Neither I nor the OP said 1 is 2. You are oversimplifying to make us look like halfwits
Reading your last sentence reminds me of the Dark Ages and the Holly Inquisition
I said it. It is for others to judge how smart and historically significant is my mind, and my sayings.reaction said:
I don't know if anyone on here works for NASA. I guess a few may do; we certainly have some working in (or recently retired from) various genuine high-tech industries: chip design, defence systems, polymers, big-science research labs. Similarly MENSA; some on here may qualify for it but I have never heard of anyone admitting membership.
Whether there are audiphiles on here would have to depend on your definition of audiophile. If you mean people who listen to the equipment instead of the music then there are many.
No snow here yet.
You assert something which is false, and claim the right to have your own version of reality. That is equivalent to claiming that Australia is a small island in the Atlantic.selfy said:
No inquisition. I said that people talking nonsense should be corrected, not punished or forbidden. You are free to ask about component directionality. I am free to comment. That is how forums should work, and how this forum actually does work. There is very little censorship here, which some people find disturbing. Nobody gets banned for talking nonsense.
Having said my piece, I will leave you to glean whatever answers you seek.
I know, it can be intimidating. But I learned that they are just like people, but people that have a lot of knowledge and experience to offer. Suck 'm dry I would say!
Jan
Have you tried to turn around a resistor in a circuit and listen?
Or you read somewhere that it cannot and just talking by the books?
Call me a troll but I would like to express how happy I am that people designing and producing audio equipment are so pragmatic. If they would have to turn around every resistor and film capacitor in all possible combinations, or start op-amp rolling judging by ears, we would never have ready made equipment since it would still be in endless design stage
Regards,
Oleg
Regards,
Oleg
Have you tried to turn around a resistor in a circuit and listen?
Or you read somewhere that it cannot and just talking by the books?
Actually I read here that it can, and knowing that it goes against all know knowledge, against all books, against all physics, I am waiting for some plausible explanation that it can actually happen, before spending further time on it. Unless the resistor is broken of course, but then just throw it away and get a good one.
As someone once said, extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof.
Edit: of course, the phenomenon can be easily and routine explained by how perception works, but why should any audiophile be interested in how his hearing and hearing perception works, right?
Jan
Last edited:
Some physics for physics lovers re signal conductor directionality:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/cables_explained.pdf
Just imagine that similar case is applicable to Z-foil resistors as well. The foil has some directionality due to moulding/trimming process. Why don't you just try and listen? It doesn't hurt at all. Eventually somebody may think you're crazy, but you're grown-up men and you can cope with that, I am pretty sure
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/cables_explained.pdf
Just imagine that similar case is applicable to Z-foil resistors as well. The foil has some directionality due to moulding/trimming process. Why don't you just try and listen? It doesn't hurt at all. Eventually somebody may think you're crazy, but you're grown-up men and you can cope with that, I am pretty sure
Hang in there reaction.
I have found interconnects to be directional.
I have quoted the example of a turntable I had and replaced the hardwired signal cables with new shielded cables.
This set up a 'sideways shifting' and 'vagueness' of the mono center signal.
I tried different phono cartridges, same deal the Balance control did not cure the problem and swapping cables at amp input swapped the LR 'imbalance' condition.
This had me stumped until a hifi dealer friend showed the same effect by swapping the direction of one of the interconnects between a cdp and amplifier.
Bingo !....I went home and sure enough I had reversed the cable direction of one channel and correcting this restored correct center image placement.
I have also identified this problem with speaker cables on other peoples systems by listening, and same result with messy centre image and image sideways shifting.
Since then I don't much care the absolute direction of cables, but do always ensure that internal wiring and external wiring run in same directions both channels.
One confounder when testing for directionality in components is source audio signal absolute polarity, which is likely to alternate according to the particular track/album auditioned.
This will cause additional confusing factor if you are not aware of this.
Running wires or components in anti-parallel reduces directional effects.
Dan.
