I can't say if i'm right or wrong because my mind is totally immersed in the experimental field, i will probably loose my way by digressing or embrace another concept or POV.
Sure the TAD loudspeakers drivers and their associated biradial horns are probably one of the best lourspeakers avaliable but the perfection is not my goal, i'm just tailoring a "good enough" solution
that perfectly match the topic subject.Where is the phase plug ? how do you manage phase cancellations ?
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Hi Guys sorry for the very late reply.
Your replies have all been helpful and sent me into a month-long information blackhole!
Still currently reading and digesting all the pros and cons of each of your suggestions.
Honestly some of the information has been pretty daunting but well worth the learning acquired.
Asking for some advance patience if my following replies will be dumb as nails as I'm a newb in this matter.
One clarification I've been trying to grapple with is if I aim to crossover to 500hz and not aim for the 20khz goal and just use a supertweeter to supplement the horn will this be more doable even if I use a shallower profile horn waveguide?
Also I seem to be getting some conflicting information with some saying that the 500hz crossover goal is doable for a 2" comp driver and some saying that it isn't. I'm thinking that it may be possible but by doing that some added complications may arise.
But! Are these "complications" livable enough since I have a fairly small room?
My goals are:
1.) Efficiency (I have a puny 10 watt triode tube amp)
2.) "Horn-y Sound" I heard a Klipsch Cornwall and would want to stick with the horn sound in a smaller footprint (heard the Heresy and I'm not fond of them), crossing over to 500hz grants me a crossoverless midrange and I would want that.
3.) Dynamics and Soundstage seem to come with the Horn topography and I would want that too.
I don't know much how dispersion will be affected with my goals but since I have a small room I honestly have no clue yet on the compromises I can take in reference to a listening distance of approximately 7 ft from the horn speakers.
Many Thanks for the replies.
The Synergy Horns seem wonderful but I'm scared of the complexity of the build and the cost. If other easier options are around I can take the time to study them.
As for a 2" fullrange driver with a horn, this seems to be another option but how far will that be from the sound of a comp driver + horn combo like the Cornwall and will it match easily with a woofer? Though it's tempting to consider that I can cross even lower with this arrangement but if it's too far from the comp driver sound I'd be willing to make compromises on my specs.
Again Thank you all!! Ive read and re-read all your replies though most of them are currently making my nose bleed. :-D
Your replies have all been helpful and sent me into a month-long information blackhole!
Still currently reading and digesting all the pros and cons of each of your suggestions.
Honestly some of the information has been pretty daunting but well worth the learning acquired.
Asking for some advance patience if my following replies will be dumb as nails as I'm a newb in this matter.
One clarification I've been trying to grapple with is if I aim to crossover to 500hz and not aim for the 20khz goal and just use a supertweeter to supplement the horn will this be more doable even if I use a shallower profile horn waveguide?
Also I seem to be getting some conflicting information with some saying that the 500hz crossover goal is doable for a 2" comp driver and some saying that it isn't. I'm thinking that it may be possible but by doing that some added complications may arise.
But! Are these "complications" livable enough since I have a fairly small room?
My goals are:
1.) Efficiency (I have a puny 10 watt triode tube amp)
2.) "Horn-y Sound" I heard a Klipsch Cornwall and would want to stick with the horn sound in a smaller footprint (heard the Heresy and I'm not fond of them), crossing over to 500hz grants me a crossoverless midrange and I would want that.
3.) Dynamics and Soundstage seem to come with the Horn topography and I would want that too.
I don't know much how dispersion will be affected with my goals but since I have a small room I honestly have no clue yet on the compromises I can take in reference to a listening distance of approximately 7 ft from the horn speakers.
Many Thanks for the replies.
The Synergy Horns seem wonderful but I'm scared of the complexity of the build and the cost. If other easier options are around I can take the time to study them.
As for a 2" fullrange driver with a horn, this seems to be another option but how far will that be from the sound of a comp driver + horn combo like the Cornwall and will it match easily with a woofer? Though it's tempting to consider that I can cross even lower with this arrangement but if it's too far from the comp driver sound I'd be willing to make compromises on my specs.
