I am not sure that a comparison is warranted. I would not expect an ideal rectangular room situation to be very close to the real situation because of a multitude of approximations. That is not what the program is for. It is for "guidance" as to where to place subs, how many, that type of thing. Then the final process is to measure the in-situ responses with all the real world variables included and use those measurements for setting the EQ.
I may or may not ever compare my room to the simulation because I just don't expect it to be all that accurate. None of the rectangular room models will be. That's not what they are useful for.
What needs to be understood about simulations is that they are "comparatively accurate and useful" even if not absolutely accurate. This means that moving a woofer from one end of the simulation will be comparatively the same as moving a woofer in a real room from one end to the other even if the absolute predictions are different. Getting into too many details with rough simulations like this is simply not warranted. You need real measurements for final adjustments, but rough simulations for "best guesses" before you actually take the data.
People ask me all the time "where should I put the subs". The best that I can do is guess and any guess that I would make on a random room is going to be far less valuable than actually simulating an "approximate" room. Neither is going to be a substitute for using actual measured data.
I may or may not ever compare my room to the simulation because I just don't expect it to be all that accurate. None of the rectangular room models will be. That's not what they are useful for.
What needs to be understood about simulations is that they are "comparatively accurate and useful" even if not absolutely accurate. This means that moving a woofer from one end of the simulation will be comparatively the same as moving a woofer in a real room from one end to the other even if the absolute predictions are different. Getting into too many details with rough simulations like this is simply not warranted. You need real measurements for final adjustments, but rough simulations for "best guesses" before you actually take the data.
People ask me all the time "where should I put the subs". The best that I can do is guess and any guess that I would make on a random room is going to be far less valuable than actually simulating an "approximate" room. Neither is going to be a substitute for using actual measured data.
Last edited:
Attached is an excerpt from the REW help file containing overview of the Room Simulator.
Possible sound sources are 2 mains + 4 subs.
Thanks that's helpful. Very similar, but not quite as complete as what I am doing. It does not consider how the subs work with the mains nor do I see the "statistics" anywhere. Its "prettier" than mine, but then the REW guy is a programer by profession and I am not. It's hard to know if the math we are using is the same, but that's not a big deal. How one treats absorption and nearfield issues can be.
I did my PhD on this kind of modeling so some things that I do and know are not common knowledge, like the nearfield errors when one uses a modal summation like this. How to handle this is not well know, nor is the error itself actually. But Markus would find that in the REW simulation he will not get anything like what his nearfield subs do in reality. This is because of the nearfield error. Even Welti handled this wrong in his paper as I pointed out in my letter to the editor.
I did my PhD on this kind of modeling so some things that I do and know are not common knowledge, like the nearfield errors when one uses a modal summation like this. How to handle this is not well know, nor is the error itself actually. But Markus would find that in the REW simulation he will not get anything like what his nearfield subs do in reality. This is because of the nearfield error. Even Welti handled this wrong in his paper as I pointed out in my letter to the editor.
Download the software. It's free. b18 which isn't released yet adds some additional features to the room sim.
What I don't understand, how does your software incorporate real data?
Quite correct, does your software handle the near field case correctly? Did you fix the issues that prevent your software to run on any other PC than yours?
I know REW is free, but I just don't have a use for it so why download it.
The software does not incorporate real data at the present. I am not sure it makes sense to do so. I use real data in my other package for finding the EQ values for a MiniDSP to drive multiple subs. It might be possible to meld the two programs, except that I never intended to make the EQ program available. That's going to remain proprietary. The software that I posted is for customers to find good locations for the subs and then they send me the measured data from the real locations and I use the other package to program the MiniDSP (or DCX2496, either one, but they do differ in "Q" definition so I have to know which.)
Customers could use REW that's true, but I didn't realize that it existed. If I had, I might never have done this version. Except that REW doesn't seem to handle the mains blending into the subs and that's pretty important. The statistics and the "power response" (not the complex sum) are quite useful for knowing what the EQ is likely to fix and what it can't fix.
My sim does not yet do the near-field algorithm. I need to get it to run elsewhere first.
I found a computer in my house that is "clean" of my software and it shows me the errors. I am still writing the base code for the sim and some features that I want. When I get that done I'll focus on the web posting. I thought I'd just try it but then I found that the Wizard messed things up pretty bad so I stopped uploading revisions until I can sort out how to get it to post correctly.
The software does not incorporate real data at the present. I am not sure it makes sense to do so. I use real data in my other package for finding the EQ values for a MiniDSP to drive multiple subs. It might be possible to meld the two programs, except that I never intended to make the EQ program available. That's going to remain proprietary. The software that I posted is for customers to find good locations for the subs and then they send me the measured data from the real locations and I use the other package to program the MiniDSP (or DCX2496, either one, but they do differ in "Q" definition so I have to know which.)