Metal Film vs Bulk Metal Foil in audio attenuator tube line amp
I have found interconnects to be directional.
I have quoted the example of a turntable I had and replaced the hardwired signal cables with new shielded cables.
This set up a 'sideways shifting' and 'vagueness' of the mono center signal.
I tried different phono cartridges, same deal the Balance control did not cure the problem and swapping cables at amp input swapped the LR 'imbalance' condition.
This had me stumped until a hifi dealer friend showed the same effect by swapping the direction of one of the interconnects between a cdp and amplifier.
Bingo !....I went home and sure enough I had reversed the cable direction of one channel and correcting this restored correct center image placement.
I have also identified this problem with speaker cables on other peoples systems by listening, and same result with messy centre image and image sideways shifting.
Since then I don't much care the absolute direction of cables, but do always ensure that internal wiring and external wiring run in same directions both channels.
One confounder when testing for directionality in components is source audio signal absolute polarity, which is likely to alternate according to the particular track/album auditioned.
This will cause additional confusing factor if you are not aware of this.
Running wires or components in anti-parallel reduces directional effects.
Dan.
Metal Film vs Bulk Metal Foil in audio attenuator tube line amp
Last edited:
Talking about bulk metal Z-foil resistors is advertisement too, don't you think? A secret technology proprietary to Vishay, Israel. Whoa!
You forgot TCR - Bulk Metal® Foil Resistor TCR Performance (Product Demo) - VFR
Texas Components
Dan.
Touché. You just blew-up the world's marketing conspiracy.
You deal with audio for living, right? Change your occupation, please. You are wasting your time.
Last edited:
Thanks for the link Dan. It blows my mind that with all the carbon horrors in these amps one can still hear the signature of a single resistor pair.
Yet, we are still unable to perform any meaningful measurements which correlate with what is heard.
Objective audio has somehow been digging itself into a hole all these years and today we are no closer to understanding what is going on than in the forties of last century.
actually full time SOTA Audio test equipment maker Bruce Hofer claims Z foil isn't the last word in low audio frequency distortion
he has measured, and points out that it is because Z foil Resistor low TC is a themo-mechanical trick: balancing the substrate and foil TCs out at long enough times for them to equalize temperature
but at audio frequencies there is isn't time for the whole resistor foil + substrate to equilibrate so the Z foil itself shows a tiny bit of thermal modulation distortion
his recommendation for low distortion at audio frequencies is sub 5 ppm/C TC thin film resistors
in his analog design master class he didn't mention component directionallity
he has measured, and points out that it is because Z foil Resistor low TC is a themo-mechanical trick: balancing the substrate and foil TCs out at long enough times for them to equalize temperature
but at audio frequencies there is isn't time for the whole resistor foil + substrate to equilibrate so the Z foil itself shows a tiny bit of thermal modulation distortion
his recommendation for low distortion at audio frequencies is sub 5 ppm/C TC thin film resistors
in his analog design master class he didn't mention component directionallity
No, it's a hobby for me. I am retired from a real job
You seem to think that if something is related to audio you don't need to think, just 'feel' and follow whatever it is you think you hear. I disagree - anything worth doing is worth doing the best you can.
Jan
Yes. Sub-5ppm thin film is expensive so I compromise with 25ppm but 1206 size.
Edit: I am a bit jittery at the moment. Just upped the power supply on my prototype Vas for the electrostatic direct drive amp to +/-1100V. All seems well so far...
First time ever I needed a 1:100 probe to keep the scope alive.
Jan
Last edited:
It is indeed interesting that those resistors are so clearly audible despite all the downstream gear.
It's all to do with excess noise behaviours of the downstream equipment/components....change the source signal slightly and the end result can be quite strongly different.
The right 'filtering' at each stage in a system cures these dependencies.
Dan.
So in short - you did not try anything related to the topic. You're just talking having as reference all the books that you've read?
Interesting - I know a that all of the science is based on experiments, not on what anyone has read in a book.
I am glad Tesla did not think like you do otherwise who know what the world might be nowadays.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.