I had tubes like that, but they didn't sound all that good, and the getters all went white....
Anyway, in somewhat serious light, I think tubes sound good in that they produce a small amount of 2nd H (like 45dB down) which happens to sound pleasing to the human ear. But it also matters how "busy" the music is. A lot of frequencies will make for some intermodulation distortion products, which sound awful. The mechanism that produced the 2nd H will also produce intermod. How much of both is the question, if you will get a great sounding amp or yuck.
Oh my God, I can barely follow you...
Let's put aside electron flow in beer bottles and big electrons on TO3 and small electrons on OC7 transistor...
What about the upper harmonics colouring sound more than 2nd or 3rd ad pointed out by Lynn Olson?
Anyway, I like Newcastle brown ale, stronger energy electrons in there… oh, in a dark bottle… not to let UV contaminate the taste…
Cheers
Let's put aside electron flow in beer bottles and big electrons on TO3 and small electrons on OC7 transistor...
What about the upper harmonics colouring sound more than 2nd or 3rd ad pointed out by Lynn Olson?
Anyway, I like Newcastle brown ale, stronger energy electrons in there… oh, in a dark bottle… not to let UV contaminate the taste…
Cheers
I found something interesting about 1/f noise.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1202/bybee.htm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1202/bybee.htm
Breathe deep the gathering......
Airiness??
Ouch.. the Physics 'review hurts my brain..
I don't think there are definitive, imperically proven theories out there concerning the 'sonics' of tubes...there are a few tantalizing characteristics of tubes that need a theory to tie together with the superior sound....I for one would like to expound on the Hysteresis kink of OPTs' for SE operation....& how the 'idle' current straightens out this kink......Supposedly the midrange is superior for SE and the "kink" is to be "blamed"???
I have concluded the even harmonics are to take the credit..Listen to a tuning fork at its' frequency (Note) ...play the same 'note' on a piano....which do you prefer?
Extending the metaphor, strike three white keys with one space between each...sounds good yes?? Strike one white key with one black...sounds discomforting?
This is my "dirty" theory on even versus odd harmonics. OR tubes versus solid state.
_________________________________________Rick........
Airiness??
Ouch.. the Physics 'review hurts my brain..
I don't think there are definitive, imperically proven theories out there concerning the 'sonics' of tubes...there are a few tantalizing characteristics of tubes that need a theory to tie together with the superior sound....I for one would like to expound on the Hysteresis kink of OPTs' for SE operation....& how the 'idle' current straightens out this kink......Supposedly the midrange is superior for SE and the "kink" is to be "blamed"???
I have concluded the even harmonics are to take the credit..Listen to a tuning fork at its' frequency (Note) ...play the same 'note' on a piano....which do you prefer?
Extending the metaphor, strike three white keys with one space between each...sounds good yes?? Strike one white key with one black...sounds discomforting?
This is my "dirty" theory on even versus odd harmonics. OR tubes versus solid state.
_________________________________________Rick........
I for one have been building solid state amps of all types for some years now. I decided to build my first tube based amp last month out of pure curiosity and did not expect much in terms of performance out of it. I aim for linearity and not sound coloration so i did my best using a very basic topology ustilising two triodes for the amplification and driver stages. I must conclude that there is definatly somthing different about the sonic reproduction of the amp as compared to any SS topology. For the first time even with the primitive design i laid out purley as a tube test circuit, i eneded up with a VERY NATURAL sounding amp. I dont know about 'Airy' sound or primeval infra/ultra sonic detection but i do know this.. Amplification topologies utilising tubes as the active amplification devices really DOES amplify the signal differently and to me it makes the sound way more natural. This is precisley what i have been looking for so i'm sticking with tubes from now on. Maybe the 'Air' factor should be included in manufacturers specs as it certaintly sounds good to me I only hope that what i'm enjoying in the sound is a product of extended linearisation of the upper frequences and not some form of colorisation or 'nice' harmonic signiture. Whatever it is, it is definatly lacking in solid state, and i can definatly say that i'm talking from personal experience. I always found the sound of my High feedback SS amps sort of scratchy or clippy but i could never quite describe the distortion as i could never actually isolate any distortion or clipping. All i can say is it was almost hard work to listen to and unsatisfactory and kinda non-natural. My first tube amp sounds very natural ( you get the feeling your stood in the middle of the audio stage ) and is very pleasing to listen to. I could go as far as to say it makes bad music actually sound good so much so that i want to listen to CD's that i normally never ever play but that would be taking descriptions too far i thinkX LOL!
