Room Modal Response

auplater · 2014-01-26 4:51 pm

Listening room

gedlee said:
John

If that room is as large as it looks, then the ceiling height would have to be on the order of 25-30 feet. Is that realistic? You realize that this is all in meters not feet.

Hi Earl

It's a 2 story slanted roof listening area living room... here are some pics

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Lots of sq. ft. and height is indeed ~ 25'. House (this section) is open floor plan

John L

gedlee · 2014-01-26 5:29 pm

markus76 said:
So what's the point of a simulation if there's no good correlation to reality?

Markus, you are such a PITA. We were over this before as well.

It gives people a better idea of where and how to setup the subs than just guessing. It is not going to be absolutely accurate but it will be relatively accurate. The best placement in the simulation is likely to be the best in reality although the two will still be quite different.

So what do you do? Guess?

markus76 · 2014-01-26 5:43 pm

gedlee said:
It gives people a better idea of where and how to setup the subs than just guessing. It is not going to be absolutely accurate but it will be relatively accurate. The best placement in the simulation is likely to be the best in reality although the two will still be quite different.

Yes? That's why I had asked for measurements.

gedlee said:
So what do you do? Guess?

I take measurements.

mitchba · 2014-01-26 5:44 pm

gedlee said:
Hooray!!

It finally works. Several people have run the software on numerous windows machines and it works well.

I have to thanks Mitch Barnett of Microsoft for all his help. This was not an obvious problem. It took a lot of digging to figure it out and Mitch was invaluable!! Thanks Mitch!!

What I would like to do now is to have people share some things that they learn using this app. For example, one thing that I have learned is that any intuition that you think that you have about LFs in a room go right out the window. Because of complex phase interactions things just do not seem to work like I expect them to. Its always an experience checking out your ideas to see how they really work.

To start, here is my room project. (You will have to change the ".txt" to ".prj" or my code won't find it.) It is a readable XML file.

Hi Earl, you're welcome! I am glad everything is working properly. Now I can try your software on my listening room.

Best regards, Mitch

gedlee · 2014-01-26 6:33 pm

markus76 said:
I take measurements.

Where did I say to not take measurements?

But its nice to have an idea where to start.

gedlee · 2014-01-26 6:37 pm

When I was playing with my room in the app I found that moving one sub across the room would result in dramatically better response. Surely, if I do rearrange it (which I want to do at some point), I would give that a try.

I SURE WISH that I had something like this when I initially set up my room.

Markus, if you don't trust it then don't use it.

markus76 · 2014-01-26 6:38 pm

^
"Trust but verify."

auplater · 2014-01-26 6:57 pm

Do I have measurements??

markus76 said:
^
Do you have measurements that would allow a direct comparison?

No, not yet, but after the shift of sub 3 about 6' directly under the 2nd floor sub, and some reference listening, the improvement is substantial. I'm a measurement junkie as well, I'll see if I can get some relative comps with my RTA.
I've had to reduce the sub setting by ~4 dB, and the quality and impact is vastly improved.

I'd say the software is helpful; thanks Earl. I did notice that if you change the height position, the "real time" calculation display goes away w/o a refresh "touch" in the floor plan view.

John L.

gedlee · 2014-01-26 7:31 pm

Thanks John, that would be great. But yours is going to be a worst case because your room is so large. As the modal density gets greater the randomness increase - which is a very good thing for listening. But it is a very bad thing for any expectations of correlation. Your "open" floor plane also means that other spaces couple and that would completely alter the picture.

I have the "best case" situation - a small completely sealed room with almost no coupling to the outside. It is extremely well damped and that could be an issue. But I am not a measurement junky. I loath taking measurements and do so only when I absolutely have to. I may do it someday.

auplater · 2014-01-26 7:38 pm

Just to be clear

gedlee said:
Thanks John, that would be great. But yours is going to be a worst case because your room is so large. As the modal density gets greater the randomness increase - which is a very good thing for listening. But it is a very bad thing for any expectations of correlation. Your "open" floor plane also means that other spaces couple and that would completely alter the picture. But I am not a measurement junky. I loath taking measurements and do so only when I absolutely have to. I may do it someday.

Let me rephrase that. I measure alot of things... in my chemistry, engineering, medicine pursuits etc, you HAVE to measure responses to make progress on hypotheses. Wouln't have gotten patents, jobs, sucessful reviews, etc. if otherwise.

