soongsc said:
This is the first time I've heard of anyone talk about series R in zobels, there are really only two types, and none have R in series with the signal path. What were you thinking?
I though we were talking about damping of back emf signals. Maybe I'm mistaken. But what impedance are you talking about here? The output impedance is rarely constant not because variation of loads. But because of component limitations.
I guess I'll just let you have fun with the other guys/gals. Sorry for interrupting.
Well rephrase your question maybe... I know what a zobel is soon but when you said all wires would be the same the first thought that went throuh my head was that you wanted to apply a zobel to each wire... so your question did not make sense to me...
well I said the output z is not constant and went on to say it is a very low q bp filter
Re: Spoke with a genius at lunch
I dont see any issue with that at all Sy...
Take an amp with 20,000 damping at 8 ohms that is a z of .0004 ohms (sweet)
Then to know what it is at 4 ohms its 4/.0004 = 10,000 etc
when you put them in an aligned box the whole point is to lower z not raise it in the resonance peak...
It doesnt matter that its a resistive load because damping a quality number
there is more than what you said too
You obviously did not show him the damping model that I posted brought to us by theil small...
It sounds like he is being straight up with you so if you show him that model he will take one look at and agree that damping is real...
Damping is rarely heard by anyone who has not specifically set out to test wire sizing or going active xover then it is really noticed So I would speciulate that he was thinking that he never heard it and never seen any work done in this area so none of this exists... most people just accept that their speakers sound the way they do because that is the way life is and have no idea bigger wire makes a difference and would never think to even examine it for that matter....
Did you ask brady if he had an explanation why you heard a difference when putting on larger wire and once you hit 14 it does not get better? I bet he would imply you imagined it since he apparently is unaware of the theile small analysis
But I agree a lot of other wire talk has been poppycock but damping is real....
Personaly I would print out that section I posted on their work with damping and also the picture showing him the actual model then buy him a another burger...
So have you made up your mind now and is this the end of this thread?
Well they use 8 ohm as the standard...SY said:
I dont see any issue with that at all Sy...
Take an amp with 20,000 damping at 8 ohms that is a z of .0004 ohms (sweet)
Then to know what it is at 4 ohms its 4/.0004 = 10,000 etc
I think its more like an impedance rise and an impedance hump at resonance... I dont know what a small speaker is but the 15's rarely have an impedance below about 7 ohms...carlosfm said:
8 ohm resistive load, not a speaker.
Most speakers have big impedance dips in the bass and demand lots of CURRENT from the amp, and a stiff PSU.
There is more than damping factor...
when you put them in an aligned box the whole point is to lower z not raise it in the resonance peak...
It doesnt matter that its a resistive load because damping a quality number
there is more than what you said too
Madmike2 said:
Professor Brady Thurston today told me that all this talk of wires and such is probably poppy **** considering electricity has certain rules it likes to follow. And until someone changes the laws of physics OFC copper in spec millimeter sizes will be the same as some other manufacturers spec Millimeter size. Twists affect properties but you need equipment to measure it. No person since Superman died can detect those frequencies apparently.Also a wire length difference of a foot or so would hard enough to measure in a lab never mind hear anything since electricity travels at near light velocity. Strangely he laughed when i brought up uf and mH. What are you doing reading Ultra Hi Fi or something ? he asked.
Over Bagels and salmon i got an introduction to amplifiers and their related theories. I know what a FET amp is now and SET and Tri . the Bipolar i didnt quite get. Basically he says that it wont matter all that much what i get as long as it has the power to perform for my application. Apparently being the pauper that i am ensures that i will get a mid level amp that will not be better then good and of course will have its own 'sound'. Apparently a 'proper' amplifier has none of those qualities of sound reproduction and perfectly amplifies the source, period. He has never seen one yet. Only in theory. Admittedly he is not an audiophile. And he is now in his late 60's and mean as a cornered cat generally BUT he is a Proffessor Physics so i think i can cut him some slack. Also a standing member of the EESOC. How do i know him ? ( i used to date his daughter )
I think ill go with the known opinion of someone who has none. He didnt even know who Nelson Pass was
No worries Nelson, not that you probably care but i told him you were a GOD in some audio circles. Laughter.
