Jamie the update is very pleasing to be informed off.
With this New Condition of having a Lubrication of choice most likely to be contained indefinitely, there is a very good option on creating a Hydrodynamic Interface at the Spindle/Bush as the fill level can be created to ensure the Bush is submerged in Oil.
If the ideal viscosity of oil can be discovered (the Silicone Oil as previously referred to has numerous viscosities easily acquirable) then a volume of Oil used can be lesser as it will contain itself within the Spindle Bush Interface. The trials required to discover this condition may prove to be long drawn out and working out if the Wedge Effect or Boundary Lubrication is manifesting.
With the Torlon Bush and Silicone Oil used the reassurance of Oil being contained seems to be the route, as the fill can be controlled to a chosen level and this is where the felt pad as shown on my rough sketch of the bearing housing might prove useful. If a Boundary Effect does develop it should not be totally detrimental as the Torlon is ideal for when a condition of Boundary Effect is to be engineered and designed to be overcome.
If a play in the Spindle is detected when it is sure the fill is to the correct level, then maybe the Oil Viscosity can be increased to generate increased oil pressure at the load area. When this is absolutely correct the Oil at the Spindle / Bush Interface should freely rotate with the Spindle Rotation.
I have been seeking an update on the progress of the Bushes and have yet to make a contact, maybe a Holiday is being taken ?
Do Note: The engineer making the Bushes is a retired person and has other interests within HiFi, we are on the list of jobs to be carried out.
With this New Condition of having a Lubrication of choice most likely to be contained indefinitely, there is a very good option on creating a Hydrodynamic Interface at the Spindle/Bush as the fill level can be created to ensure the Bush is submerged in Oil.
If the ideal viscosity of oil can be discovered (the Silicone Oil as previously referred to has numerous viscosities easily acquirable) then a volume of Oil used can be lesser as it will contain itself within the Spindle Bush Interface. The trials required to discover this condition may prove to be long drawn out and working out if the Wedge Effect or Boundary Lubrication is manifesting.
With the Torlon Bush and Silicone Oil used the reassurance of Oil being contained seems to be the route, as the fill can be controlled to a chosen level and this is where the felt pad as shown on my rough sketch of the bearing housing might prove useful. If a Boundary Effect does develop it should not be totally detrimental as the Torlon is ideal for when a condition of Boundary Effect is to be engineered and designed to be overcome.
If a play in the Spindle is detected when it is sure the fill is to the correct level, then maybe the Oil Viscosity can be increased to generate increased oil pressure at the load area. When this is absolutely correct the Oil at the Spindle / Bush Interface should freely rotate with the Spindle Rotation.
I have been seeking an update on the progress of the Bushes and have yet to make a contact, maybe a Holiday is being taken ?
Do Note: The engineer making the Bushes is a retired person and has other interests within HiFi, we are on the list of jobs to be carried out.
now that the inherent oil leak is solved my thoughts move on to stiffening up the black bearing bowl,if you are a fan of albert porters plinths, see here. A PLINTH - TURNTABLE BASE for TECHNICS SP-10 mk2/MkIII Direct Drive -SL-1000 DD Professional Studio Turntable then you'll be aware of his bearing drain design. my ideal is to incorporate the thrust pad into the drain brass round bar thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.
heres a rough sketch showing the ideal.
so the first job is to turn a 10mm thick new brass donut,this inturn is threaded to accept the thrust pad/drain rod. when screwed in the whole bearing assembly is connected to the drain rod..
here's a photo of the new donut,its not parted off yet but has been drilled and threaded to take the drain rod. the face you can see is the underside and has been dished to clear the hump around the thrust pad thread on the black bowl.
heres a rough sketch showing the ideal.
so the first job is to turn a 10mm thick new brass donut,this inturn is threaded to accept the thrust pad/drain rod. when screwed in the whole bearing assembly is connected to the drain rod..
here's a photo of the new donut,its not parted off yet but has been drilled and threaded to take the drain rod. the face you can see is the underside and has been dished to clear the hump around the thrust pad thread on the black bowl.