As far as enjoyment of hobbies, by "measurement junkie" I meant "as warrented" to confirm what I believe is occurring... as a sanity/BS check so to speak

John L.

gedlee · 2014-01-26 8:23 pm

Yes, of course, you have to do some measurements just to prove out what you are doing. But in this case I do not expect good correlation, but that's beside the point. Take for instance the renowned book on "Room Acoustics" by Heinrich Kuttruff. He spends nearly 100 pages on the solutions to rectangular rooms knowing full well that they aren't likely to represent anything in reality. He knows that, the reader knows that, still, one can learn an awful lot from inaccurate models.

markus76 · 2014-01-27 8:29 am

Earl,

Can't install your app:

Code:

PLATFORM VERSION INFO
	Windows 			: 6.2.9200.0 (Win32NT)
	Common Language Runtime 	: 4.0.30319.34003
	System.Deployment.dll 		: 4.0.30319.33440 built by: FX45W81RTMREL
	clr.dll 			: 4.0.30319.34003 built by: FX45W81RTMGDR
	dfdll.dll 			: 4.0.30319.33440 built by: FX45W81RTMREL
	dfshim.dll 			: 6.3.9600.16384 (winblue_rtm.130821-1623)

SOURCES
	Deployment url			: http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application
						Server		: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
						X-Powered-By	: ASP.NET

IDENTITIES
	Deployment Identity		: Modes.application, Version=1.0.0.21, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=317b707a93ea3a48, processorArchitecture=x86

APPLICATION SUMMARY
	* Installable application.

ERROR SUMMARY
	Below is a summary of the errors, details of these errors are listed later in the log.
	* Activation of http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application resulted in exception. Following failure messages were detected:
		+ You cannot start application Room Modes from this location because it is already installed from a different location.
		+ You cannot start application Room Modes from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application it is already installed from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes.application. You can start it from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes.application or you can uninstall it and reinstall it from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application. If you reinstall the application, be aware that you might lose any customizations that you made to the application.

COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION FAILURE SUMMARY
	No transaction error was detected.

WARNINGS
	There were no warnings during this operation.

OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS
	* [27/01/2014 09:24:23] : Activation of http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application has started.
	* [27/01/2014 09:24:23] : Processing of deployment manifest has successfully completed.

ERROR DETAILS
	Following errors were detected during this operation.
	* [27/01/2014 09:24:23] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentException (DeploymentUriDifferent)
		- You cannot start application Room Modes from this location because it is already installed from a different location.
		- Source: System.Deployment
		- Stack trace:
			at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.CheckDeploymentProviderValidity(ActivationDescription actDesc, SubscriptionState subState)
			at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)
			at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)
		--- Inner Exception ---
		System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentException (DeploymentUriDifferent)
		- You cannot start application Room Modes from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application it is already installed from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes.application. You can start it from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes.application or you can uninstall it and reinstall it from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application. If you reinstall the application, be aware that you might lose any customizations that you made to the application.
		- Source: 
		- Stack trace:


COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS
	No transaction information is available.

PLB · 2014-01-27 11:32 am

Hi Earl,

Just to let you know that I was able to get your program to run on two machines, one a desk top and the other a portable, both running XP SP3, down loaded via IE. On running the program, I see that I have a lot to learn from it -- thank you.

BTW, in you post #42, you wrote the following;

" The program will only run on the web site, it cannot be installed locally."

My interpretation of this is that I need an internet connection for this application to run, but I can run it off-line on both of my machines. Is my interpretation correct?

Regards

Peter

gedlee · 2014-01-27 3:12 pm

Hi Peter

It may be possible to run the app off-line, but it cannot be installed from anywhere but the web site.

Hi Markus

That error has to do with your previous installation of the one that did not run. You need to clear the WebCache. If you don't know how to do that I'll look it up and post it here.

If Michael is reading this he told me how to do it, but I don't remember.

speaker dave · 2014-01-27 3:53 pm

I find the curve disappears if I raise the elevation of the speakers. It comes back when I adjust the depth in the room (even if slightly). Otherwise it works very well.

Ability to adjust alpha is a nice touch.

David

pooge · 2014-01-27 4:14 pm

speaker dave said:
I find the curve disappears if I raise the elevation of the speakers. It comes back when I adjust the depth in the room (even if slightly).

You don't have to adjust depth. Just click on listener in the left pane.

pooge · 2014-01-27 4:16 pm

The program appears to require symmetrical positions of the mains with respect to the side walls, unless there's something I haven't found to position the mains independently along the y-axis.

markus76 · 2014-01-27 4:17 pm

gedlee said:
That error has to do with your previous installation of the one that did not run.

Error message says "you can uninstall it and reinstall it from location http://gedlee.com/Application%20Files/Modes/Modes.application". Doesn't work.

gedlee · 2014-01-27 4:24 pm

markus76 said:
Earl,

Can't install your app:

Markus

Here is the solution

"On another note, to clear the ClickOnce cache so you can continue testing. Launch a command prompt with Administrator privs and execute: rundll32 dfshim CleanOnlineAppCache"

gedlee · 2014-01-27 4:28 pm

pooge said:
The program appears to require symmetrical positions of the mains with respect to the side walls, unless there's something I haven't found to position the mains independently along the y-axis.

That is correct. I don't see a situation where you would ever want the mains to not be symmetrical. Its a very bad idea. Its too much trouble making them separate for something that one should not do.

Room Modal Response

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