Knew who Linkwitz was though right away. Read somepapers back in the 70 and 80's.
His system ? One of those giant cabinets with a radio and a turntable in it and apparently it still works.
You obviously did not show him the damping model that I posted brought to us by theil small...
It sounds like he is being straight up with you so if you show him that model he will take one look at and agree that damping is real...
Damping is rarely heard by anyone who has not specifically set out to test wire sizing or going active xover then it is really noticed So I would speciulate that he was thinking that he never heard it and never seen any work done in this area so none of this exists... most people just accept that their speakers sound the way they do because that is the way life is and have no idea bigger wire makes a difference and would never think to even examine it for that matter....
Did you ask brady if he had an explanation why you heard a difference when putting on larger wire and once you hit 14 it does not get better? I bet he would imply you imagined it since he apparently is unaware of the theile small analysis
But I agree a lot of other wire talk has been poppycock but damping is real....
Personaly I would print out that section I posted on their work with damping and also the picture showing him the actual model then buy him a another burger...
So have you made up your mind now and is this the end of this thread?
Re: Re: Re: Who wants to throw some bucks for a paper?
then it doesnt count and is nothing more than another wire fad looking for suckers...
Someone said what a biz to get into in an earlier post and listening to most of you guys out here I am starting to think about that seriously...
carlosfm said:
then it doesnt count and is nothing more than another wire fad looking for suckers...
Someone said what a biz to get into in an earlier post and listening to most of you guys out here I am starting to think about that seriously...
wll yeh, again I will attach the model below that shows exactly what it all consists of.... since you know how to calculate driver parameters it should be immediately obvious to you....soongsc said:
slowmotion said:Hi all,
I totally agree that multiway horn-systems are the way to go for realistic
music reproduction. For me it's the only way.
Well I prefer to go the other way: current drive, with horns, drivers and amplifiers designed to work together.
So even if our goals are probably more or less the same,
our methods are different. We don't speak the same language.
cheers
Well actually I speak the language quite well... I just have a different understanding of the situation... and I have been to both places low damping and high damping...
I talked about horns and trans amps and low or no damping earlier... It might be worth your while to read that post carefully to understand what I am about to talk about here...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60895&perpage=10&pagenumber=63
Like I said I have horns and mine are not what most people would expect from a horn... They are smooth as silk highly dynamic, transparent as glass all the way up and down the scale, and very bright with out being nasty about it, and last they are razor sharp, and have a nearly perfect image from the somewhat deeper bass, say 60 to the highest treble, it sounds this way at all volume levels and the difference in sound is very little between 50db and 115db... and i can still think of lots of things I can do to improve on them... finally you can build them for a lousy $2k
Now it really does not matter to me how you like to hear your audio, that is your personal taste and only a fool would agrue against someones personal taste ok... and that is not what I am about to do here ok...
So... can we agree that what I descibed above is approaching lets say really good?
I think so but that is irrelavant... whats important is a proper assessment of what you really want out of your horn...
If you want "all" of what I just said you cannot get it with trans amps... sorry... at least not to the same degree that you can with a highly damped Vs amp... it is somply impoissible to consistantly maintain the rest of those attributes without extreme cone control... dont get me wrong you get very bright with out being nasty and it is soft... many instruments are not soft however...
What you get, is apparent pure tones when in fact they are not... The whole point of reduced damping is to add color and that color is what appeals to you. I have certain colors that appeal to me also since I am forced to pick one as all speakers have one sort of color or another...
When properly eq'd tube/trans amped horns sound bright and soft so I can certainly understand why tube and trans amp people like yourself like the sound... and the terms they use are very good "soft" sounding... is really appropriate description imo...
