Strange thing is I am told it is respected . There are many customers in Asia who buy equipment like this . There is an equally respected device from PS Audio . If I am right developed by Northrop ( Men on the Moon company ) . When asking the question people say that the expensive one is better . It is a simple brute force re-generator . The PS uses a commutator technical to replace the wave tops .This by my calculation needs only to be the top 7% . If I am correct PS is 20 % . It is a bit of a mystery to me why the PS should be considered worse . Surly it should be better as it can deliver high current . My conjecture is maybe that the PS is neither high grade passive filter nor higher grade re-generator . I have heard the PS and thought it rather good . I was somewhat surprised to be told it was inferior .
I had to advise on a device like this , I have built many for turntables . I said it should cost no more than $1000 which was still a high price to me .
http://www.psaudio.com/products/p10-power-plant/
Having read the spec sheet it says 100 % regenerated ( ?? ) . I suppose class D if so ? If not it would push out > 1000 watts as heat . Doubtful when it has no cooling fan .
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The PS power plant is a large power amp. Thats why they are so power limited. Its all linear. No Northrup technolgy. Maybe some from Elgar, which used transformers and is far more robust. The others use variations on actively boosting a cutting on the sine wave.
Pure voltage sine waves are misleading since they mean really distorted current waveforms with big magnetic fields. I would trade for a lower distortion current waveform with the same peak voltage as the sine wave anytime.
Pure voltage sine waves are misleading since they mean really distorted current waveforms with big magnetic fields. I would trade for a lower distortion current waveform with the same peak voltage as the sine wave anytime.
Might also want to take a look at each A-V equipment and what each puts out onto the ac line.
The Source of the Problem: I have found and shown here before.... just about everything electronic plugged into the ac line puts out a spectrum of noise freqs onto the ac power lines.
And very little from outside the homes comes in on the ac lines. It is mostly from within the home.
-RNMarsh
[stumbling around in S.E.Asia]
Did you know the Chinese government gets pretty excited when you fly into the middle of their country (XIAN) without a visa etc and not in a group etc....? And just start wandering around? I got a private tour via the chief of police's daughter. Now there's a story for a new movie!
On everything throwing junk in to the mains - I for one completely agree. Which is why my filter is not one, but separate filters for each and every recetacle. Since the modules are totally symmterical, the filter equally in both directions and do not require ground for full operation. Thus, each device is protected from both the mains and its neighboring devices. For anything to hit any one of them next to any other, that disturbance would have to pass through two series connected filter modules.
On things mostly originating in one's home, that's a defnite no. Some variables here, as to where you live (suburbs have less homes as sources of interferece on the same line compared to high rise apartments in the heart of a city), how near or far you happen to be to your nearest power transformer station, in what condition is that power station, is there any industry near by, etc.
You are partly right in the sense that many underestimate their homes as sources of trouble - every time your air con, or dish washer, or vacuum cleaner come on line, you get a nasty spike. In my experience, the two worst polluters at home are the hair dryer (usually built around the worst possilke electric motor, brushes wear out in no time and start sparking, etc) and the PC (hard to believe how they make their PSUs these days, but - price is king).
Suggested test - attach an oscilloscope to your usual audio receptacle. Set for wide bandwidth, at least 100 kHz, preferably more, set to register large spikes. Then have somebody switch on the hair dryer in the bathroom and feast your eyes on line junk. Repeat the same without and then with a PC attached to where it usually is. Admittedly, notebook PC PSUs are usually of better quality than standard PC case PSUs.
Very good point about the current waveform .
This is the Northrop link . Perhaps the past ?
http://www.musicdirect.com/documents/pdf/BPSPPP_RELIABLE.pdf
http://www.google.com/patents/US7259705
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What the patent describes is very close to how the Elgar power conditioner worked, with a big amp used to stabilize and fill in the difference between the AC and the ideal AC. I have another box from the '70s made by Electronic Research Associates that works the same. There will be very little new in power conditioning at this stage.
It always helps sales to point to a large entity and claim connections. When you dig the connections usually turn out to be tangential at best.
It always helps sales to point to a large entity and claim connections. When you dig the connections usually turn out to be tangential at best.
I have feeling they have moved away from it . However as it is written by the advertising dept one wonders . The unusual thing is that 100 % regeneration suggests class D if 1500 watts .
Thank you for mentioning Elgar . It seems a bit rough to get a patent on a previous design ? Or are they linked ?