Customers could use REW that's true, but I didn't realize that it existed. If I had, I might never have done this version. Except that REW doesn't seem to handle the mains blending into the subs and that's pretty important. The statistics and the "power response" (not the complex sum) are quite useful for knowing what the EQ is likely to fix and what it can't fix.
My sim does not yet do the near-field algorithm. I need to get it to run elsewhere first.
I found a computer in my house that is "clean" of my software and it shows me the errors. I am still writing the base code for the sim and some features that I want. When I get that done I'll focus on the web posting. I thought I'd just try it but then I found that the Wizard messed things up pretty bad so I stopped uploading revisions until I can sort out how to get it to post correctly.
I've found from long experience that placing them in the listening room usually gives the best results.
Outside can work even better. 
Infinite Baffle Subwoofer
Too bad my rooms aren't symmetrical and rectangular. A software like this could save a lot of time. I'll have to stick to moving around and measuring. You got an e-mail Earl by the way.
Infinite Baffle Subwoofer
Too bad my rooms aren't symmetrical and rectangular. A software like this could save a lot of time. I'll have to stick to moving around and measuring. You got an e-mail Earl by the way.
Yea - "Put them in the listening room. Please send me $500."
I don't think that is going to satisfy many people.
Yes, only modal response is shown in REW when listener is near one of the sources.
Thanks
update: Some guy from Microsoft got in touch with me offering help. It turns out that the problem that I was having is well know. It was fixed in Visual Studio 2013, I use VS 2010. The problem is that this new version is not cheap, some $500 for a comparable version. There may be a way to use the free VS Express to make just the VB code and then make the DLL in VS2010 and combine the two manually. I am still looking at this as spending $500 just to solve this problem seems excessive.
update: Some guy from Microsoft got in touch with me offering help. It turns out that the problem that I was having is well know. It was fixed in Visual Studio 2013, I use VS 2010. The problem is that this new version is not cheap, some $500 for a comparable version. There may be a way to use the free VS Express to make just the VB code and then make the DLL in VS2010 and combine the two manually. I am still looking at this as spending $500 just to solve this problem seems excessive.
Hooray!!
It finally works. Several people have run the software on numerous windows machines and it works well.
I have to thanks Mitch Barnett of Microsoft for all his help. This was not an obvious problem. It took a lot of digging to figure it out and Mitch was invaluable!! Thanks Mitch!!
What I would like to do now is to have people share some things that they learn using this app. For example, one thing that I have learned is that any intuition that you think that you have about LFs in a room go right out the window. Because of complex phase interactions things just do not seem to work like I expect them to. Its always an experience checking out your ideas to see how they really work.
To start, here is my room project. (You will have to change the ".txt" to ".prj" or my code won't find it.) It is a readable XML file.
It finally works. Several people have run the software on numerous windows machines and it works well.
I have to thanks Mitch Barnett of Microsoft for all his help. This was not an obvious problem. It took a lot of digging to figure it out and Mitch was invaluable!! Thanks Mitch!!
What I would like to do now is to have people share some things that they learn using this app. For example, one thing that I have learned is that any intuition that you think that you have about LFs in a room go right out the window. Because of complex phase interactions things just do not seem to work like I expect them to. Its always an experience checking out your ideas to see how they really work.
To start, here is my room project. (You will have to change the ".txt" to ".prj" or my code won't find it.) It is a readable XML file.
PLATFORM VERSION INFO
Windows : 6.1.7601.65536 (Win32NT)
Common Language Runtime : 4.0.30319.18408
System.Deployment.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
clr.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
dfdll.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
dfshim.dll : 4.0.41209.0 (Main.041209-0000)
SOURCES
Deployment url : file:///C:/DL/Speaker%20Design/Geddes/Room%20modes/Modes.application
ERROR SUMMARY
Below is a summary of the errors, details of these errors are listed later in the log.
* Activation of C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application resulted in exception. Following failure messages were detected:
+ Downloading file:///C:/DL/Speaker Design/Geddes/Room modes/Modes.application did not succeed.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION FAILURE SUMMARY
No transaction error was detected.
WARNINGS
There were no warnings during this operation.
OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS
* [1/25/2014 9:52:53 AM] : Activation of C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application has started.
ERROR DETAILS
Following errors were detected during this operation.
* [1/25/2014 9:52:53 AM] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentDownloadException (Unknown subtype)
- Downloading file:///C:/DL/Speaker Design/Geddes/Room modes/Modes.application did not succeed.