Hi Jamie
The information that has been made known in earlier comments, where it has been suggested to consider adding a design to control flexion of the Bowl has now manifested as a design to manage Energy Transfer within the Bearing Housing and Brace and Anchor the Base of the Bowl to reduce flexion.
It is great to see this information being digested and a design being produced that looks to be on the money.
I do like the Spindle sitting on the Drain Rod, the usual designs for this clamp the Bearing housing and require energy to be transferred through additional materials, which I do not see as being as effective as your design.
This as a method has surpassed the complicated method I was intending to use that was to have a New Bowl produced, that was to have a base to overcome the issues you have been resolving by keeping the OEM Parts remaining in place.
I would be quite happy to purchase a Drain Rod let me know how you get on with the production.
The information that has been made known in earlier comments, where it has been suggested to consider adding a design to control flexion of the Bowl has now manifested as a design to manage Energy Transfer within the Bearing Housing and Brace and Anchor the Base of the Bowl to reduce flexion.
It is great to see this information being digested and a design being produced that looks to be on the money.
I do like the Spindle sitting on the Drain Rod, the usual designs for this clamp the Bearing housing and require energy to be transferred through additional materials, which I do not see as being as effective as your design.
This as a method has surpassed the complicated method I was intending to use that was to have a New Bowl produced, that was to have a base to overcome the issues you have been resolving by keeping the OEM Parts remaining in place.
I would be quite happy to purchase a Drain Rod let me know how you get on with the production.
a bit more work done today,the design has changed to incorporate a friends idea of using silicone oil as a damping agent, i will turn a larger hole in the brass base to accommodate the oil and sink the bottom of the drain rod into it,it will then be held rigid with grub screws.
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more work on the drain rod/thrust pad.
i've chosen lignum vitae as the thrust pad material. a lock nut has also been fabricated and the rod machined part way down to pass through the hole in the pcb. the pcb will need to be lifted away (stand offs) by approximately 16mm to clear the lock nut.
i've chosen lignum vitae as the thrust pad material. a lock nut has also been fabricated and the rod machined part way down to pass through the hole in the pcb. the pcb will need to be lifted away (stand offs) by approximately 16mm to clear the lock nut.
Hi Jamie
After the discussions had on this subject and now seeing the machined parts.
I am leaning towards/convinced the method of modifying the Bearing Base and creating a device to act as an energy drain and brace to reduce flexion has been a worthwhile consideration.
Your designs even though presenting a complexity to produce are much more simplified and achievable than the over engineered and over complicated designs I have on my overhaul diagram.
I genuinely can't see there being much difference in the two designs when it comes to how they interface and impact on the TT's performance. My version was to machine a New Bowl with the base machined to receive O Rings, a Thrust Pad and the underside of the bowl machined to receive the Anchor/Brace Thread. The Oil Well has not been on my diagram and there does not seem to be much to suggest it is not going to add further value to the dissipation of transferred energy.
The idea of the oil well also serving as the Anchor Point for the Brace and locking the brace rigid to the oil well using fastenings that are penetrating through the oil well side wall is another method that seems to be quite valuable and worthy of being produced.
I look forward to your feedback on how this when attached impacts on the performance of both owned TT's and how the part in use compares when attached to the OEM TT and your Modified TT.
After the discussions had on this subject and now seeing the machined parts.
I am leaning towards/convinced the method of modifying the Bearing Base and creating a device to act as an energy drain and brace to reduce flexion has been a worthwhile consideration.
Your designs even though presenting a complexity to produce are much more simplified and achievable than the over engineered and over complicated designs I have on my overhaul diagram.
I genuinely can't see there being much difference in the two designs when it comes to how they interface and impact on the TT's performance. My version was to machine a New Bowl with the base machined to receive O Rings, a Thrust Pad and the underside of the bowl machined to receive the Anchor/Brace Thread. The Oil Well has not been on my diagram and there does not seem to be much to suggest it is not going to add further value to the dissipation of transferred energy.
The idea of the oil well also serving as the Anchor Point for the Brace and locking the brace rigid to the oil well using fastenings that are penetrating through the oil well side wall is another method that seems to be quite valuable and worthy of being produced.
I look forward to your feedback on how this when attached impacts on the performance of both owned TT's and how the part in use compares when attached to the OEM TT and your Modified TT.
