THANKS! 
It took me years to get all that together.
I'll go into much more detail later.
I got the TV speakers first and made the panels with just them (no tweeters). The idea was to make a "single" driver full range system.
It was OK, but it was milky in the high end and didn't have much low-end.
Then I made the woofer boxes and finally I got the tweeters.
Fortunately the design was such that it could take a lot of re-thinking and the addition of the tweeters without ruining it and having to do it all over again.
James.
It took me years to get all that together.
I'll go into much more detail later.
I got the TV speakers first and made the panels with just them (no tweeters). The idea was to make a "single" driver full range system.
It was OK, but it was milky in the high end and didn't have much low-end.
Then I made the woofer boxes and finally I got the tweeters.
Fortunately the design was such that it could take a lot of re-thinking and the addition of the tweeters without ruining it and having to do it all over again.
James.
Drooling for details, what if a second chance?
James,
So in essence, your array started as a cheap line array, and manifested into the three way system you have now. it would be interesting to see pictures of your journey if you have them...
What are the makes of those drivers, esp the TV drivers. The oval shape seems like a good idea for an array.
It seems like there are two general paths I see people going with arrays in general:
One is go full-range with EQ or go multi-way with no EQ but more amps and cross-over. I have always liked the full-range approach, as the sound is so well unified. The biggest issue I have had with full-range systems is the phuenominal Bass they have does not cut it at Louder levels due to IM distortion and driver limitations. Part of me wents to think I can get a nicer driver for an array and overcome this. Or should I bite the bullet, save up my clams and build a two way array with something like the BG Neo 8 and a line of 6' woofers? I imagine a system like that would have really good highs with minimal EQ, if it can be well integrated with the woofers. That system would not qualify for this thread, that is for sure!
I guess a good question for both James and 18 hurts, looking at the money and time you spent on your arrays that manifested into full fledged 3-way systems, if you where given the same time and money to build an array, what would you build, given what you learned from the first array?
Allen
James,
So in essence, your array started as a cheap line array, and manifested into the three way system you have now. it would be interesting to see pictures of your journey if you have them...
What are the makes of those drivers, esp the TV drivers. The oval shape seems like a good idea for an array.
It seems like there are two general paths I see people going with arrays in general:
One is go full-range with EQ or go multi-way with no EQ but more amps and cross-over. I have always liked the full-range approach, as the sound is so well unified. The biggest issue I have had with full-range systems is the phuenominal Bass they have does not cut it at Louder levels due to IM distortion and driver limitations. Part of me wents to think I can get a nicer driver for an array and overcome this. Or should I bite the bullet, save up my clams and build a two way array with something like the BG Neo 8 and a line of 6' woofers? I imagine a system like that would have really good highs with minimal EQ, if it can be well integrated with the woofers. That system would not qualify for this thread, that is for sure!
I guess a good question for both James and 18 hurts, looking at the money and time you spent on your arrays that manifested into full fledged 3-way systems, if you where given the same time and money to build an array, what would you build, given what you learned from the first array?
Allen
Well, I saw the title of this thread and I must admit I'm almost embarrassed to tell you what I paid for the drivers!
I got an electronics catalog quite some time ago and it had a lot of surplus TV and VCR repair kits and stuff like that in it. It also had some no-name speakers. I had wanted to make a line array for a very long time. I saw a neat little TV speaker that was on sale. I think they wanted like $1 for it, but if you bought enough of them you could get them for $0.50 each or something like that. I called the company and talked to a guy there and he told me I could get a case of 54. So I ordered 2 cases. When I got them I liked them so much I made arrangements to order 16 more cases. It came on a palette, delivered by a freight truck. I ended up with about 1000 drivers for a total price of $400 including the shipping! ($0.40 each)
The woofers are something I was already familiar with. I had made a previous design using these woofers in iso-baric pairs. So I ordered two boxes of 8 for a total of 16 woofers for about $220, from MCM Electronics.
