Didn't mean to sound down on them--since they will be added to my 2-way line array to make it a 3-way, I don't need anything past 6 KHz or below 400 so it looked like a good fit as a wide band mid. Aurasound provided the distortion charts, I looked at them and 400 to 6 KHz has the lowest distortion.
The entire point of the build is to control vertical dispersion since it lives on a cement floor in a metal garage. The 2-ways met all my minimum requirements so now to make them sound (and look) better. My greatest fear (and the thing that terrifies my wife) is they might sound so good I'll want to put the Infinities in the garage.
Although they will have everything from 4 coats of polyurethane, wood stain and smooth wood working--I don't think something 6 feet 3 inches tall will ever meet WAF. The entire point of the build is to control vertical dispersion since it lives on a cement floor in a metal garage. The 2-ways met all my minimum requirements so now to make them sound (and look) better. My greatest fear (and the thing that terrifies my wife) is they might sound so good I'll want to put the Infinities in the garage.
Haha. I suspect that the width is a bigger problem than the height in terms of WAF; I have friends, a couple, one of which (guess who) can't stand my speaker setup. To be fair, I do have Rec III's AND Bose 301's in my bedroom, and I fully admit that this is a bit much. Said friend did, however, like Owen's 6" wide Vifa towers. I think that line array strikes a compromise (almost a non-compromise) between WAF and sound quality at a pretty fair price, especially considering the bass correction means no big, ugly subwoofers. I think that I would build those if it weren't for my desire to build something from scratch on my own.
I'm going to bet that the same friend will not appreciate my current proposal to replace the 301's with TangBand 4" titanium Voigt Pipes (again, in the bedroom). I'll argue that they have a very modern look and appeal, but I don't think the Luis Vutton-wearing-crowd will appreciate that.
Greg
Very true,
The 13"W x 75"H line arrays look like monsters in comparison to my house Infinity Overture 1 with (largish) sub system. Not a problem in the garage, they actually have that "cool man-cave serious sound" look to them but not interior friendly. Any allusion that I can make the things WAF friendly goes out the window when I start adding 5.5 foot tall, 14 inch wide and 2 feet deep tapped horns--one on each side.
To make a WAF line array? The Vifas would be a much better concept since DSP can be used and they will go down to proper subwoofer crossing levels. Line arrays in a house--they could be a good compromise. They can be very narrow for almost no floor space taken up and at least 2 meters tall for that "big man look" so everyone wins?
How far can you get by making them black for that "slimming" effect?
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Hey Guys,
Chiming in again. I am looking at building BFM TLAH (but a bit bigger maybe) using the Vifa. I can get them here in Aus land for a reasonable price! Who woulda thought!! I was amazed to find koldby has already got a build done, with amazing results. I am thinking of either 12 or 16 per side crossed at 6-7k with Tweets just to really flush out that top end. (Maybe the apex Jr). I will cross over at 80Hz or so to subs. I like an authoritative bass.
Sound like an ok idea?
I Have a question though: Which is the right spec sheet? http://www.essentialaudio.com.au/pdf/vifa/Vifa_TC9FD-18-08.pdf or http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/Speakers/Vifa/TC9-FD-18-08.pdf
They have different Fs and Qts. Among a bunch of different stats. Even PE has different stats on it's sale page to it's manf pdf.
Chiming in again. I am looking at building BFM TLAH (but a bit bigger maybe) using the Vifa. I can get them here in Aus land for a reasonable price! Who woulda thought!! I was amazed to find koldby has already got a build done, with amazing results. I am thinking of either 12 or 16 per side crossed at 6-7k with Tweets just to really flush out that top end. (Maybe the apex Jr). I will cross over at 80Hz or so to subs. I like an authoritative bass.
Sound like an ok idea?
I Have a question though: Which is the right spec sheet? http://www.essentialaudio.com.au/pdf/vifa/Vifa_TC9FD-18-08.pdf or http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/Speakers/Vifa/TC9-FD-18-08.pdf
They have different Fs and Qts. Among a bunch of different stats. Even PE has different stats on it's sale page to it's manf pdf.
