1audio is right, Wayne.
However, he did say that even after just 100 hours of use, they will SHOW signs of wear and tear, but he did not say they should immediately be replaced. They simply start to deviate from factory state.
Knowing this, in my heyday LP days, I used a tape deck to record music off the LPs, so listening involved using tapes, which were easily replaceable. And those were big reels, even if the speed was 7.5 ips (19 cm/s). That way, I had all the music I wanted, while keeping LPs and styli in prime condition. My last fling with tape was buying a Sony TC-K 808 ES 3 head, 3 motor cassette deck in December 1993, which I still have and will keep. Finding new cassettes is becoming a chore, though, and will get worse until analog recording also makes a comeback.
And while I generally agree with you that overall, digital recording tags in music quality behing the analog stuff (home gear, I mean), I must say I am pleasantly surprised at how far even reasonably priced CD players have come. Last Monday, I spent €399 (app.US$ 525) on a NAD C 565BEE CD player, and I must admit, it did surprise me in terms of sound quality - WAY better than I expected, clean and clear, not a trace of harshness, effectively better sounding than my old Yamaha CDX 993 from 2001 which it replaces. The paradox is even greater for me, as I have always thought of NAD as just another "me too" company, and since it used Burr-Brown OPA2314 op amps, the sound of which I positively hate. Obviously, who knows - knows, no iron clad rules in electronics except for Ohm's Law.
As for stylus replacement, I solved the problem by buying a manually operated counter to roughly keep track of my stylus use. I changed them after approximately 300 played LPs, or roughly once a year. 2 mintes' work.
However, he did say that even after just 100 hours of use, they will SHOW signs of wear and tear, but he did not say they should immediately be replaced. They simply start to deviate from factory state.
Knowing this, in my heyday LP days, I used a tape deck to record music off the LPs, so listening involved using tapes, which were easily replaceable. And those were big reels, even if the speed was 7.5 ips (19 cm/s). That way, I had all the music I wanted, while keeping LPs and styli in prime condition. My last fling with tape was buying a Sony TC-K 808 ES 3 head, 3 motor cassette deck in December 1993, which I still have and will keep. Finding new cassettes is becoming a chore, though, and will get worse until analog recording also makes a comeback.
And while I generally agree with you that overall, digital recording tags in music quality behing the analog stuff (home gear, I mean), I must say I am pleasantly surprised at how far even reasonably priced CD players have come. Last Monday, I spent €399 (app.US$ 525) on a NAD C 565BEE CD player, and I must admit, it did surprise me in terms of sound quality - WAY better than I expected, clean and clear, not a trace of harshness, effectively better sounding than my old Yamaha CDX 993 from 2001 which it replaces. The paradox is even greater for me, as I have always thought of NAD as just another "me too" company, and since it used Burr-Brown OPA2314 op amps, the sound of which I positively hate. Obviously, who knows - knows, no iron clad rules in electronics except for Ohm's Law.
As for stylus replacement, I solved the problem by buying a manually operated counter to roughly keep track of my stylus use. I changed them after approximately 300 played LPs, or roughly once a year. 2 mintes' work.
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Interesting ,
I have that and more on a few of my cartridges without noticeable degradation of any kind, i know of no one replacing their stylus with such limited use....
+ 1
Cheers,
A
I can give an explanation . The nearest thing to diamond in dust is granite from the roads . Railroads often cause iron particles that can jam the coils .
The real problem is temperature . It is much higher than many would imagine . The diamond is a reasonable heat conductor so it never gets obviously high . In fact Denon argue that too low a stylus down force causes the vinyl to stay too cold . That can damage it . That is going at 1 g to say you did when 1.7 g was recommended . 1.7 g optimum for many elliptical , 2.2 g for a 0.7 sphericals .
The problem is the oil used as a release agent in pressing bakes on the stylus . Only a fine sandpaper will remove it ( 3M green on plastic backing , finer than any typical type ) . Even then it will not remove the sidewall deposit .
Cleaning machines like Monks and Loricraft ( my old company ) can do a good job to remove the oil . The records do sound slightly nosier when doing it . This changes with a little playing ( burnished by the stylus ) . From the word go the records sound more open . The noise is the reality of the surface imperfections ( sounds like Velcro when pressed too cold ) . Oil fills the gaps a little and does what oil does . There are also electrostatic effects which wet cleaning can improve ( or make worse !!! ) .
Most 1950/60/70 records had a smoking habit . The electrostatic field pulls the cigarette vapour down . Again worth cleaning . Hard to say which is the bigger problem .
Often PU's need a stylus change because the suspension has gone . I had a Supex 900 re-tipped only to find this out . Also had the same company ( Expert of Surrey UK ) do a new Linn Asaka with a cantilever also ( customer broke it ) . It was out of this world good . I joked we should brake all of them . Expert thought it would be nearly as good as original . I would say 100 % better , better than the Linn Karma . That stylus used on the A+ R P77 where I guess one only got a hint . Like fitting Le Mans tyres to the family run around .