The tweeters are the really sick part! Parts Express sent me a flyer with an inventory buy-out special. They had boxes of 200 tweeters for $10 per box! I messed with the online order form and quickly realized that the shipping for a box of 200 tweeters was more than $10. But PE offers free shipping for orders of $100 or more. So....... I ordered 10 boxes and got them shipped to my house for exactly $100! I decided I needed a three way active crossover and some other stuff, So I placed another order with PE. I looked up the tweeters and they changed their policy. They would only let you order two cartons per order. Since my order was already over $100 I got two more boxes. So I got 2400 tweeters for $120 shipped. That's $0.05 each!
So I got all the woofers for $220, all the TV speakers for $28.80 and all the tweeters for $4.90 for the system you see in the pictures. That's $253.70 in drivers. The cabinet materials cost me WAY more than that and they took a crazy long time to build.
So, I guess at least part of the answer to your question about my preference of using tweeters or not has to do with the fact that it was an option for $4.90!
Would I make the same choices in the future? I sure hope so! I have about 900 TV speakers and 2300 tweeters in boxes here at my house! I want to design a new system that is complete with class D amps. I want to use the 10" version of the MCM woofer that is like the big brother to the 8" that I used in the current system. I also want to use a double line of TV speakers with the tweeters up the middle. I'm thinking about 80 TV speakers per side in 2 lines of 40 and a line of 60 tweeters.
James.
I got an electronics catalog quite some time ago and it had a lot of surplus TV and VCR repair kits and stuff like that in it. It also had some no-name speakers. I had wanted to make a line array for a very long time. I saw a neat little TV speaker that was on sale. I think they wanted like $1 for it, but if you bought enough of them you could get them for $0.50 each or something like that. I called the company and talked to a guy there and he told me I could get a case of 54. So I ordered 2 cases. When I got them I liked them so much I made arrangements to order 16 more cases. It came on a palette, delivered by a freight truck. I ended up with about 1000 drivers for a total price of $400 including the shipping! ($0.40 each)
The woofers are something I was already familiar with. I had made a previous design using these woofers in iso-baric pairs. So I ordered two boxes of 8 for a total of 16 woofers for about $220, from MCM Electronics.
The tweeters are the really sick part! Parts Express sent me a flyer with an inventory buy-out special. They had boxes of 200 tweeters for $10 per box! I messed with the online order form and quickly realized that the shipping for a box of 200 tweeters was more than $10. But PE offers free shipping for orders of $100 or more. So....... I ordered 10 boxes and got them shipped to my house for exactly $100! I decided I needed a three way active crossover and some other stuff, So I placed another order with PE. I looked up the tweeters and they changed their policy. They would only let you order two cartons per order. Since my order was already over $100 I got two more boxes. So I got 2400 tweeters for $120 shipped. That's $0.05 each!
So I got all the woofers for $220, all the TV speakers for $28.80 and all the tweeters for $4.90 for the system you see in the pictures. That's $253.70 in drivers. The cabinet materials cost me WAY more than that and they took a crazy long time to build.
So, I guess at least part of the answer to your question about my preference of using tweeters or not has to do with the fact that it was an option for $4.90!
Would I make the same choices in the future? I sure hope so! I have about 900 TV speakers and 2300 tweeters in boxes here at my house! I want to design a new system that is complete with class D amps. I want to use the 10" version of the MCM woofer that is like the big brother to the 8" that I used in the current system. I also want to use a double line of TV speakers with the tweeters up the middle. I'm thinking about 80 TV speakers per side in 2 lines of 40 and a line of 60 tweeters.
James.
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Wow!
I like it!
I have couple of boxes of oval TV drivers, but it is PITA to force myself to make holes for them!
OMG! You have no idea what I had to go through to make these things! The magnet on each TV speaker has a metal cover to shield the field. There is a tiny raised ridge along the bottom edge of that steel cup that makes it impossible to put the speakers together frame to frame. So I had to grind that off of every speaker!
Then I came up with a way to make the two sides of the front baffle come together to hold each side of the line of speakers. So, during the assembly, the front baffle was actually held together by nothing but the speaker frames. I stuffed thick sticky window putty around every driver and in between them to seal them.