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Interesting trouble with vifa/tymphany cut sheet issues. I could use my PE woofer tester,, but I think that Zaph had already done something similar than that. Owen had published krutke's data some pages ago.
I doubted the vifa's bass prowess for a while. After hearing the single drivers bass response, I'd believe that they can really kick. That said, I seriously doubt that 12 or 16 drivers would satisfy someone who claims to really like bass. My plans were for 28 (I believe that this is the same as owens speakers. Bass needs surface area, and I doubt 16 would cut it without subwoofer assistance. That said, I'd love to hear the vifas with a tweeter line to correct the beaming and combing, and I've considered building a 4-per-side vifa array with apex jr tweeter lines. These wouldn't be for ht use though.
Greg
Yeah I found zaph's test data (very easy lol) and it matches http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/Speakers/Vifa/TC9-FD-18-08.pdf
Which is unfortunate as it moves them out of desireable range for specs. But I might continue investigating them anyway, maybe another LA design which will use them well will crop up.
Given that I'd like to cross to tweets with them, would using the Apex Jr be bit of a let down? Would they benefit from a bit nicer tweet? I haven't heard the apex Jr, I have just heard they are good Just not great.
Which is unfortunate as it moves them out of desireable range for specs. But I might continue investigating them anyway, maybe another LA design which will use them well will crop up.
Given that I'd like to cross to tweets with them, would using the Apex Jr be bit of a let down? Would they benefit from a bit nicer tweet? I haven't heard the apex Jr, I have just heard they are good Just not great.
I'm sure that anything would benefit from a nicer tweeter, but there's very little affordable for a large array. Putting $12 each into little Dayton 3/4" domes may be better (although maybe not), but 128 of them per pair would be obscenely expensive. You may be better off using $30/each 2-3" full range drivers for the same effect. I've messed with the Apex Jrs for a little while now, and for $0.50 each, they're spectacular. They're as good as my Sinar Baja acoustics driver (which are very good for their $6 each), maybe a hair better as a supertweeter. This is a good point as the Vifas can go as high as you need them to, and won't comb till 10kHz.
I have tried a line of 16 (only on one side) and they sound pretty good to me. I'm probably going to try my set of 4/each Vifas with the line of 8-16 Apex Jr tweeters and see how it goes. Should be a good set of desktop speakers with bass correction. My single driver Vifa can take all the bass that my stereo can turn up and still go loud enough to hear well throughout the office.
Greg
I would use a sealed enclosure with a Q of 1 (volume = Vas) to get a little lower tuning to make it to the subs. The Vifa has an Fs of 105 Hz so it would help. This will lower power handling so don't get too rowdy.
For the tweets, make them the same length (height) as the 16 Vifas--that way if you put them at ceiling level or change what you are doing with them, the sound field will be even. Plan on approx. 40 tweeters to match up with the 16 Vifa line.
I use 48 Apex Jrs with a line of 12 five inch woofers and 21 three inch full ranges if that helps. Did some testing with the Apex Jr tweeters and they are fairly smooth and consistent from 6 KHz and up--they smoked my ears at the 12.5 KHz level but fell off a cliff past 16 KHz--the price you pay for arrays.
I've built the first 3-way array and have tested it. Now I'm working on the second box and have the crossover network design finished. A mild 2dB dip from 5 to 8 KHz will be smoothed with a Bessel filter for a touch of overlap and done.
My advice is all the speakers are the same line length, sealed and stuffed with braces at angles to prevent standing waves. Perfect symmetry on the outside and drunken idiot acoustic chaos on the inside. All those circles you cut out of the bezel make nice sound deflectors for the inside to prevent standing waves, dampen the box and attach wiring harness screws.
Very tall, narrow boxes make great resonators--I test my full ranges at around 100 Hz or the wavelength of the enclosure. They don't resonate there so I know all the deflectors, stuffing and wires took care of the standing waves.
