Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

Status
Not open for further replies.
My experience was that Naim was medium priced but pretty basic build. Owners are fiercly loyal. Musical Fidelity broke essentially every electronics code and managed to market some of the shiftiest gear that I've seen.

I recall AVguide doing an article titled "Is Magico publishing false measurements?" which they pulled down sometime in the past couple years.

With the prevalence of outsourced design and manufacturing today, it seems like quality isn't what it used to be, and this has led to a rise in manufacturers claiming that measurements don't matter. Follow the cash cow.
 
Last edited:
We (wife and I) came prepared, so we retaliated with a bottle of Serbian made plum brandy, sliwovitz (literal translation: plum drink), but strongly advised against opening it up at all at that time, let alone throwing the cork out. :D

That aside, I am not at all sure Naim is a Scottish company, as is say Linn. As a matter of fact, I believe Naim is located somewhere in souther England.

As for Naim's sound, agreed, I also am not impressed, but I do note that they seem to have a very partisan following.

Of all UK audio companies, Armstrong was "my" company, they never failed me. And neither did Boothroyd-Stuart Meridian, either as Lecson, or as Meridian. And of course, there's always dCS, but they are not of this planet, as witnessed by their cosmic prices.
Ah, sliwovitz! I stayed at a university college, we often had short term residents from overseas, academics and such - and one turned up from your region. He had a bottle on hand always, and then he pulled out the "special" home brew version, and winked - this was like throwing a Molotov cocktail into your mouth, took ages for the impact of it to dissipate ... :)

As regards Scotch, I just sampled some Japanese whisky a few days ago - veerrrry impressive: smooth, super smooth, beautiful aftertaste, something you could sit on for hours ...

Can't say much about older Naim, but the new gear is very truthful, if the source is clean then that comes through well - still sensitive to vibration and, obviously, poor parts choice.
 
Member
Joined 2004
Paid Member
I did struggle to go below 0.05% . The load seems to be the problem . I suspect I was measuring distortion of the output and load combined . That is an output impedance exacerbated by the output transformer caused the regenerator to correct what it saw which was a composite . Hence saying a direct coupled bridge at 360 VDC . It is just possible that a composite is no bad thing ? With a motor there is no difficult choice . The vibration is less or it isn't . Voltage and distortion are the key factors if a hysteresis motor . Low distortion allows a higher voltage and sounds better . With belt drive the effects are very subtle . Voltage is the main thing and motor size . I dislike belt drives as no amount of PSU sophistication brings about a big change . This suggests to me a belt is a device for a middle grade turntable . A stiff belt is better . My criticism is most turntables kept faith with the AR turntable . It was a cunning cheap device . It is not a broadcast quality turntable although serviceable as a stand in .

A further piece of evidence . If a steeper motor ( 7.5 deg ) is connected to another motor it's output can be measured into a resistor . It will be a strange looking sine wave of about 10 % THD . A top grade turntable synchronous will be identical . This causes me to speculate that early steppers were just redesigned synchronous . Take them apart and all the pieces look alike .

If a synchronous is driven by a direct coupled PSU the waveform drops to 0.01% if that's where we are . Insert a small resistance , then measure again . With very little resistor help the motor is back at 10 % THD . Logically this must be true as the alternator output should be identical .

With very little trouble I can get a synchronous to run at 10% THD if mains or regenerator . That involves a tiny bit of passive filtering when mains . The question then is how much voltage . Motors can be combined to phase cancel vibration . I don't think I ever saw motors vertically stacked ?

Hysteresis motors are different and will respond better . They are reasonably synchronous which helps . I suspect Paspt might be a hysteresis type . They hate DC .

The transformer was in effect inside the loop. I mesured the current through the motor with a series resistor. That current was compared with the reference from the oscillator. As long as the amp is stable all is happy.

There is no difference between a 4 phase stepper and a synchronous motor except the rating label. The innards are not designed for smoothness but they will lock nice and tight with a voltage on a winding.

The Hysteresis motor induce the poles in the rotor and will be smoother, but not ideal or close. The vendor for the outer rotor motor had a variat tthat was a hall effect motor. it worked pretty well. He complained to me that he had to use switching hall sensors to work with the electronics. Using linear sensors could make for a very smooth motor with the right electronics.

Some brush type DC motors are really smooth. They would definitely need a servo to maintain speed but that's trivial today.

The motor for the Caliburn table is reputed to cost upwards of $5K. Where I really am baffled is how an enterprise can pay its bills with stuff like that. You can't make enough motors to make a profit if its so expensive that almost no one can justify its price in a project. And surviving on the R&D budgets of enterprises or governments is chancy at best today.
 
