivers Tang Band W3-881SI 3" Speaker 299-113for a 7-channel speaker setup with tall L+R front arrays much like Koldby's with TBD number of drivers allocated to center and surround speakers. The Tang Bands should arrive within the next day or two. My first question is whether to stick with them for my project or go with the Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3.5" drivers Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 264-1062. A couple of pros and cons come to mind with each driver:
Vifa Pro: Power handling (a major advantage versus the Tang Band-15W) at 50W RMS per driver which if accurate is a very compelling feature, as I could user few drivers for center and surround speakers versus the Tang Bands without risking overload, especially on loud HT transients.
Nominal Cost Increase Vs. Tang Band: I negotiated a good deal for a small increase in cost if I want to switch from the Tang Band to the Vifa drivers.
Pro Tang Band: Very good price plus impressive frequency response from 100hz up.
Relevant Factors:
* I'll be using a HTPC with 7.1 analog out as a prepro to a relatively powerful 7-channel amp (Outlaw 7700: 200WPC X7 8ohms, 300WPC X7 4ohms).
* The software player will be J.River Media Center (v17x).
* I'll use a pair of very accurate subwoofers for mid/low bass duty (Rythmik F12 servo sub)
* The listening room is moderately sized (~ 2900 cu feet) but opens to other rooms in the house.
* I don't have the space, tools, or skills to build my own enclosures so I'll have a local cabinet maker with CNC equipment do it for me.
Given all this, what driver would you recommend and why?
A buddy of mine was impressed that I have the mid/treble figured out on the garage array project. He studied sonar arrays in the Navy back in the day. The major problem of the course work was everything was "backwards" and it seemed impossible--but the sonar arrays worked so they had to fully understand the math.
If you run full-ranges, you'll have to run DSP and parametric EQ to adjust the mid/treble response and the Vifas also require adjustment. However, since they have rising response, it won't be as extreme as the Tang Bands. I use the TB speakers for dipole surround speakers in my HT for their flattish response. The Vifas would be shouty as mids in point source but are tamed in line arrays.
It sounds backwards, but line arrays work backwards compared to point source in some respects. They don't violate the rules--but by changing from point source to a line, it adds additional rules that don't come into play normally.
If line arrays ever are made in volumes enough for speaker manufactures to actually build one special purpose--it would be a lot simpler to build one. High powered TV speakers seem to work the best at this point, the Vifa is a TV speaker so it gets the nod. A DIY guy built one with 25 Vifas each with DSP and enjoys the speaker very much. Sure, he would like to throw a 6 foot ribbon with them crossed at 12K but such is the nature of DIY, always have to be messing around with your creations to make them your own.
Enjoy!
If you run full-ranges, you'll have to run DSP and parametric EQ to adjust the mid/treble response and the Vifas also require adjustment. However, since they have rising response, it won't be as extreme as the Tang Bands. I use the TB speakers for dipole surround speakers in my HT for their flattish response. The Vifas would be shouty as mids in point source but are tamed in line arrays.
It sounds backwards, but line arrays work backwards compared to point source in some respects. They don't violate the rules--but by changing from point source to a line, it adds additional rules that don't come into play normally.
If line arrays ever are made in volumes enough for speaker manufactures to actually build one special purpose--it would be a lot simpler to build one. High powered TV speakers seem to work the best at this point, the Vifa is a TV speaker so it gets the nod. A DIY guy built one with 25 Vifas each with DSP and enjoys the speaker very much. Sure, he would like to throw a 6 foot ribbon with them crossed at 12K but such is the nature of DIY, always have to be messing around with your creations to make them your own.
Enjoy!
18Hurts: Thanks for the quick reply. I forgot to mention that J.River Media Center has a very capable Parametric EQ built in for at least 7.1 individual channels (it may actually be able to support more than this but I'm not sure). JRMC also includes the Convolver room EQ system that can take input from Audiolense that Koldby mentioned. Both tools work completely in the digital domain. I have no experience with either but the line arrays will motivate me to try them out.
I like the idea and simplicity of a single driver (type not number), crossover-less speaker run full range with the understanding that EQ will be required.
Any other opinions on the Tang Band versus Vifa driver?
I like the idea and simplicity of a single driver (type not number), crossover-less speaker run full range with the understanding that EQ will be required.
Any other opinions on the Tang Band versus Vifa driver?