The panels are made using 4" ID ABS plastic pipe that is more than 1/4" thick. I split the pipe and used it on the outer edges. That determined the thickness of the whole panel. I wanted to make them wide for a nice baffle effect. So 36" wide and 36 speakers high determined the total cabinet volume.
I measured the T/S parameters of the speakers and figured the box was about 3 or 4 times as big as it needed to be to not have much of an effect on the natural roll-off of the speakers.
The panel is made something like an airplane wing. It has 1/4" Masonite struts inside at irregular intervals. The design and ideology of these cabinets is nothing like any other speaker box I have ever built.
I looked at many many line array projects on the web before I made these. I wanted to make sure I had enough box volume for the speakers. I think that is a common mistake. I also wanted a nice wide baffle with a rolled edge. I placed the lines a bit off center. To be honest, I borrowed some ideas from the infamous Infinity Reference Standard!
The sound of the system is remarkable. Everyone who sees and hears them is blown away. I think the most noticeable thing is the dynamic impact. With all these cones moving such a tiny amount to make all that sound there is no mechanical compression of the audio signal. The headroom and max SPL is SICK!
James.
Then I came up with a way to make the two sides of the front baffle come together to hold each side of the line of speakers. So, during the assembly, the front baffle was actually held together by nothing but the speaker frames. I stuffed thick sticky window putty around every driver and in between them to seal them.
The panels are made using 4" ID ABS plastic pipe that is more than 1/4" thick. I split the pipe and used it on the outer edges. That determined the thickness of the whole panel. I wanted to make them wide for a nice baffle effect. So 36" wide and 36 speakers high determined the total cabinet volume.
I measured the T/S parameters of the speakers and figured the box was about 3 or 4 times as big as it needed to be to not have much of an effect on the natural roll-off of the speakers.
The panel is made something like an airplane wing. It has 1/4" Masonite struts inside at irregular intervals. The design and ideology of these cabinets is nothing like any other speaker box I have ever built.
I looked at many many line array projects on the web before I made these. I wanted to make sure I had enough box volume for the speakers. I think that is a common mistake. I also wanted a nice wide baffle with a rolled edge. I placed the lines a bit off center. To be honest, I borrowed some ideas from the infamous Infinity Reference Standard!
The sound of the system is remarkable. Everyone who sees and hears them is blown away. I think the most noticeable thing is the dynamic impact. With all these cones moving such a tiny amount to make all that sound there is no mechanical compression of the audio signal. The headroom and max SPL is SICK!
James.
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Original Inspiration: Mr Russell's IDS
Thanks wesayso, the IDS: The Return of Roger Russell was the original inspiration for me to build my array, which now has the title of "Cheap and Cheerful'. I just got done sharing the sound of these arrays with a musican freind of mine who writes and plays drums, guitar, bass, vocals in his own original music. He was pretty impressed! He liked that the music sounds like it is right in front of you. He likes Cheap and Cheerfull better then the Avebury, and the funny thing, in alot of ways, I do too! It was very aparent listening to the recording we created together of his latest song, that there is someng very specail indeed about the Array: It took us back in time to that live recording session! In a "Hi Fi" audiophile sense, the Avebury is a better speaker, the instruments have a more true to life tone. But it still sounds like a stereo, it is like watching the music on TV, the music was not in the room with us, like it was on the array. With the array, you can touch the music. I am getting sold on this concept.
I really like the idea of keeping full-range. In fact I recall Roger Russell, with his proven wisdom and credentials, found his IDS more enjoyable then his McIntosh 3-way arrays! I just need to find the right driver. I am thinking the Fountex or the smaller Mark Audio drivers. The only problem with both those units are the big bessels. I can carefully find a way to cut the poly based Mark Audio bessels. The steel of the Fountex, I really do not have the right tooling for. I have left a post on the the IDS thread for Dave of planet 10 to leave a list of other possiblities.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-2.html
I am in no hurry, as I do not have the discressionary funding for this, and will not for about eight months. (of course, I have considered selling my Avebury! Hard to let go of something I have put a lot of passion into making) There is a lot I can do to improve the Cheap and Cheerful also, starting with a cabinet make over. Also, does anyone have any information of proven methods of taming that shouty 2kHz peak of the NSF driver? If I fix that, along with the cabinet resonance at 100 Hz, all this system will need for EQ, would be a standard 10 kHz treble boost and a subwoofer for the low end. This driver does not do low very well (but that could be cabinet related too) At least there is a path forward.