The synchronization between mains and regenerated is a obvious thing which Mr Farnsworth would have understood in 1935 ? Can a patent exist for something known that long ago ? Fourier knew of it in 1820 .
Nigel
Thank you for mentioning Elgar . It seems a bit rough to get a patent on a previous design ? Or are they linked ?
The synchronization between mains and regenerated is a obvious thing which Mr Farnsworth would have understood in 1935 ? Can a patent exist for something known that long ago ? Fourier knew of it in 1820 .
Nigel
The isolation filters you describe are exactly what Monster Products has been selling for a decade.
you are completely wrong about where the emi/rfi noise comes from. You need to look at the products aaffect on the ac line coupled to a network analyzer as I have done.
THx-RNMarsh
I usually do that by inserting a small resistor somewhere to see what is in the flow so to speak . My modern scope is opto isolated so can easily do that .
I measured a standard mains transformer and found it good to pass 1 MHz . With no modification it would make an OK tube output stage ( not a great one ) . People mistake the word isolation . It means keeping the engineer isolated when working on TV's . What isolation transformers can do is simplify a conventional filter by creating a balanced supply with a nicer version of ground . Myself I doubt they are the answer .
If you apply known knowledge to a new problem in a non-obvious way (this is the hardest part for the law) you can get a patent. Add to that the 2 hours the patent examiner has to review your patent and you may get some pretty marginal patents.
Since defending/attacking a patent is very expensive the whole issue really matters little for very small players. The big guys lay their patent portfolio on the table, argue for a while, and then the guy with the smaller pile pays the guy with the larger pile some cash, the lawyers take home a lot of cash and life goes on.
The patent trolls (lawyers) changed this by creating entities with no assets to go and defend patents of questionable value. Usually its cheaper to pay the extortionists than fight. And since they have nothing to lose they can go after anyone. The usual constraint is that damages from a false patent fight blow back to the attacker, but with no assets there is nothing to lose. More highwaymen on the road to prosperity.
No I am not referring to isolation transformers... i mean isolation filters.... just as you describe you use.... I call them isolation filters -- one filter per product. Mostly to keep each products emi/rfi out of other products.
I agree on the power transformer BW.... I measured a Dynaco power transformer about 30 years ago to have >500KHz BW.
THx-RNMarsh
I agree on the power transformer BW.... I measured a Dynaco power transformer about 30 years ago to have >500KHz BW.
THx-RNMarsh
Thanks for that . Thought we should see the product you mentioned ( ? )
Elgar Ultra Precision AC Line Conditioner Power Supply 3006B Uplc 3000 VA | eBay
Elgar Ultra Precision AC Line Conditioner Power Supply 3006B Uplc 3000 VA | eBay
To expand on Demians comment ---- Like any balanced circuit.... it is only balanced to the extent that the phases are balanced. Unequal load Z will degrade the balance and thus the rejection. I still have an Equi-Tech balanced transformer somewhere in storage --- in discussing the situation with the creator/inventor... the best you can expect to get in practice is around 30dB rejection. Which is why it wasnt clear cut decision. There are easier and cheaper ways to get that and more.
THx-RNMarsh
On points of history - the grandaddy of my filter was made in 1974. It had evolved over time to what it is today. This is the 9th generation. And I have been selling them far and wide for 14 years now.
Do you seriously think I have not looked at how it appears on the 'scope?
Cheers,
DVV
I dont know your filter topology but individual filters per each piece of gear is the way to go for sure. You need to look at the line's frequency componenets with equipment plugged in using a network analyzer.... as I said I do... not just a scope as you do. That way you can see which freq need atten and from which connected equipment.
Do you have any data to show re filters and noise eminating from the connected equipment???
THx-RNMarsh
How about the Naim Audio approach to use very thick mains wire ( 6mm ) via dedicated radials to the consumer unit ? Surely shunting the problem solves it ? The mains to my house is via a 400 amp ring main . It must have very low impedance . The distribution transformer about 100 metre away . It's size > 500 KVA ( in UK 1000 KVA is now typical for housing estates ) .
The mains typically is a flat top sine wave . This is not caused by loading as people imagine . It is a crude and effective regulation principle of saturating the transformer . I measured a diesel generator of 100 KVA used to feed just a few streets when changing switch gear . It was the same and marginally worse .
