It doesn't. However, different cables differently influence the way a speaker interacts with an amplifier, indirectly causing the change in the speaker's distortion.
We can see the effect in the recent measurement results - post #377.
Hello vzaichenko
I admire your work of measurement to highlight certain things and we must respect it.
Now why do some here believe 'hard as iron' that the more expensive a cable is the better?
That it is possible to hear a distortion with values that ordinary people can not hear, why not.
In short, all these parameters, cables, speaker, etc ... the auditory perception of each individual would not be taken into account and what in my opinion would make obsolete all the content of this thread.
It's my humble opinion.
I admire your work of measurement to highlight certain things and we must respect it.
Now why do some here believe 'hard as iron' that the more expensive a cable is the better?
That it is possible to hear a distortion with values that ordinary people can not hear, why not.
In short, all these parameters, cables, speaker, etc ... the auditory perception of each individual would not be taken into account and what in my opinion would make obsolete all the content of this thread.
It's my humble opinion.
Hi Project16,
Here is what I think. In the areas of the spectrum, where there is no problem - according to the post #377 that's everything above 5KHz - we will not hear the difference and then you are right, there's no point for discussion. Even at 1KHz, the difference is small enough for being heard.
However... in the area of 500Hz in my setup (but it may be anywhere below that point in any other speaker) - there is always some problem. The difference in THD between 0.66% and 1% at 500Hz may be heard as certain "coloration". Some setups sound noticeably different with different cables - that's my experience, now I better understand why (or at least I hope so
). Again, they sound different not because the cable produces some distortion - it doesn't - but because it interfaces an amplifier and a speaker in a certain way, leading for the system issues to be either "masked" or highlighted.
We like them to be masked, right?
Cheers,
Valery
Thank you for clarifying this point Valery and I will not contradict because I do not have enough experience but actually with single-digit measurements after zero it must be possible to hear differences and you mention well under what frequency.However... in the area of 500Hz in my setup (but it may be anywhere below that point in any other speaker) - there is always some problem. The difference in THD between 0.66% and 1% at 500Hz may be heard as certain "coloration". Some setups sound noticeably different with different cables - that's my experience, now I better understand why (or at least I hope so
What I wanted to say is that I do not see how some people hear a change because a cable will give different measures with two or three digits after the decimal point and there for me the choice of very expensive cable brings nothing.
Keep up the good work because it is very useful for those who are interested.
Regards 'the "speed" of the bass' that's difficult to define since it does seem to have multiple meanings, and it's going to be harder too when the author uses inverted commas. It's just about on topic due to the effect cable resistance has on damping factor (in one of it's definitions {probably}).
Fast bass is meaningless. Speed=freq.
"Now why do some here believe 'hard as iron' that the more expensive a cable is the better?"
A better question in my mind is "what could there be in a short cable that could cost $XXXX to make?". Surely for most there aren't precious metals in there (vendors would be sure to tell you if so), and the 'engineering' costs, if there were any really at all, couldn't justify that much price. Suggestable as humans minds are, it appears that the price itself is most likely what makes the wire 'sound better', not any characteristic of the cable itself.
A better question in my mind is "what could there be in a short cable that could cost $XXXX to make?". Surely for most there aren't precious metals in there (vendors would be sure to tell you if so), and the 'engineering' costs, if there were any really at all, couldn't justify that much price. Suggestable as humans minds are, it appears that the price itself is most likely what makes the wire 'sound better', not any characteristic of the cable itself.
This is what I meant, that the work frequencies, together with the other electronic parameters, determine an impedance that we call characteristic.
But I understand what you mean, that the term is applied to the transmission lines, and not to a speaker, where it is generally called nominal impedance.
But the frequency also influences the transmission lines, that's what I saw wrong with your comments.
I have translated it :
Page 285,
http://personales.unican.es/perezvr/pdf/CH9ST_Web.pdf
It is defined as characteristic impedance of the line that, together with the constant of
propagation, are designated as secondary parameters of the line and are independent
of the length of it. The characteristic impedance of a line depends on
the permittivity, permeability, frequency and geometry of the line. As seen from (9.15), the characteristic impedance is, in general, complex, that is: ..........
And the exercise ?