Torlon Bush Update
I have shared in a conversation today with the engineer producing the Torlon Bushes and have good news to report.
It is looking most likely that the Bushes will be ready for Friday 15-10-2021.
When I have the 10 Pairs in my possession, I will commence with acquiring the delivery addresses of the GB Members.
John
I have shared in a conversation today with the engineer producing the Torlon Bushes and have good news to report.
It is looking most likely that the Bushes will be ready for Friday 15-10-2021.
When I have the 10 Pairs in my possession, I will commence with acquiring the delivery addresses of the GB Members.
John
yep good news john,
some more progress today,
slight change of design to the rod and the vibration sink has now been machined so i will fit it today and see what if any difference its made,the gap around the rod can be filled with silcone oil or left empty,the set screws can also be tightened or left loose.
some more progress today,
slight change of design to the rod and the vibration sink has now been machined so i will fit it today and see what if any difference its made,the gap around the rod can be filled with silcone oil or left empty,the set screws can also be tightened or left loose.
Hi Jamie
A Picture is a Thousand Words and there is potential with this design.
The method being produced is quite unique in relation to the TTS 8000 and I will presume your TTS is the only TTS with such a modification.
The pioneering variants of methods used for this TT, that other TT Brands/Models have been known to benefit from is quite an interesting prospect and one I am enjoying seeing evolve.
A Picture is a Thousand Words and there is potential with this design.
The method being produced is quite unique in relation to the TTS 8000 and I will presume your TTS is the only TTS with such a modification.
The pioneering variants of methods used for this TT, that other TT Brands/Models have been known to benefit from is quite an interesting prospect and one I am enjoying seeing evolve.
my thoughts on yesterdays listening.
positive,my main tt sits in a custom made panzerholz plinth and the turntable has been fitted with torlon spindle bushes which drastically lowered the noise floor over the standard bronze oilites. its mounted on a wall shelf
my other tts sits in sonys own tb1 resin plinth and it is that turntable that has the bearing drain/brace fitted.it sits on top of a rack
the best outcome i hoped for was to match the torlon bushed one. i think that has been achieved as after 4 hours of continuous listening i really didnt feel the need to go back to the other turntable!
it would seem to me that the bearing drain is doing excactly that, draining away unwanted bearing noise as the noise floor has been lowered.
the silicone oil viscosity makes a difference as does the tightness of the grub screws,i settled on 30000 cst oil and just slightly tight on the screws, more grades of oil could be tried later. the lignum vitae thrust pad also seems to be holding up well and has no detrimental
effects that i can tell to the sound.
i will give it a week of use and then go back to my no.1 turntable to compare. if my findings have not changed my next thoughts will be to incorporate the bearing drain into the torlon bushed turntable.
sp10 users should consider this mod!
positive,my main tt sits in a custom made panzerholz plinth and the turntable has been fitted with torlon spindle bushes which drastically lowered the noise floor over the standard bronze oilites. its mounted on a wall shelf
my other tts sits in sonys own tb1 resin plinth and it is that turntable that has the bearing drain/brace fitted.it sits on top of a rack
the best outcome i hoped for was to match the torlon bushed one. i think that has been achieved as after 4 hours of continuous listening i really didnt feel the need to go back to the other turntable!
it would seem to me that the bearing drain is doing excactly that, draining away unwanted bearing noise as the noise floor has been lowered.
the silicone oil viscosity makes a difference as does the tightness of the grub screws,i settled on 30000 cst oil and just slightly tight on the screws, more grades of oil could be tried later. the lignum vitae thrust pad also seems to be holding up well and has no detrimental
effects that i can tell to the sound.
i will give it a week of use and then go back to my no.1 turntable to compare. if my findings have not changed my next thoughts will be to incorporate the bearing drain into the torlon bushed turntable.
sp10 users should consider this mod!
Once more, Hat Off to Jamie.
Great to see one more modification designed and functioning to incorporate a multifunctional role.
My thoughts have been for a long period and made known in this Thread that the Pressed Bowl, as a result of the Material used and the attaching method of the Pressed Bowl to the chassis can allow for the Bowl to encounter flexion during the TT's operation, which can impact on the Bearing Housing maintaining a rigid positioning.