My first regenerator was built to drive a Garrard 301/401 . It was about 1990 . To my surprise it required something much larger than it's rating plate suggested . In the end I used a 150 watt design reduced to 45 watts . I built what I had read about in the 1972 Hi Fi News for the Thorens TD 125 . The reviewer had gone one steep beyond the true workings and was playing a good hunch as to how it was done . What he mistook was that the motor was 115 V as in TD150 . More like 6V at a good guess ( op amp via simple class B outputs using bulb type Wien bridge ) .
For what it is worth 80VA is as far as I would go with this idea . If asking the Garrard needs this device as vibration is directly coupled to the stylus , the motor is a rotating transformer with less than ideal rigidity . The motor is almost silent when nicely driven . It is a very big difference . More mysterious is that the output stage is part of the sound . All of my Mk1 designs blew up after a year or so . These used an ILP 60 watt module . ILP were very helpful and were honest enough to say music only and not 60 watts continuous . I used a variation of the Hitachi MOS FET design to replace it . This completely cured the problem . On paper the outputs were as near identical as is possible to get . Feedback from customers was of a softer and nicer sound . In fact the sound one would get as amplifiers . To be clear the ILP was not unstable . It was a potted design and eventually boiled it's capacitors dry . Unhappy to accept this I built my own design of bipolar amp ( Re 0R33 ) . To my surprise it sounded brighter and to my ears maybe better . I have no explanation for this and treat it as a nice mystery . The soft sound I associate with FET's was still there . I have to question if that soft sound is RON . Could be a FET behaves differently with a motor load be it motor or speaker . Just to be clear the distortion seen was 90% the transformer when driving the motor . Any trends were minimally different .
Adding feedback from the output transformer of a re-generator is more difficult than people would think . If you do look at the trends . Keep it well ordered . The load will change things . The 0.2% of the Elgar is a very good target .
One thing I never tried was to increase the mains voltage so as to build a bridged direct coupled supply . It wouldn't need to go up much . Any candidates for P type transistor or FET's ? An all NPN op amp I saw might be the answer . An op amp at 360 VDC .
The mains typically is a flat top sine wave . This is not caused by loading as people imagine . It is a crude and effective regulation principle of saturating the transformer . I measured a diesel generator of 100 KVA used to feed just a few streets when changing switch gear . It was the same and marginally worse .
My first regenerator was built to drive a Garrard 301/401 . It was about 1990 . To my surprise it required something much larger than it's rating plate suggested . In the end I used a 150 watt design reduced to 45 watts . I built what I had read about in the 1972 Hi Fi News for the Thorens TD 125 . The reviewer had gone one steep beyond the true workings and was playing a good hunch as to how it was done . What he mistook was that the motor was 115 V as in TD150 . More like 6V at a good guess ( op amp via simple class B outputs using bulb type Wien bridge ) .
For what it is worth 80VA is as far as I would go with this idea . If asking the Garrard needs this device as vibration is directly coupled to the stylus , the motor is a rotating transformer with less than ideal rigidity . The motor is almost silent when nicely driven . It is a very big difference . More mysterious is that the output stage is part of the sound . All of my Mk1 designs blew up after a year or so . These used an ILP 60 watt module . ILP were very helpful and were honest enough to say music only and not 60 watts continuous . I used a variation of the Hitachi MOS FET design to replace it . This completely cured the problem . On paper the outputs were as near identical as is possible to get . Feedback from customers was of a softer and nicer sound . In fact the sound one would get as amplifiers . To be clear the ILP was not unstable . It was a potted design and eventually boiled it's capacitors dry . Unhappy to accept this I built my own design of bipolar amp ( Re 0R33 ) . To my surprise it sounded brighter and to my ears maybe better . I have no explanation for this and treat it as a nice mystery . The soft sound I associate with FET's was still there . I have to question if that soft sound is RON . Could be a FET behaves differently with a motor load be it motor or speaker . Just to be clear the distortion seen was 90% the transformer when driving the motor . Any trends were minimally different .
Adding feedback from the output transformer of a re-generator is more difficult than people would think . If you do look at the trends . Keep it well ordered . The load will change things . The 0.2% of the Elgar is a very good target .
One thing I never tried was to increase the mains voltage so as to build a bridged direct coupled supply . It wouldn't need to go up much . Any candidates for P type transistor or FET's ? An all NPN op amp I saw might be the answer . An op amp at 360 VDC .
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