Again Thank you all!! Ive read and re-read all your replies though most of them are currently making my nose bleed. :-D
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Its funny how the reply's to the OPs topic went of on a tangent, with everybody putting in there 10cents worth, and we forgot that the OP only has a listening area of 9ft x 9ft and the OP is a newbie with most likely little or no experience with designing or building speakers and probably thinks what the &*$% everyone is talking about.
and BTW hornwannabe your listening room is too small for real "Horns" to work properly, you probably want a high efficiency/sensitive mid bass driver and a 1.2K and above comp driver horn setup, a bit like these Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
cheers, Arthur
and BTW hornwannabe your listening room is too small for real "Horns" to work properly, you probably want a high efficiency/sensitive mid bass driver and a 1.2K and above comp driver horn setup, a bit like these Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
cheers, Arthur
20 Khz is impossible, but who really need it, a equalized 2" compression can go over 12K.
It's enough IMHO
20 Khz is impossible, but who really need it, a equalized 2" compression can go over 12K.
It's enough IMHO
Yup! That’s what I was thinking too!
Here's my experience: I had a much larger room than yours (more than 3 times larger), with a 15" woofer and a large format horn (21" x 13" output - similar to an EV HP940) and 2"CD. Also 3 subwoofers distributed about the room. All active crossover with DSP. It sounded marvelous if I was at least 12 feet from the speakers (my normal listening position). Yes, the response above 10 or 12kHz was a bit ragged even with a fair amount of EQ. It never really bothered me at all. My friends an I all thought it sounded great (most of my friends said that it was the best hi-fi they had ever heard and they were astonished that you could get sound like that in a home).
Then I moved and my listening room became smaller (still twice as big as your room). My speakers sounded not so good. I couldn't get the woofer and horn to integrate well at all. I was too close to them. Changing the crossover to different slopes (shallower as well as steeper) did not fix the problem. EQ didn't fix the problem. Delay didn't fix the problem.
I am currently using a large format co-axial (along with the subs) and it's OK. At least it is well integrated. I will build a new set of speakers with a 15" driver that can go to 1kHz (a JBL 2226) and 1" CD along with one of the QSC 14" x 10" horns that I've stashed away (or maybe a JBL PT horn - I'll experiment). Hopefully this will be better than the old huge horn.
My take away was that it's hard to integrate a large horn with a large driver if you listen too close. If this was the wrong lesson, I would be eager to learn (from someone who has done it - not just theorized about it) how to get it to work as my old speakers were very enjoyable.
Then I moved and my listening room became smaller (still twice as big as your room). My speakers sounded not so good. I couldn't get the woofer and horn to integrate well at all. I was too close to them. Changing the crossover to different slopes (shallower as well as steeper) did not fix the problem. EQ didn't fix the problem. Delay didn't fix the problem.
I am currently using a large format co-axial (along with the subs) and it's OK. At least it is well integrated. I will build a new set of speakers with a 15" driver that can go to 1kHz (a JBL 2226) and 1" CD along with one of the QSC 14" x 10" horns that I've stashed away (or maybe a JBL PT horn - I'll experiment). Hopefully this will be better than the old huge horn.
My take away was that it's hard to integrate a large horn with a large driver if you listen too close. If this was the wrong lesson, I would be eager to learn (from someone who has done it - not just theorized about it) how to get it to work as my old speakers were very enjoyable.
Would want to learn too.
I'm no expert but that's also why I'm asking if a smaller footprint horn that has a 2" compression driver and 10-12" woofer (much smaller all throughout than your system) can be made to work in my smaller room.
If someone can explain (and experientially like you did) why it would not work AT ALL I'd be very grateful.
Since I won't be taxing the system too much with a lesser need for spl maybe I can get away with a lower crossed CD in a much smaller horn.
I'm no expert but that's also why I'm asking if a smaller footprint horn that has a 2" compression driver and 10-12" woofer (much smaller all throughout than your system) can be made to work in my smaller room.
If someone can explain (and experientially like you did) why it would not work AT ALL I'd be very grateful.
Since I won't be taxing the system too much with a lesser need for spl maybe I can get away with a lower crossed CD in a much smaller horn.
No problem using a compression driver crossed just below 500 Hz. No issues there.