The flexion 'if present' can then impact on the Spindle and can change the geometry of the Spindles operation.
This latest modification in use is looking like it is successful in producing a Brace for the Pressed Bowl/Bearing Housing that will improve on the rigidity.
Additionally the design allows for the dissipation of energy transferred through the Spindle.
The Anchor that was to be coupled to the Brace to improve on the dissipation of energy has now got an added method for improving the efficiency to dissipate energy transferred, as the Oil Filled Trough will offer an effective solution to damp the received energy.
Tonearms have been using this method to assist with damping dissipated wand energy,
and any period of reading up on this will show different viscosities of Oil have been favoured by end users.
I am looking forward to the updates on how these new modifications are being perceived for the effect on the SQ.
Especially to learn if they are considered as being worthwhile and to be maintained.
One for Jamie to consider, as I know he likes to travel with some of his kit, especially the TTS 8000, maybe a wadding saturated in oil might also prove to offer similar properties to the Well of Oil, bearing in mind your design has non moving components submerged in oil, and other methods usually have a component submerged in oil that is travelling.
The Oil contained in a Absorbent Material might be much friendlier for Transit Purposes and alleviate concerns about spillage.
From the advisories made known in earlier Posts within this Thread, it looks like the only one left is to overcome the Wobbly Platter. If Jamie achieves this he will have closed out all of the issues that have been advised on in previous posts as being detrimental to the TTS 8000 Performance and SQ.
Great to see one more modification designed and functioning to incorporate a multifunctional role.
My thoughts have been for a long period and made known in this Thread that the Pressed Bowl, as a result of the Material used and the attaching method of the Pressed Bowl to the chassis can allow for the Bowl to encounter flexion during the TT's operation, which can impact on the Bearing Housing maintaining a rigid positioning.
The flexion 'if present' can then impact on the Spindle and can change the geometry of the Spindles operation.
This latest modification in use is looking like it is successful in producing a Brace for the Pressed Bowl/Bearing Housing that will improve on the rigidity.
Additionally the design allows for the dissipation of energy transferred through the Spindle.
The Anchor that was to be coupled to the Brace to improve on the dissipation of energy has now got an added method for improving the efficiency to dissipate energy transferred, as the Oil Filled Trough will offer an effective solution to damp the received energy.
Tonearms have been using this method to assist with damping dissipated wand energy,
and any period of reading up on this will show different viscosities of Oil have been favoured by end users.
I am looking forward to the updates on how these new modifications are being perceived for the effect on the SQ.
Especially to learn if they are considered as being worthwhile and to be maintained.
One for Jamie to consider, as I know he likes to travel with some of his kit, especially the TTS 8000, maybe a wadding saturated in oil might also prove to offer similar properties to the Well of Oil, bearing in mind your design has non moving components submerged in oil, and other methods usually have a component submerged in oil that is travelling.
The Oil contained in a Absorbent Material might be much friendlier for Transit Purposes and alleviate concerns about spillage.
From the advisories made known in earlier Posts within this Thread, it looks like the only one left is to overcome the Wobbly Platter. If Jamie achieves this he will have closed out all of the issues that have been advised on in previous posts as being detrimental to the TTS 8000 Performance and SQ.
Torlon Bush Group Buy Update
I have received an email to inform me that the 10 Pairs of Torlon Bushes are now produced.
I have been informed there is a change to the Tolerance used on the prototype and I believe my TTS 8000 bearing housing has been used to trial fit a Pair and the interface is an improvement.
I am hoping to have a date confirmed next week to visit and pick these up.
I will be needing the Delivery Addresses of the GB Members forwarded to me to acquire the postage costs.
I have received an email to inform me that the 10 Pairs of Torlon Bushes are now produced.
I have been informed there is a change to the Tolerance used on the prototype and I believe my TTS 8000 bearing housing has been used to trial fit a Pair and the interface is an improvement.
I am hoping to have a date confirmed next week to visit and pick these up.
I will be needing the Delivery Addresses of the GB Members forwarded to me to acquire the postage costs.