I am actually considering using these guys: Tang Band W3-881SI
Which I can get delivered for $10ea. Which is a thoroughly decent price here in Aus. I have read a few posts saying that the very low xmax is a bit misleading. They have been used in TABAQ builds and run hard at 50Hz with 3-4mm of excursion and performed admirably. High Passed at 90Hz and not needing much power, do you guys think these might work well up to 7-8k Hz?
Which I can get delivered for $10ea. Which is a thoroughly decent price here in Aus. I have read a few posts saying that the very low xmax is a bit misleading. They have been used in TABAQ builds and run hard at 50Hz with 3-4mm of excursion and performed admirably. High Passed at 90Hz and not needing much power, do you guys think these might work well up to 7-8k Hz?
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Mounting from behind is a very good solution with the Vifas.
It looks very neat and clean and it is the best way to avoid reflections and refractions from the baffle.
Sounds like a good solution to make the baffle only out of alu - especially as a sandwich. That could be a very dead mountingplatform for the drivers.
Do not forget to post pictures of the result, though!!!
A freind of my uses 16 of these Vifas in a corner line array much like the Murphy Corner Array in a smallish room and he has compensated them all the way down.
He has used them with 50 Watts and even 25 Watts and sayes that he is not missing anything in the bottom. Actually he is very surprised how well the play bass and how small the movement of the drivers are even when playing loud. Of course you get a helping hand from the room whith corner loaded line arrays.
I havent heard his system yet, though.
Klodby
I haven't even started my build yet... life keeps getting in my way. I was wondering how these speakers hold up after a few weeks, are you still as excited as when you first played them?
I'm planning on starting soon, still not sure about the baffle material though, I'll likely first make the rest and decide later on.
Well I don´t think I have unleashed the full potential yet, but I have also found some limiting factors in the alu-tube enclosure.
I guess the internal volumen is a little too small for the Vifas and at the same time I am playing them in a large room and I like big late romantic symphonic music and big psykadelic rock.
My current setup with a single 18" bag-end type subwoofer dosent quite fill the bill and I am now planning a pair of open baffle , slot loaded a la Forsmann, 3x 10" crossed over @ 200 Hz. This I think will take all the stress and a little boomines around 100Hz out of the vifas.
I also want to experiment with a long ribbon tweeter over 5-8 khz.
My freind with the 16 vifa lines, uses a single tweeter crossed over @ 6 Khz and he claims a liitle more air in the top.
I am using the Audiolense digital x-over and room correction . Higly recomended!
Otherwise I am as enthusiastic about the tonality, the dynamics, the naturalness and the perspective these line sources can put up...!
Good luck with your future development.
Koldby
I guess the internal volumen is a little too small for the Vifas and at the same time I am playing them in a large room and I like big late romantic symphonic music and big psykadelic rock.
My current setup with a single 18" bag-end type subwoofer dosent quite fill the bill and I am now planning a pair of open baffle , slot loaded a la Forsmann, 3x 10" crossed over @ 200 Hz. This I think will take all the stress and a little boomines around 100Hz out of the vifas.
I also want to experiment with a long ribbon tweeter over 5-8 khz.
My freind with the 16 vifa lines, uses a single tweeter crossed over @ 6 Khz and he claims a liitle more air in the top.
I am using the Audiolense digital x-over and room correction . Higly recomended!
Otherwise I am as enthusiastic about the tonality, the dynamics, the naturalness and the perspective these line sources can put up...!
Good luck with your future development.
Koldby
First of all, thanks for replying this quick. I should get off my butt and start working!
But you made me wonder about the tweeter... I have thought about mounting a tweeter somewhere in the middle of the array....
My current preference beeing ring radiators it could be a Vifa or Scan Speak ring radiator crossed with a single cap at 6 Khz... maybe even in a little wave guide...
But you made me wonder about the tweeter... I have thought about mounting a tweeter somewhere in the middle of the array....
My current preference beeing ring radiators it could be a Vifa or Scan Speak ring radiator crossed with a single cap at 6 Khz... maybe even in a little wave guide...