Its important to keep in mind the usual customer for premium audio products is non-technical and more focused on aspects that have to do with self image at that level (think jewelry, which has essentially no practical value). That customer looks for things he (usually he) can relate to like finish and materials and then the magical hype reinforcing the feeling that he has something special. In that realm real technical information usually is not rewarded with a sale, which may be why cables with real technical benefits don't exist for long.
Here is a case in point of actively avoiding anything that has a relationship to reality in a cable that people are exchanging hard earned money for: Atmosphere Cables - Synergistic Research
T-lines properities vers speakr cables
Hi there a: If "frequency and geometry" (as mentioned above) are important to speaker cables, should we then use different cable geometry for low and high frequency cables for Biamped speakers? Also, does applying T-line theory to speaker cable geometry, imply a certain cable rap, packing density, makeup of cable's individual wire size, number of wire bundles (not just the curve between towers). ...regadrs, Michael
This is what I meant, that the work frequencies, together with the other electronic parameters, determine an impedance that we call characteristic.
But I understand what you mean, that the term is applied to the transmission lines, and not to a speaker, where it is generally called nominal impedance.
But the frequency also influences the transmission lines, that's what I saw wrong with your comments.
I have translated it
http://personales.unican.es/perezvr/pdf/CH9ST_Web.pdf
It is defined as characteristic impedance of the line that, together with the constant of
propagation, are designated as secondary parameters of the line and are independent
of the length of it. The characteristic impedance of a line depends on
the permittivity, permeability, frequency and geometry of the line. As seen from (9.15), the characteristic impedance is, in general, complex, that is: ..........
And the exercise ?
Hi there a: If "frequency and geometry" (as mentioned above) are important to speaker cables, should we then use different cable geometry for low and high frequency cables for Biamped speakers? Also, does applying T-line theory to speaker cable geometry, imply a certain cable rap, packing density, makeup of cable's individual wire size, number of wire bundles (not just the curve between towers). ...regadrs, Michael
Hello, you have overtaken me .....
First of all, I want to say that if I do not intervene more actively in the debates it is because my English is basic and aided by the Google translator, and therefore many misunderstandings occur. I try to correct, but sometimes it is not enough, I have found that GT sometimes omits the NO (not) and then you can understand absolutely the opposite of what I want to express.
Going to the topic, I summarize my opinion.
All the parameters that are highlighted, in the article of the link that went up, are referred to the transmission lines, not to speaker cables.
Special speaker cables can measure very different between them, but it is very unlikely that we can hear audible differences, that is, listening to music.
And the difference in price between a common cable of electricity (of a suitable thickness according to its extension, I stress this one more time) and one of those that have been posted here as esoteric and almost magical cables, is a monetary disproposito.
It is better to invest that money in a change of acoustic cabinets, or in better cartridge, or in a good DAC, etc.etc.
Now, if your accounts with a bulging bank account, well, everyone spends their money as they please. There will always be time to play changing other elements until you find the holy grail. Money is not a problem in those cases.
Allow me to close with a tremendous OT on the exercise proposed by me, a little in jest and a bit like challenge because the phrase about my confusion hurt me.
I apologize to all of you who already know this to the point of exhaustion, but there are always beginners in electronics, with no experience, they can use them.
Once a teacher told all the students:
Who knows Ohmn's Law, and knows how to apply it, is a good electronic technician. (He was referring to the Ohmn Basic Law, which by the way in its entirety is much more complex than the classic reminder aid triangle - and that any electronic engineer as there are many here and from whom I learn, know in all its complexity - )
Suppose we are reconditioning a vintage audio amplifier, which works perfectly but you know, fashions are fashions, there are people willing to pay to see new components inside their amplifier. And the technicians are there for that, to satisfy our customers, right?
A resistance is unpainted, you can not see any color coding or screen printing, that is, we do not know its value, and you want to replace it and that your client sees that he has put in place a resistance of the new, exotic material , that does not "generate noise like the common ones"
We do not have the circuit. What do we do ? First we measure the tension that falls on it, then the current that passes through it - opening one end of the R and interspersing the milliamperimeter - and then, we apply Ohmn's law and it was a child's play!
In a next post I will upload the sketch and calculations, sorry to the author of the thread, vzaichenko, for this digression.
Its nothing but guessing but below quote and graph from post 377 could be some of the reason why distortion peaks at 500Hz and amplitude response have a such out there.
...P.P.S. Just noticed on the picture - I've mounted the microphone with its back "looking" at the speaker... not catastrophic, but not good - to be corrected next week
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