The real problem is temperature . It is much higher than many would imagine . The diamond is a reasonable heat conductor so it never gets obviously high . In fact Denon argue that too low a stylus down force causes the vinyl to stay too cold . That can damage it . That is going at 1 g to say you did when 1.7 g was recommended . 1.7 g optimum for many elliptical , 2.2 g for a 0.7 sphericals .
The problem is the oil used as a release agent in pressing bakes on the stylus . Only a fine sandpaper will remove it ( 3M green on plastic backing , finer than any typical type ) . Even then it will not remove the sidewall deposit .
Cleaning machines like Monks and Loricraft ( my old company ) can do a good job to remove the oil . The records do sound slightly nosier when doing it . This changes with a little playing ( burnished by the stylus ) . From the word go the records sound more open . The noise is the reality of the surface imperfections ( sounds like Velcro when pressed too cold ) . Oil fills the gaps a little and does what oil does . There are also electrostatic effects which wet cleaning can improve ( or make worse !!! ) .
Most 1950/60/70 records had a smoking habit . The electrostatic field pulls the cigarette vapour down . Again worth cleaning . Hard to say which is the bigger problem .
Often PU's need a stylus change because the suspension has gone . I had a Supex 900 re-tipped only to find this out . Also had the same company ( Expert of Surrey UK ) do a new Linn Asaka with a cantilever also ( customer broke it ) . It was out of this world good . I joked we should brake all of them . Expert thought it would be nearly as good as original . I would say 100 % better , better than the Linn Karma . That stylus used on the A+ R P77 where I guess one only got a hint . Like fitting Le Mans tyres to the family run around .
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Interesting , I have never worn out an LP or a stylus, i cant imagine what kind of VTF is needed and the many repeated playing to do so ...
How many times can you play one LP to wear it out ......
Depends on the stylus profile.
Worst case scenario is the original Van den Huul profile which is very close to the cutter profile. You get about ten goes on a record before it has visible (under the microscope) and audible degradation.
Adjusting VTA to much less than a few from optimum is meaningless as +-20% is the standard of 'precision' to which cutting heads are adjusted.
Two years ago Joachim Gerhard called me, he wanted to come by to show off his new phono pre. After I confessed I didn't have a record player, he said: no matter, I bring one as well!
So he did, we played some nice records, and then he proceeded to explain to me that 'record playing is a man thing!' 'You have to clean the LP, the stylus tip, you have to know how many LPs you have already played so you buy a good new stylus in good time, you have to adjust your turntable for weight, skating and make it level, and so forth. And LPs actually wear out, no matter how expensive they may have been.'
I realised he was absolutely right and I have been buying records again and playing them and enjoying the routine. So it goes.
Jan
As I understand it, vinyl/phono mastering is subject to limitations, like maximum velocity limits, and monoing of low bass, and stereo separation.
Has anybody tried processing modern digital audio recordings with proper cutting lathe signal processing to see how it sounds.
Perhaps the vinyl/digital divide then reduces.
Dan.
Has anybody tried processing modern digital audio recordings with proper cutting lathe signal processing to see how it sounds.
Perhaps the vinyl/digital divide then reduces.
Dan.
It is surprising how cutting sounds considering what a mess of compromises it is . At 78 RPM micro groove it can be more identical than identical twins . All the more surprising in that the playback is usually a middle grade Shure and SME 12 inch . Neither of which are audiofool must haves . The CD copy played alongside ( from old analogue ) was like a tribute band . The guy I said that to was rather hurt as it was his best effort and a simultaneous release . Often people buy both .
I am totally happy with most digital . Some because it claims little and others because I can't tell it is . The exception is most CD . It must be the drive more than the process I think . No physical contact might be what sold it . I think it also condemned it to being mid fi ?
If you take Donald Fagen Night Fly . That is 3 M digital ( Not Sony PCMF 1 ) . It has early digital timbre . It sounds great on Vinyl .
Paul Stwart tells me that JVC had Nicam professional recorders for sound ( digital ) . How I would have loved to try that . Paul and I though 16 bit Nicam would have been something ( 13 + 3 bits ) . Paul helped set up Mobile Fidelity by making the suggestion to JVC Japan that they did not close the facility . It was a failed CD4 quadrophonic process . cutting half speed to exceed 40 kHz . Paul tells me that he tried JVC's tape version . Whilst listening a lady offered him a drink . When he looked around she wasn't there behind him . Point is he felt the pressure wave like it was someone there . An odd experience which Dolby doesn't do . In my local cinema Dolby 5.1 is a joke .
I am totally happy with most digital . Some because it claims little and others because I can't tell it is . The exception is most CD . It must be the drive more than the process I think . No physical contact might be what sold it . I think it also condemned it to being mid fi ?