It's alive!
I just finished my three-way line arrays, 12 Sony 5" woofers, 20 Aurasound NS3 16 ohm full ranges and 48 Apex Jr. Audax 10mm tweeters. The Q of the sealed box is 0.83 so it blends well with a quick and dirty 10" sub.
The screaming rising response of the NS3 full-ranges have been tamed and I run them at 13 ohms nominal into the 5.6 ohms nominal tweeter lines. They make it out to 12.5 KHz smoothly then start falling in output--close enough for a garage speaker. The F3 of the sealed box is 88Hz which blends well with the 10" sub tuned to 32 Hz and high passed at 80Hz. The arrays don't have a filter since the 1981 Pioneer silver faced receiver does not offer that--it does have an AUX in though! In DIY terms, it now becomes a 3.5 way but since the arrays are another source for bass, it blends better.
Had my sound engineer recording buddy come over, he was obviously not expecting much but heard the sparkle of the highs, the clear vocals of the mids and the smooth response of piano scales as he listened to classical music for around 30 minutes. Since line arrays can't work without DSP, he checked the bass/treble/loudness controls on the old receiver and they were flat at 0dB. He then looked at the inputs of the tape loop for a DSP box--empty. He smiled, gave me the thumbs up and said "You can make a passive line array, just use a pile of TV speakers for wide-band mids--I like these" Just as a parting shot, he mentioned the sub can't keep up with the clarity of the arrays (his way to nag me about building the tapped horn)
Only took 13 months and 3 revisions but they are done. What started as some speakers in the garage to play rock and party music has ended up being preferred for classical and symphonic music because of the clarity/low distortion of the mid range and the huge sound stage. The tremendous SPL helps with the dynamics of classical even with a 45 watt per channel Pioneer. Jimmy Carter was president when that thing was forged.
The lessons I've learned is to cross the tweeter lines at 6KHz and run them as hard as possible to get the output. Keep them packed together close (mine are at 1.4 inches or 35mm C to C) I installed the mids from the back of the bezel firing out with a 3.25 (82mm) C to C. The woofers were done the same way as I used two 1/2" plywood front panels and sandwiched them together. The inner panel has the mid range sealed enclosure attached to it. No problems with front bezel vibration, the 1" (25mm) thick front panel takes care of that and the enclosure for the mids adds stiffness.
It was quite simple to get the mids to work to 6KHz--they screamed with a 10dB rising response by themselves--just keep stacking them to naturally let the array phasing boost the low/mids until even. 20 of them did it, I was surprised. Used a Bessel filter to create a mild bump at 6KHz for smoothing purposes and done.
The enclosure for the full-ranges was too small with a very high Q and a large bump in output in the 200 to 400Hz range. Linkwitz-Riley -6dB filter underlapped to the woofers at 360 woofer/390 mids used the bump to smooth it out. Mr. Barry White on the CD player to test and it blended perfectly...done.
This would be the traditional specs
3-way vertical line array
Freq response 88 - 15KHz +/-3dB
70Hz F6
55Hz F10
Power Handling 250 watts program
Sensitivity 96dB
XO 5" woofer 360Hz 2nd order LR
3" mid 390Hz 2nd order LR
10mm tweeter 6KHz 2nd order Bessel
Box Q 0.828
Size 6'3"H x 13"W x 8"D (1905 x 330 x 200mm)
Weight 102 pounds (46.25 KG)
Nominal impedance 6 ohms
If the garage burned down and I had to build another set of arrays--I'd use 24 Vifas with DSP crossing to bass bins at 150Hz on either side. Throw in a super tweeter at 12KHz and done. Very educational building/rebuilding the 3-way passive arrays 3 times over the past year--but I won't do it again! I'd gladly lose the cool factor of 80 drivers in each box pointing at me, tweeter lines are not something I want to do again.
I just finished my three-way line arrays, 12 Sony 5" woofers, 20 Aurasound NS3 16 ohm full ranges and 48 Apex Jr. Audax 10mm tweeters. The Q of the sealed box is 0.83 so it blends well with a quick and dirty 10" sub.