Allen
Thanks wesayso, the IDS: The Return of Roger Russell was the original inspiration for me to build my array, which now has the title of "Cheap and Cheerful'
. I just got done sharing the sound of these arrays with a musican freind of mine who writes and plays drums, guitar, bass, vocals in his own original music. He was pretty impressed! He liked that the music sounds like it is right in front of you. He likes Cheap and Cheerfull better then the Avebury, and the funny thing, in alot of ways, I do too! It was very aparent listening to the recording we created together of his latest song, that there is someng very specail indeed about the Array: It took us back in time to that live recording session! In a "Hi Fi" audiophile sense, the Avebury is a better speaker, the instruments have a more true to life tone. But it still sounds like a stereo, it is like watching the music on TV, the music was not in the room with us, like it was on the array. With the array, you can touch the music. I am getting sold on this concept. I really like the idea of keeping full-range. In fact I recall Roger Russell, with his proven wisdom and credentials, found his IDS more enjoyable then his McIntosh 3-way arrays! I just need to find the right driver. I am thinking the Fountex or the smaller Mark Audio drivers. The only problem with both those units are the big bessels. I can carefully find a way to cut
the poly based Mark Audio bessels. The steel of the Fountex, I really do not have the right tooling for. I have left a post on the the IDS thread for Dave of planet 10 to leave a list of other possiblities. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-2.html
I am in no hurry, as I do not have the discressionary funding for this, and will not for about eight months. (of course, I have considered selling my Avebury! Hard to let go of something I have put a lot of passion into making) There is a lot I can do to improve the Cheap and Cheerful also, starting with a cabinet make over. Also, does anyone have any information of proven methods of taming that shouty 2kHz peak of the NSF driver? If I fix that, along with the cabinet resonance at 100 Hz, all this system will need for EQ, would be a standard 10 kHz treble boost and a subwoofer for the low end. This driver does not do low very well (but that could be cabinet related too) At least there is a path forward.
Allen
Now back to the dialog at hand
James,
Wow, that is really something! $253.70, you did well, and your system certainly is quite an inspiration for this thread! It will be interesting what you do with all those other drivers you have! I have one concern:
With your 3.5 kHz crossover frequency, and your horizonal center to center spacing between your lines of TV speakers, I believe according to Jim's white paper, that those two mid-range lines will interfer with each other. It may cause more harm then good. If anything, I would build your cabinets as high as possible (which I think you are), floor to ceiling, so you get the full nearfeild effect at the lower frequencies. I may not be visaulizing your idea correctly, but I would hate to see you cut all those ovals
and have an interference problem like that. Of course, you could build each mid line in their own cabinets, so if it does not work, nothing is lost. Just throwing out concerns and ideas here.
What class D amps are you planing on using? I am drooling over the Hypex Ncore, but may have to settle for the HG400 with regulators at first. I have used the Tri path Sure Amps sold from parts express, but I find that my Chip Amps have a slightly more open sound stage. I did not modify the Sure amps thou.
Anyway, back to work!