Efficiency is not an issue for midrange horns/drivers. Small SET amplifiers can easily drive these to deafening levels. It's the woofers that eat the power--so think about a larger woofer for efficiency (ported 15" diameter is usually a good size), or something like a slot-loaded push-pull design.
It's best to start with a good midrange/HF horn having good directivity vs. frequency, which is why I talked about the K-510. The Pi kit would be a good alternative.
There are other horns that perform less well, but may be "good enough" that are also quite cheap, but note that directivity vs. frequency determines the sound of the loudspeaker in-room. That's why I spent so much time talking about that performance parameter.
The Klipsch Heresy has a very short exponential midrange horn that could be improved upon--it's a dated horn design. The single horn/2" compression driver will sound like the horn that is attached to it. If you want "horn honk", then use a full exponential or hyperbolic area expansion horn, and you'll get horn honk.
If you want a more neutral but equally dynamic sound, then use a straight-sided or straight-sided/flared mouth horn (i.e., some people call these "conical", but few if any are truly conical area expansion ratios).
The Cornwall is actually a fairly neutral sounding loudspeaker even though it uses an exponential midrange horn.
The Heresy sound less neutral with its much shorter midrange exponential horn. Much of of the Heresy's sound is dominated by the 12" direct radiating woofer. This is due to wider directivity vs. frequency as you near the crossover point with the midrange horn/driver.
Larger 15" woofer diameters usually sound more pleasing if using direct radiating woofers, but this is also a function of the exact design parameters of the woofers used.
I also see little reason to putz with multiple entry horn (MEH) since you can do it all from 500 Hz on up with one compression driver and horn, especially in such a small room--that's easy. You can later try out MEHs if you want a science project to tinker with.
The only downside to using one driver for that entire range is the limitation of about 120 dB (at one metre on axis) in an extremely loud PA or pro cinema application, which is why most cinema and PA loudspeakers break that band into two bands and use two horns/drivers to span the gap--acoustic power is the driving factor. FM distortion isn't an issue using horns, but is a problem using direct radiating midrange and tweeter drivers, which is why you see separate midrange and tweeter used in home consumer loudspeakers without horn loading.
You're still squarely in the Cornwall-type sound using a single 2" compression driver from below 500 Hz to above 10 kHz. No problems there. I'd pay more attention to the woofer and/or loading of the woofer, i.e., stay away from ported box designs that have a lot of group delay or phase growth. Also, using a 15" woofer with a horn that has a mismatch in coverage angles will not sound very good. I'd bet that one of these design details (high group delay or directivity mismatches) was the issue with the guy that reported problems with the 15" woofer and midrange horn in a smaller room. You need good directivity control even more in a small room.
Chris
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As always, it's usually understood that if the loudspeaker's SPL vs. frequency isn't really flat (within +/-3 dB or even tighter...from 100-10,000 Hz, with particular attention in the 400-4 kHz band to make it as flat as possible), then the loudspeaker won't sound as good as one that has flat response. All the things that I talked about above assume that you've got the frequency response flat.
If you run into someone that tells you that you need unequal frequency response to make it "sound good" either one of two things is occurring:
1) you're trying to compensate for mastering EQ in your recordings using your loudspeakers. (This is a poor choice--fix the recordings, not the loudspeakers.)
2) you're trying to compensate for directivity issues of the loudspeaker in-room. This means that if you've got really wildly varying coverage angles (horizontally and vertically) vs. frequency, you'll hear that as an unbalanced loudspeaker frequency response. If you take those same loudspeaker outside and play them in an environment without near field acoustic reflections, they will sound much better (assuming that their on-axis SPL vs. frequency is flat to begin with).
Chris
If you run into someone that tells you that you need unequal frequency response to make it "sound good" either one of two things is occurring:
1) you're trying to compensate for mastering EQ in your recordings using your loudspeakers. (This is a poor choice--fix the recordings, not the loudspeakers.)
2) you're trying to compensate for directivity issues of the loudspeaker in-room. This means that if you've got really wildly varying coverage angles (horizontally and vertically) vs. frequency, you'll hear that as an unbalanced loudspeaker frequency response. If you take those same loudspeaker outside and play them in an environment without near field acoustic reflections, they will sound much better (assuming that their on-axis SPL vs. frequency is flat to begin with).