The screaming rising response of the NS3 full-ranges have been tamed and I run them at 13 ohms nominal into the 5.6 ohms nominal tweeter lines. They make it out to 12.5 KHz smoothly then start falling in output--close enough for a garage speaker. The F3 of the sealed box is 88Hz which blends well with the 10" sub tuned to 32 Hz and high passed at 80Hz. The arrays don't have a filter since the 1981 Pioneer silver faced receiver does not offer that--it does have an AUX in though! In DIY terms, it now becomes a 3.5 way but since the arrays are another source for bass, it blends better.
Had my sound engineer recording buddy come over, he was obviously not expecting much but heard the sparkle of the highs, the clear vocals of the mids and the smooth response of piano scales as he listened to classical music for around 30 minutes. Since line arrays can't work without DSP, he checked the bass/treble/loudness controls on the old receiver and they were flat at 0dB. He then looked at the inputs of the tape loop for a DSP box--empty. He smiled, gave me the thumbs up and said "You can make a passive line array, just use a pile of TV speakers for wide-band mids--I like these" Just as a parting shot, he mentioned the sub can't keep up with the clarity of the arrays (his way to nag me about building the tapped horn)
Only took 13 months and 3 revisions but they are done. What started as some speakers in the garage to play rock and party music has ended up being preferred for classical and symphonic music because of the clarity/low distortion of the mid range and the huge sound stage. The tremendous SPL helps with the dynamics of classical even with a 45 watt per channel Pioneer. Jimmy Carter was president when that thing was forged.
The lessons I've learned is to cross the tweeter lines at 6KHz and run them as hard as possible to get the output. Keep them packed together close (mine are at 1.4 inches or 35mm C to C) I installed the mids from the back of the bezel firing out with a 3.25 (82mm) C to C. The woofers were done the same way as I used two 1/2" plywood front panels and sandwiched them together. The inner panel has the mid range sealed enclosure attached to it. No problems with front bezel vibration, the 1" (25mm) thick front panel takes care of that and the enclosure for the mids adds stiffness.
It was quite simple to get the mids to work to 6KHz--they screamed with a 10dB rising response by themselves--just keep stacking them to naturally let the array phasing boost the low/mids until even. 20 of them did it, I was surprised. Used a Bessel filter to create a mild bump at 6KHz for smoothing purposes and done.
The enclosure for the full-ranges was too small with a very high Q and a large bump in output in the 200 to 400Hz range. Linkwitz-Riley -6dB filter underlapped to the woofers at 360 woofer/390 mids used the bump to smooth it out. Mr. Barry White on the CD player to test and it blended perfectly...done.
This would be the traditional specs
3-way vertical line array
Freq response 88 - 15KHz +/-3dB
70Hz F6
55Hz F10
Power Handling 250 watts program
Sensitivity 96dB
XO 5" woofer 360Hz 2nd order LR
3" mid 390Hz 2nd order LR
10mm tweeter 6KHz 2nd order Bessel
Box Q 0.828
Size 6'3"H x 13"W x 8"D (1905 x 330 x 200mm)
Weight 102 pounds (46.25 KG)
Nominal impedance 6 ohms
If the garage burned down and I had to build another set of arrays--I'd use 24 Vifas with DSP crossing to bass bins at 150Hz on either side. Throw in a super tweeter at 12KHz and done. Very educational building/rebuilding the 3-way passive arrays 3 times over the past year--but I won't do it again! I'd gladly lose the cool factor of 80 drivers in each box pointing at me, tweeter lines are not something I want to do again.
I'd like to include it in the build so I'd have to save room upfront. If I use a 4" waveguide I guess I could first try the array with 26 holes in the baffle and close up the bottom hole. That way I could create a:
MMMMMMMMMMMMTMMMMMMMMMMMMM (lol) later on...