Its also important to understand that in using a tube/trans amp your speaker not only overshoots at its resonant hump but on all other tones as well... that is what causes that soft sound and makes many horns more listenable but with increased volume as peaks and improperly eq'd pure tones will literally rip your face off when a 10db increase in program comes through... With a trans amp you become almost solely dependant on driver box damping with little or no help from the amp...
Hey I am not "picking" on your speaker here... Just explaining what you hear and the most likely reason you like it... and I am trying to describe the differences between low or no damping and high damping as pertains to horns...
Another thing you will notice is that at low volume levels this is not as apparent as it is at higher volume levels..
It is also important to note that as you go up in volume your bass will get heavier, nonlinearally louder than the rest of the drivers as you go louder and at some point well below 110db generally you will hear fast bass notes (the 30 and 40 cycle part of a drum), go ploughk instead of thwack.... and then quickly turn it back down thinking you over powered it or xmaxed out on the cone... when chances are all that really happened is the amp lost control of it...
You can get that poughk sound or a resonant boing or boom from many speakers other than horns that are not well damped...
My design does not have audible linearity issues with overshoot like a trans amp system does... But then that said we all know there is no holy grail in audio...
So the trade off is that I have to have an eq and the ability to remove the sharp narrow spikes that are sometimes as narrow as 1/60 of an octave and it probably wouldnt hurt your system to have an eq at least you do not have to have an eq if you do not already but this kind of thing is much less apparent on your system than it would be on mine...
So by your standards I am far from a purist and I woudl agree with you because I believe in the brute force use a bigger stick method of pulling a speaker into line with eq's and spike removers as well as dynamic equalization and yes most importantly very high damping, but then when I am done I have linearity only equaled by a live performance and roughly +/- 1 db audio hitting my ears from 28 to 16, I lop off 20k... I super impose the input graph over the rta audio at my ears and it matches nearly identically....
Proper sound processing yeilds awesome results...
Granted sound meters are inherently inaccurate so it may be more than that...
In the end it all comes down to taste... I hope this helps to quantify the differences of highly damped and low damped sound... food for thought and possibly experientation if nothing else...
The way I see it as audio buffs we all owe it to ourselves to hear different designs...
Attachments
carlosfm said:
It's a lost case.
I thought the AES was a half respected institution, but maybe it's just a bunch of morons or just a bunch of US kids...
My opinion?
Yeh 1/2 respected is about correct...
Well maybe 3/4 but then there is that 1/4 that falls under the category of no respect and 99.9% pure copper versus 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% copper comes under that 1/4
soongsc said:
Originally posted by rnrss
I am not sure how you are applying your zobel... but you do not want to add series r if you want your damping to remain high...
Then I wonder whether someone understands what this is saying.
Ok the long version.... I will fill in the blanks for you
I am not sure how you are applying your zobel, in parrallel with the driver? in parrallel with the wire? or both? or exactly what you are trying to accomplish with this?
but regardless of what you mean, do not want to add series r if you want your damping to remain high...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who wants to throw some bucks for a paper?
You gotta be jammin me man!!!!!
For that I will design an amp into the speaker LOL
Suckers born everyday!!!
Stick with 2 cables of big copper per side that is chump change comparatively and for those who are freaking out about possible capacitance just separate the 2 single wires by a foot or more and it will be unmeasuerable... MUCH better then that wonder wire people keep putting up here in links...
Makes me wonder!
Audiophilenoob said:
transparency cables is making a KILLING... you should do it
They have cables past $50,000
You gotta be jammin me man!!!!!
For that I will design an amp into the speaker LOL
Suckers born everyday!!!
Stick with 2 cables of big copper per side that is chump change comparatively and for those who are freaking out about possible capacitance just separate the 2 single wires by a foot or more and it will be unmeasuerable... MUCH better then that wonder wire people keep putting up here in links...
Makes me wonder!
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