Chris
Thank you so much for the continued replies Chris, you’ve been a lot of help.
Already convinced with the K510s but initial searches seem to indicate that they’re close to unobtainium and I dont think I want to order them with a driver already from Klipsch directly (do they sell these as a horn only?)
Are there any other options close to these that also have their SHALLOW profile?
Sold on the dimensions of the K510 and I feel that I can work with that as a starting point.
Would your original recommendation of a 15” bass reflex or Sealed 12” woofer still stand if I get something similar to the K510?
I honestly dont know how to match polars between horns and drivers, if you can point me to some literature on that I can learn by myself.
Though if you can give me some tried and true combinations of low crossed horns and drivers that would be excellent.
Lastly.... will this horn work in a lower cross?
Eminence H2EA Is A 60°x 40° 2" Horn
Thank you so much!!
Already convinced with the K510s but initial searches seem to indicate that they’re close to unobtainium and I dont think I want to order them with a driver already from Klipsch directly (do they sell these as a horn only?)
Are there any other options close to these that also have their SHALLOW profile?
Sold on the dimensions of the K510 and I feel that I can work with that as a starting point.
Would your original recommendation of a 15” bass reflex or Sealed 12” woofer still stand if I get something similar to the K510?
I honestly dont know how to match polars between horns and drivers, if you can point me to some literature on that I can learn by myself.
Though if you can give me some tried and true combinations of low crossed horns and drivers that would be excellent.
Lastly.... will this horn work in a lower cross?
Eminence H2EA Is A 60°x 40° 2" Horn
Thank you so much!!
I'll look at alternative horns. If the K-510 is not feasible for cost reasons, the one mentioned above is probably the next best choice. It's about 50% larger in overall volume.
I don't recommend any midrange horn with diffraction slots internally. The older JBL horns (and their knock-off equivalents) have these. They create higher order modes (HOMs) that exit the horn above 4 kHz (on a 2" diameter throat) and will add the sound of frying eggs in oil because of that.
The big JBL bi-radial horns are usually pretty good in terms of polars and controlling their HOMs, but they're big. I'll look around for lower cost alternatives. This is one area that I think needs to have reasonable cost alternatives that work better, and I've got ideas on how to provide those solutions, but until I get through the horn molding that I'm doing now, it will have to wait.
Chris
I don't recommend any midrange horn with diffraction slots internally. The older JBL horns (and their knock-off equivalents) have these. They create higher order modes (HOMs) that exit the horn above 4 kHz (on a 2" diameter throat) and will add the sound of frying eggs in oil because of that.
The big JBL bi-radial horns are usually pretty good in terms of polars and controlling their HOMs, but they're big. I'll look around for lower cost alternatives. This is one area that I think needs to have reasonable cost alternatives that work better, and I've got ideas on how to provide those solutions, but until I get through the horn molding that I'm doing now, it will have to wait.
Chris
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Sorry, but I'm not good at putting into words how something sounds (I guess that's why I chose engineering and not writing as a career ;-)
In my old room, with adequate distance to the speakers, there was a very stable image of the musicians regardless of where I sat on a 4 person wide sofa. I could even move up or down half a meter without messing up the image. In the new room, much closer to the speakers, the image was awful. It was like I could hear a separate woofer and tweeter that were some distance apart.
I also had to change the bass management completely due to room differences, but that was not so hard. Bass sounded fine after tweaking. It was everything else...
Just got this from Klipsch support, re the K-510: "Unfortunately, that horn is a pro cinema part, and cannot be sold at a consumer level. They are only available to repair or maintain our pro cinema model speakers."
I know, from reading the Klipsch forum in which Chris is active, that there is some type of secret-handshake-ish stuff that can make some of these pieces available, but it looks like alternatives will be necessary for most.
I know, from reading the Klipsch forum in which Chris is active, that there is some type of secret-handshake-ish stuff that can make some of these pieces available, but it looks like alternatives will be necessary for most.
Well this would be my recommendation, but it might not be what you are hoping for.
Western Electric 15A Small SATO horn
It doesn't have a bigger footprint than the woofer.
Western Electric 15A Small SATO horn
It doesn't have a bigger footprint than the woofer.