Did your friend do it passive? I mean the tweeter? The array with 25 vifa's act like one 8 ohm woofer. If I don't filter the top end could I just add a cap and for example a vifa XT25 crossed at ~ 6 Khz?
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It's alive!
I just finished my three-way line arrays, 12 Sony 5" woofers, 20 Aurasound NS3 16 ohm full ranges and 48 Apex Jr. Audax 10mm tweeters. The Q of the sealed box is 0.83 so it blends well with a quick and dirty 10" sub.
The screaming rising response of the NS3 full-ranges have been tamed and I run them at 13 ohms nominal into the 5.6 ohms nominal tweeter lines. They make it out to 12.5 KHz smoothly then start falling in output--close enough for a garage speaker. The F3 of the sealed box is 88Hz which blends well with the 10" sub tuned to 32 Hz and high passed at 80Hz. The arrays don't have a filter since the 1981 Pioneer silver faced receiver does not offer that--it does have an AUX in though! In DIY terms, it now becomes a 3.5 way but since the arrays are another source for bass, it blends better.
Had my sound engineer recording buddy come over, he was obviously not expecting much but heard the sparkle of the highs, the clear vocals of the mids and the smooth response of piano scales as he listened to classical music for around 30 minutes. Since line arrays can't work without DSP, he checked the bass/treble/loudness controls on the old receiver and they were flat at 0dB. He then looked at the inputs of the tape loop for a DSP box--empty. He smiled, gave me the thumbs up and said "You can make a passive line array, just use a pile of TV speakers for wide-band mids--I like these" Just as a parting shot, he mentioned the sub can't keep up with the clarity of the arrays (his way to nag me about building the tapped horn)
Only took 13 months and 3 revisions but they are done. What started as some speakers in the garage to play rock and party music has ended up being preferred for classical and symphonic music because of the clarity/low distortion of the mid range and the huge sound stage. The tremendous SPL helps with the dynamics of classical even with a 45 watt per channel Pioneer. Jimmy Carter was president when that thing was forged.
The lessons I've learned is to cross the tweeter lines at 6KHz and run them as hard as possible to get the output. Keep them packed together close (mine are at 1.4 inches or 35mm C to C) I installed the mids from the back of the bezel firing out with a 3.25 (82mm) C to C. The woofers were done the same way as I used two 1/2" plywood front panels and sandwiched them together. The inner panel has the mid range sealed enclosure attached to it. No problems with front bezel vibration, the 1" (25mm) thick front panel takes care of that and the enclosure for the mids adds stiffness.
It was quite simple to get the mids to work to 6KHz--they screamed with a 10dB rising response by themselves--just keep stacking them to naturally let the array phasing boost the low/mids until even. 20 of them did it, I was surprised. Used a Bessel filter to create a mild bump at 6KHz for smoothing purposes and done.
The enclosure for the full-ranges was too small with a very high Q and a large bump in output in the 200 to 400Hz range. Linkwitz-Riley -6dB filter underlapped to the woofers at 360 woofer/390 mids used the bump to smooth it out. Mr. Barry White on the CD player to test and it blended perfectly...done.
This would be the traditional specs
3-way vertical line array
Freq response 88 - 15KHz +/-3dB
70Hz F6
55Hz F10
Power Handling 250 watts program
Sensitivity 96dB
XO 5" woofer 360Hz 2nd order LR
3" mid 390Hz 2nd order LR
10mm tweeter 6KHz 2nd order Bessel
Box Q 0.828
Size 6'3"H x 13"W x 8"D (1905 x 330 x 200mm)
Weight 102 pounds (46.25 KG)
Nominal impedance 6 ohms
If the garage burned down and I had to build another set of arrays--I'd use 24 Vifas with DSP crossing to bass bins at 150Hz on either side. Throw in a super tweeter at 12KHz and done. Very educational building/rebuilding the 3-way passive arrays 3 times over the past year--but I won't do it again! I'd gladly lose the cool factor of 80 drivers in each box pointing at me, tweeter lines are not something I want to do again.
Go back to the garage and get us the pictures
.I'd sure want to see what you ended up with!