More of the New ML .....
 

Attachments

  • ricky3.jpg
    ricky3.jpg
    164 KB · Views: 158
??? Could you please elaborate a bit? Why is that "a Scottish" thing?


The Scots - among whom I live - are traditionally known as being very careful of money and to seldom buy anything unless absolutely vital to survival....you know - life's essentials like whisky and cigarettes! Less kind people say that they are mean.....especially mean are those who are from Aberdeen.
A modern saying heard only a few days ago regarding the fact that the local town was very short of shoppers that day was "its like Aberdeen on a flag day":D

[For those who don't know, on flag days people collect money for various charities and good causes. On such days the people of Aberdeen stay at home to avoid having to donate money in return for a supporters sticker.];)

Being Irish and living in Scotland for the past 9 years I have found most Scots to be generous, kind and very welcoming. But there are a few - as everywhere else - who are quite mean of spirit and money. I like it here.:):)
 
I find it amusing that archivalists would go to such lengths to capture exactly what was put down by some fairly hopeless original equipment (especially the early days like the late 20's). I had a 78 player, spinning weight governor and all.
It makes sense to me - the "fairly hopeless original equipment" actually does an excellent job of archiving some of the crucial qualities of the original event - not the obvious, impressive things like frequency response and speed constancy - but much of the low level detail is there, waiting to be revealed. This makes the quality of the playback mechanism even more crucial, the latter must never get in the way, add anything into the mix.

Some of the hideous damage done by rough and ready "noise removal" software, etc, is so obvious - extensive amounts of the fine detail in the recording is stripped away, they turn into cardboard cutouts, with no real depth to them. Very sophisticated algorithms should be able to do so much better, so long as the originals are not lost, for future efforts to work on.
 
Musical Fidelity were the masters of running capacitors ABOVE rated voltage


UK is the last place in the world to do this as 246V is typical at my home . Garrard treated 240 V as 270 V for testing purposes .

I have to disagree about Naim build quality . In the Julian Vereker era it was quite beautiful . Sometimes it would have sounded better if the look had been worst . That is the 0 V bus-bar was neat at the expense of ideal function .

I would suggest the era of Naim I speak of the layout was exactly like lab equipment . Hi fi has drifted towards jewelry . To be honest when I see that it just turns me off . What I have seen of military equipment be it US , UK or Soviet looks like Naim . Sugden also . Quad a little bit more domestic , a washing machine look . Japan always looks like TV's to me . Hafler DH 200 ( ? ) looked more Quad than Naim .

To repair a Naim amp was pure joy . It was designed to make it easy . Naim often said " Dealers who remember one Naim amp failing seldom remember two " . I have to say if anyone says differently I have to say I don't believe it . After the death of JV I haven't a clue .
 
The Scots - among whom I live - are traditionally known as being very careful of money and to seldom buy anything unless absolutely vital to survival....you know - life's essentials like whisky and cigarettes! Less kind people say that they are mean.....especially mean are those who are from Aberdeen.
A modern saying heard only a few days ago regarding the fact that the local town was very short of shoppers that day was "its like Aberdeen on a flag day":D

[For those who don't know, on flag days people collect money for various charities and good causes. On such days the people of Aberdeen stay at home to avoid having to donate money in return for a supporters sticker.];)

Being Irish and living in Scotland for the past 9 years I have found most Scots to be generous, kind and very welcoming. But there are a few - as everywhere else - who are quite mean of spirit and money. I like it here.:):)

I met a Scottish farmer who explained how this comes about . Harvest is delayed by 2 months compared with the south of England . 2 years in 7 the harvest is lost . One saves for those years . Jacob in the Bible also if I remember planned for the same .
 
Member
Joined 2004
Paid Member
Usually, by a injection of fresh cash now and then.
Mr Payes can afford an expensive sideshow.
I'm not concerned about Continuum, its the motor vendor. The world industrial market for motors that special must be very small. They must have something else that pays the bills but devoting resources to a non-profitable product is hard to justify.
 
In my personal experience the Scots are the most generous people I have met.

Unless you are english of course. In that case they won't give you the time of day.

A taxi driver, an ederly man in his 60ies, asked us where we (wife, son and I) were from in Edinburgh, 2009.

"Serbia," I said, "We're simply foreigners."

"Oh no," he said, "you are visitiors. The English are the foreigners."

Jerked me a bit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.