In short, I personally think that tubes DO sound different, hopefully not because of any sonic effects but rather the LACK of them
Regards
Leigh
I only hope that what i'm enjoying in the sound is a product of extended linearisation of the upper frequences and not some form of colorisation or 'nice' harmonic signiture. Whatever it is, it is definatly lacking in solid state, and i can definatly say that i'm talking from personal experience. I always found the sound of my High feedback SS amps sort of scratchy or clippy but i could never quite describe the distortion as i could never actually isolate any distortion or clipping. All i can say is it was almost hard work to listen to and unsatisfactory and kinda non-natural. My first tube amp sounds very natural ( you get the feeling your stood in the middle of the audio stage ) and is very pleasing to listen to. I could go as far as to say it makes bad music actually sound good so much so that i want to listen to CD's that i normally never ever play but that would be taking descriptions too far i thinkX LOL!In short, I personally think that tubes DO sound different, hopefully not because of any sonic effects but rather the LACK of them
Regards
Leigh
Hi,
I don't think that what you're hearing as "air" has anything to do with tubes or other device causing an artefact of some sorts.
Some recordings are well made and on those you can, given the right set up and ditto equipment, hear the acoustics of the recording venue, space (aka air) between the various musicians and so on.
IOW, these various audio journalists's terms try describe the feeling of actually being present at the venue during the recording session into further detail.
Cheers,
I don't think that what you're hearing as "air" has anything to do with tubes or other device causing an artefact of some sorts.
Some recordings are well made and on those you can, given the right set up and ditto equipment, hear the acoustics of the recording venue, space (aka air) between the various musicians and so on.
IOW, these various audio journalists's terms try describe the feeling of actually being present at the venue during the recording session into further detail.
Cheers,
In short, I personally think that tubes DO sound different, hopefully not because of any sonic effects but rather the LACK of them
Right. I would say, lack of some effects that otherwise kill reverberation and natural decay of sounds.
Attachments
So how does one differentiate 1/f noise from music in the same frequency band once it has been through the output terminals and is at the load (speakers)?
Of course, the information is top secret because it is used by the military and can't be revealed due to national secruity.
Great marketing.
I posted that link because it discusses the 1/f noise. I don't know how that device they're selling works. Its widely known that the material the electrons go through can affect the sound. I was surprised to find out how much the sound from different types of speaker cables can vary. People even claim to hear the difference between germanium and silicon transistors. I could hear a difference when I compared them one time. There seems to be an even bigger difference between germanium and silicon diodes (ie. in a ratio detector in an FM radio), if the ones I used are good examples. Manufacturing processes might also be a factor, though.
Hi,
I don't think that what you're hearing as "air" has anything to do with tubes or other device causing an artefact of some sorts.
Some recordings are well made and on those you can, given the right set up and ditto equipment, hear the acoustics of the recording venue, space (aka air) between the various musicians and so on.
IOW, these various audio journalists's terms try describe the feeling of actually being present at the venue during the recording session into further detail.
Cheers,
Yes, air is the lack of artifacts, lack of clutter, lack of intermodulation products, lack of comb filtering artifacts due to unequal delays in recording...
You can't add air to a recording that doesn't have it, but you can easily displace it with noise and distortion. Odd harmonic distortion makes things denser, but even harmonic not so much. Intermodulation distortion, even TIM, displaces air.
BTW, Surfacing, while being a sonic masterpiece, doesn't strike me as a particulary airy recording; compare Aja
I've never read about any blind test finding a difference in speaker cable other than that "bigger is better". By "blind" I mean where the listeners did not know which cable they were listening to or even if successive tests used the same or different cable. I really have been looking for an example of this.
The difference in semiconductor type are easy to explain. None of the curves are really straight line. (maybe that is why we call them "curves") The shape of the curve defines harmonic content of the amplified signal. This is basic theory known by engineers going back before world war II at least. It is something you can measure and it shows up in simulations too. but it is NOT because of the kind of material the electrons travel through. From an electron's point of view solid copper is made out of empty space.
Going way, way back to the OP's question about why tube sound different. the answer is easy: All amplifiers distort the signal. None are perfect. By a fluke of luck it just works out the the kind of distortion made by tubes is "musical" and we humans like it. But the kind of distortion make by SS is of a type we don't like. (Yes there are counter examples.)
(If you are a musician this is elementary, forgive me.) If you play any note on a piano, say "C" and then go 8 white keys up to the next C and play it at the same time we like the sound, we call it an octave (8) interval. There are other intervals we like. a 3 and 5 makes a major triad, it's "happy sounding" chord. As it turns out a second harmonic distortion product is the same exact thing as an octave interval. I'll say that even stronger: It is not "like" an octave it "is" an octave. So triode tubes just happen to make a musical interval as their main distortion product. So we think trides sound good. Musicians use 7th and 9th chords when they want to use dissonance to create some tension, transistors tend to make some distortion products with more higher order and odd harmonics You can work out the relationship between harmonic content and chords with only a little math. There is no Voodoo involved.
But what no one knows is why humans like certain musical intervals. Why in the world would two frequencies that are small integer multples of each other be universally judged as "good" while other small integer ratios are not good. It's an old question we will not solve today. Pythagoras asked this same question 2,500 years ago and we still don't know. He did have some theory about why some ratios were good but it was all circular logic
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.