If you take Donald Fagen Night Fly . That is 3 M digital ( Not Sony PCMF 1 ) . It has early digital timbre . It sounds great on Vinyl .
Paul Stwart tells me that JVC had Nicam professional recorders for sound ( digital ) . How I would have loved to try that . Paul and I though 16 bit Nicam would have been something ( 13 + 3 bits ) . Paul helped set up Mobile Fidelity by making the suggestion to JVC Japan that they did not close the facility . It was a failed CD4 quadrophonic process . cutting half speed to exceed 40 kHz . Paul tells me that he tried JVC's tape version . Whilst listening a lady offered him a drink . When he looked around she wasn't there behind him . Point is he felt the pressure wave like it was someone there . An odd experience which Dolby doesn't do . In my local cinema Dolby 5.1 is a joke .
Interesting ,
I have that and more on a few of my cartridges without noticeable degradation of any kind, as a matter of fact it takes 30 hrs for the cartridge to break in, at around this time vtf/ vta has to be readjusted due to change in compliance , et al, this is also when the setup is at its sonic best ... A hundred hrs is achieved easily in 4-6 months , i know of no one replacing their stylus with such limited use....
Well, now you do.
Some people are cautious. In a sense, I have to be, as I own a few LPs which do not exist in any catalog known to me. For example, an edition by MGM of The Animals from 1971 (or '72) - I purchased it in a Boots (drug store) in London, while waiting for my girl friend to do her shopping. A few friends tried to find it, but no luck anywhere, it simply isn't there.
Meaning, this and a few other LPs are effectively irreplaceable. I prefer to change cartridge tips rather than risk those LPs. Sure, I know they are diamonds, but I also know the tip is measured in microns ( 1 micron = 0.0000281 inch). No matter how hard the material, one mistake and it's gone, then play an LP with the damaged tip and you can kiss the groove goodbye.
You are changing approx. every 135 hrs of use, i can say your setup may need to be adjusted better than that , too many people track too lightly, i would strongly recommend a Test and setup LP, to test your TT, plus I'm using MC no replacement stylus, the cartridge has to be sent out to be re-tipped usually at 250-300 hrs ...
This is true, the max VTF suggested is the best weight to start with, very rarely not to add more , best material to clean the stylus gunk off is magic sponge , i clean the stylus every 10 hrs and only play records washed and vacuumed.
This works best for me ,
Mr. Clean Magic Eraser S-14765 - Uline
just needle drop on it 5-10 times and you are good to go ..
@jan
So he told you exactly the same thing as I did, or I told you the same thing he did with no knowledge that he told you so.
But "a man thing""? Let's not get carried away here, or soon that will become that owning a TT is a macho thing. It's not.
But Jan, it's not only owning the gear you are happy with, I think there's much more to it. In those days (70ies) there was no Internet, no on line purchasing, you had to go to shops to buy LPs. Some catalogs were there, to be sure, you could also recieve them by mail, but that was somehow not the real deal.
Then you'd take it home, all excited, and put it on, then sit back and listen to it.
I'm not going to say there's no excitement when my order from Amazon.com arrives, but it's not much of a thrill compared to the LPs of old. Sure, I was like 22 then and I'm 60 today, but today it's so easy, and it's so impersonal. The hunt is missing, it's more of a simple routine today.
On occasion, thing get better. For example, I couldn't locate the CDs by the group Gregorian (international, originates from Britain, but has members from Germany as well). They did the background for Enigma's masterpiece 1991 CD. In the end, a countryman of yours located them, bought them and sent them over, completely refusing to even discuss reimbursement. Although I had helped him out before that, I still owe him. But such drama is very rare these days, which is a pity.
Or, a friend from Minnesota surprised me one day by buying and sending over a CD, the first from a group I had never heard of before, just saying he thinks I'll like it. He was oh so right. Blue Man first album. If you ever want to test your system, get this one - on song No.8, one guy strikes running a drum with a diameter of 7 feet (2 meters). If your kidnies move, you have a good system, but with the vast majority of tube audio it will probably sound a little washed out. It simply requires tremendous energies to sound right.
So he told you exactly the same thing as I did, or I told you the same thing he did with no knowledge that he told you so.
But "a man thing""? Let's not get carried away here, or soon that will become that owning a TT is a macho thing. It's not.
But Jan, it's not only owning the gear you are happy with, I think there's much more to it. In those days (70ies) there was no Internet, no on line purchasing, you had to go to shops to buy LPs. Some catalogs were there, to be sure, you could also recieve them by mail, but that was somehow not the real deal.
Then you'd take it home, all excited, and put it on, then sit back and listen to it.