- Source: System.Deployment
- Stack trace:
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadAllFiles()
at System.Deployment.Application.FileDownloader.Download(SubscriptionState subState)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadManifestAsRawFile(Uri& sourceUri, String targetPath, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadDeploymentManifestDirectBypass(SubscriptionStore subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadDeploymentManifestBypass(SubscriptionStore subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.EndGetResponse(IAsyncResult asyncResult)
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.GetResponse()
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.FileWebResponse..ctor(FileWebRequest request, Uri uri, FileAccess access, Boolean asyncHint)
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.GetResponseCallback(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.IO.FileNotFoundException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: mscorlib
- Stack trace:
at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError(Int32 errorCode, String maybeFullPath)
at System.IO.FileStream.Init(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, Int32 rights, Boolean useRights, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES secAttrs, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy, Boolean useLongPath, Boolean checkHost)
at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy)
at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, Boolean useAsync)
at System.Net.FileWebStream..ctor(FileWebRequest request, String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare sharing, Int32 length, Boolean async)
at System.Net.FileWebResponse..ctor(FileWebRequest request, Uri uri, FileAccess access, Boolean asyncHint)
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS
No transaction information is available.
-------------------------------------
ERG_Room.prj file is in the same folder as setup.exe
Windows : 6.1.7601.65536 (Win32NT)
Common Language Runtime : 4.0.30319.18408
System.Deployment.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
clr.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
dfdll.dll : 4.0.30319.18408 built by: FX451RTMGREL
dfshim.dll : 4.0.41209.0 (Main.041209-0000)
SOURCES
Deployment url : file:///C:/DL/Speaker%20Design/Geddes/Room%20modes/Modes.application
ERROR SUMMARY
Below is a summary of the errors, details of these errors are listed later in the log.
* Activation of C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application resulted in exception. Following failure messages were detected:
+ Downloading file:///C:/DL/Speaker Design/Geddes/Room modes/Modes.application did not succeed.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
+ Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION FAILURE SUMMARY
No transaction error was detected.
WARNINGS
There were no warnings during this operation.
OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS
* [1/25/2014 9:52:53 AM] : Activation of C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application has started.
ERROR DETAILS
Following errors were detected during this operation.
* [1/25/2014 9:52:53 AM] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentDownloadException (Unknown subtype)
- Downloading file:///C:/DL/Speaker Design/Geddes/Room modes/Modes.application did not succeed.
- Source: System.Deployment
- Stack trace:
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadAllFiles()
at System.Deployment.Application.FileDownloader.Download(SubscriptionState subState)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadManifestAsRawFile(Uri& sourceUri, String targetPath, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadDeploymentManifestDirectBypass(SubscriptionStore subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options, ServerInformation& serverInformation)
at System.Deployment.Application.DownloadManager.DownloadDeploymentManifestBypass(SubscriptionStore subStore, Uri& sourceUri, TempFile& tempFile, SubscriptionState& subState, IDownloadNotification notification, DownloadOptions options)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)
at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.EndGetResponse(IAsyncResult asyncResult)
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.GetResponse()
at System.Deployment.Application.SystemNetDownloader.DownloadSingleFile(DownloadQueueItem next)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.Net.WebException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: System
- Stack trace:
at System.Net.FileWebResponse..ctor(FileWebRequest request, Uri uri, FileAccess access, Boolean asyncHint)
at System.Net.FileWebRequest.GetResponseCallback(Object state)
--- Inner Exception ---
System.IO.FileNotFoundException
- Could not find file 'C:\DL\Speaker Design\Geddes\Room modes\Modes.application'.
- Source: mscorlib
- Stack trace:
at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError(Int32 errorCode, String maybeFullPath)
at System.IO.FileStream.Init(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, Int32 rights, Boolean useRights, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES secAttrs, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy, Boolean useLongPath, Boolean checkHost)
at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy)
at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, Boolean useAsync)
at System.Net.FileWebStream..ctor(FileWebRequest request, String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare sharing, Int32 length, Boolean async)
at System.Net.FileWebResponse..ctor(FileWebRequest request, Uri uri, FileAccess access, Boolean asyncHint)
COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS
No transaction information is available.
-------------------------------------
ERG_Room.prj file is in the same folder as setup.exe
Greebster
The program cannot be downloaded and run locally if that is what you tried to do. You can only run it through the web installation program at my web site. If that did not work then I am not clear why except that no one else has tried it on an XP machine. It is obvious that not all the required files were available.
The program cannot be downloaded and run locally if that is what you tried to do. You can only run it through the web installation program at my web site. If that did not work then I am not clear why except that no one else has tried it on an XP machine. It is obvious that not all the required files were available.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.