God Bless
Allen
James,
Wow, that is really something! $253.70, you did well, and your system certainly is quite an inspiration for this thread! It will be interesting what you do with all those other drivers you have! I have one concern:
With your 3.5 kHz crossover frequency, and your horizonal center to center spacing between your lines of TV speakers, I believe according to Jim's white paper, that those two mid-range lines will interfer with each other. It may cause more harm then good. If anything, I would build your cabinets as high as possible (which I think you are), floor to ceiling, so you get the full nearfeild effect at the lower frequencies. I may not be visaulizing your idea correctly, but I would hate to see you cut all those ovals
and have an interference problem like that. Of course, you could build each mid line in their own cabinets, so if it does not work, nothing is lost. Just throwing out concerns and ideas here. What class D amps are you planing on using? I am drooling over the Hypex Ncore, but may have to settle for the HG400 with regulators at first. I have used the Tri path Sure Amps sold from parts express, but I find that my Chip Amps have a slightly more open sound stage. I did not modify the Sure amps thou.
Anyway, back to work!
God Bless
Allen
Heh, I thought you made holes for each oval speaker.
Window putty is good if frames are not oval. I used rectangular drivers made by Fostex for Sony TV, it was not a problem to mount them. But with real ovals it is PITA even to think about making holes.
Window putty is good if frames are not oval. I used rectangular drivers made by Fostex for Sony TV, it was not a problem to mount them. But with real ovals it is PITA even to think about making holes.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I thought about what effect a dual line of TV speakers might have. I would prototype it first, I think. If anything, I think it might beam a little bit toward the top end of the TV speaker's range. That's not such a bad thing.
I'm not sure what class D amps to use. To be honest I was going to read everything I could find about them here at DIY and probably ask some questions. One thing that is nice about them in general is that they are inexpensive enough to experiment with them and not get burned.
I'm not sure what class D amps to use. To be honest I was going to read everything I could find about them here at DIY and probably ask some questions. One thing that is nice about them in general is that they are inexpensive enough to experiment with them and not get burned.
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What is OTL?
I think I know what you are saying. If you hook them all in series they will require a whole lot of voltage and not so much current.
I thought about that. But I think one of the main reasons why speakers are fairly low impedance is so that people don't get seriously shocked by the output of an audio amp.
Is that a pun?
If it's a tube amp, don't you mean voltagely?
James.
I think I know what you are saying. If you hook them all in series they will require a whole lot of voltage and not so much current.
I thought about that. But I think one of the main reasons why speakers are fairly low impedance is so that people don't get seriously shocked by the output of an audio amp.
Is that a pun?
If it's a tube amp, don't you mean voltagely?
James.
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Awesome looking build! How did these end up sounding? Did you just cut all the holes and use a router to round off the baffle holes?
Sony, Fostex, so thats where these came from???
I measured one pair:
1.5x5.25inches = 7.875sqIn.
Re: 6.926ohms
Le: 0.1915mH (yes, that low! But I don't trust this number)
Fs: 141.3Hz
Qts: 1.433
Qes: 1.796
Qms: 7.093
Mms: 3.089g
VAS: 0.0526cuFt.
SPL: 85.58 1W/1M
WT3 by 10g added mass.
Fs of the second was about 135.3, otherwise in agreement...
Tanner pricetag said: $3.95
This was a long time ago, probably gone by now.
I couldn't afford enough of them to try a line array at the time.
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OPC, Thanks SO Much for sharing these Zaph graphs and numbers. I was wishing he would have tested these drivers and couldn't understand how he would have not, since they appear to be one of the best 3 inch drivers in the world. I have to laugh that such a top quality driver is only $12 per, here in the US. I'm getting very jazzed up about building something very similar to what you and Wesayso have built. I just need to sell my triamp'd open baffle speakers first so there's room.
One of the things Roger Russel mentioned, but very few others have touched on, is the concept that when a line array goes from floor to ceiling (or pretty close), the reflections off the floor and ceiling effectively elongate the array vertically, thereby making the array effectively 3-4 times as long, which gives even better results. Maybe that only applies to certain frequencies. I'm not sure.
The biggest feature in my mind is that they work significantly better with typical listening room acoustics than virtually all of the more conventional designs. It's been my opinion for years that the weakest link in most playback systems is not the speaker (unless they really suck), but how the speaker interacts with the room acoustics. Floor to ceiling line arrays appears to represent a huge step forward in this area. And I do plan to have some kind of metal shop fabricate the front panels for me. Thanks for the info on that too.