I'm not going to say there's no excitement when my order from Amazon.com arrives, but it's not much of a thrill compared to the LPs of old. Sure, I was like 22 then and I'm 60 today, but today it's so easy, and it's so impersonal. The hunt is missing, it's more of a simple routine today.
On occasion, thing get better. For example, I couldn't locate the CDs by the group Gregorian (international, originates from Britain, but has members from Germany as well). They did the background for Enigma's masterpiece 1991 CD. In the end, a countryman of yours located them, bought them and sent them over, completely refusing to even discuss reimbursement. Although I had helped him out before that, I still owe him. But such drama is very rare these days, which is a pity.
Or, a friend from Minnesota surprised me one day by buying and sending over a CD, the first from a group I had never heard of before, just saying he thinks I'll like it. He was oh so right. Blue Man first album. If you ever want to test your system, get this one - on song No.8, one guy strikes running a drum with a diameter of 7 feet (2 meters). If your kidnies move, you have a good system, but with the vast majority of tube audio it will probably sound a little washed out. It simply requires tremendous energies to sound right.
There are digital recorded LP's, i have no issues with them, quite possibly the best of both ....
@DVV,
I recently recieved a few Symphony LPs done by USSR broadcast (circa 1966), avg sonics, disappointed, I was expecting more ....
The paradox is that the Russians had some incredibly good audio devices, but despite copying down Studer, MCA, etc, they never managed to produce microphones which were any better than average home fare.
Their master tapes can sound good, but their pressing was atrocious and their vinyl was the worst I had ever seen.
There are digital recorded LP's, i have no issues with them, quite possibly the best of both ....
Digital recording has the benefit of almost eliminating tape hiss. If this is carried over to the LP pressing, chances are you hear more because you hear less tape hiss.
@DVV,
I recently recieved a few Symphony LPs done by USSR broadcast (circa 1966), avg sonics, disappointed, I was expecting more ....
Their records were always horrible. I do not know if you are aware of the fact that most contemporary vinyl records are pressed here in Czech Republic, GZ Media
Vinyl | GZ Media
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/19/entertainment-us-vinyl-czech-idUSBRE97I0NE20130819
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Currently , Yes, In 1966..? ahh well , into the library it goes .....
anyway thought it was Germany ....
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20131216-breaking-records-german-vinyl
anyway thought it was Germany ....
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20131216-breaking-records-german-vinyl
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Would love to find a CD of this concert , love this version
Eric Clapton - I Shot the Sheriff - Hyde Park (Live) - YouTube
anyone have ...?
Eric Clapton - I Shot the Sheriff - Hyde Park (Live) - YouTube
anyone have ...?
In my continuing basic education understanding amplifier design, I have a question to toss out there. Why are our modern speakers so low impedance? 6 or even 4 Ohms. It is my understanding, and confirmed in my SPICE testing, that amplifiers would much prefer higher impedance. I remember my old Knight tube amp had transformer taps for 4, 8 and 16 Ohms. I can only summarize that older speakers were higher in impedance. Is it some legacy that early transistor amps could not produce high voltages? Something basic in motor design? Is it just that we rely on the rising impedance of tweeters to keep the distortion in check?
I need to post a schematic. As I have marched through understanding about every schematic I find, my "best practice", as in what should be more than good enough but any given stage is not as perfect as could be done, keeps coming back to the same basic design, not unlike the Mobile Fidelity MX50. Not exactly, but close. There is nothing new or unconventional. I am no where naive enough to think I understand more than the very basics. I guess I have to build it. It has no protection features other than output diodes. That is a step beyond me.
I need to post a schematic. As I have marched through understanding about every schematic I find, my "best practice", as in what should be more than good enough but any given stage is not as perfect as could be done, keeps coming back to the same basic design, not unlike the Mobile Fidelity MX50. Not exactly, but close. There is nothing new or unconventional. I am no where naive enough to think I understand more than the very basics. I guess I have to build it. It has no protection features other than output diodes. That is a step beyond me.
Higher Z dynamic voice coil motors require more turns of smaller wire - at some point the required electrical insulation on the strands becomes a noticible fraction of the coil cross section
in addition to the worse fill factor the added layers of electrical insulation and adhesive hurt thermal performance
"best" would be a single turn solid conductor filling the magnet gap - practical lead-in/out issues give us 1 or 2 layer coils with flattened wire for good fill factor and thermal conductivity
http://www.onesystems.com/pdf/education/Inside_Only_Voice_Coils.pdf has some drawings - only skimmed the text so I can't endorse it fully
in addition to the worse fill factor the added layers of electrical insulation and adhesive hurt thermal performance
"best" would be a single turn solid conductor filling the magnet gap - practical lead-in/out issues give us 1 or 2 layer coils with flattened wire for good fill factor and thermal conductivity
http://www.onesystems.com/pdf/education/Inside_Only_Voice_Coils.pdf has some drawings - only skimmed the text so I can't endorse it fully
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