Both the plinths I have were actually made by counter top fabricators in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam from drawings I made for a friend who lived there at the time.
The unbroken one is quite lovely imo, and the cracked one which I spent several arduous hours epoxying back together works quite well even if its looks leave a little to be desired.. lol
I would be very careful about polishing the spindle, you want to remove as little material as possible, by the time you completely remove the score marks IMO you will have removed enough material to compromise the rotational stability of the spindle. (Bearings with a smaller ID would then be required to restore proper operating clearances.) I believe all you should be doing is removing the sharp edges..
The various pulleys in the drive mechanism should respond well to various metal polishes and I suspect that here in the U.S. some of the Meguiars products would work well - just be sure to remove any residue to avoid potential slippage issues.
The unbroken one is quite lovely imo, and the cracked one which I spent several arduous hours epoxying back together works quite well even if its looks leave a little to be desired.. lol
I would be very careful about polishing the spindle, you want to remove as little material as possible, by the time you completely remove the score marks IMO you will have removed enough material to compromise the rotational stability of the spindle. (Bearings with a smaller ID would then be required to restore proper operating clearances.) I believe all you should be doing is removing the sharp edges..
The various pulleys in the drive mechanism should respond well to various metal polishes and I suspect that here in the U.S. some of the Meguiars products would work well - just be sure to remove any residue to avoid potential slippage issues.
Hello kevinkr,
Good to see your new plinth in service. From the pictures, it looks like the plinth is made up of 4 slabs. What's the thickness? Does each slab have the same internal contour or do they conform to the profile of the TT 'guts'?
I see you are still using your SME 3009. What ever happened to the 12" SME mod you were working on? I'm curious to know how it compares with your Schick.
Regards,
David
Good to see your new plinth in service. From the pictures, it looks like the plinth is made up of 4 slabs. What's the thickness? Does each slab have the same internal contour or do they conform to the profile of the TT 'guts'?
I see you are still using your SME 3009. What ever happened to the 12" SME mod you were working on? I'm curious to know how it compares with your Schick.
Regards,
David
Hi David,
The slate is approximately 2cm thick (0.8") and in fact there are in fact two different internal cut outs, the top two are cut as per the Thorens drawing and the bottom two retain material in the forward half the arm cut out area..
Moving the second table into the cracked slate plinth is the first step towards getting the 3012 clone into service. It is a good arm, I have not been able to do a lot of listening with it, but I expect it will not match the Schick in terms of bass control, overall lack of coloration, or resolution, but I expect it will still be a nice improvement over the 3009.
The slate is approximately 2cm thick (0.8") and in fact there are in fact two different internal cut outs, the top two are cut as per the Thorens drawing and the bottom two retain material in the forward half the arm cut out area..
Moving the second table into the cracked slate plinth is the first step towards getting the 3012 clone into service. It is a good arm, I have not been able to do a lot of listening with it, but I expect it will not match the Schick in terms of bass control, overall lack of coloration, or resolution, but I expect it will still be a nice improvement over the 3009.
Totally agree with you, Kevinkr. Mirror finishes are nice to behold, but the idea is to reduce anything that might contribute to vibration. Removing sharp edges is about all I'd consider doing. I've got a line on a machine shop that may be able to help me with stuff I'm just not set up to do, just have to take the time to go over and make contact.
a few words of encouragement to all...
...
As I don't own a Thorens anything (but have and wished I had never gotten rid of my 2nd turntable, a TD146), please take my generalized comments as you wish (it's unlikely any will offend). But I've had a pretty keen interest in turntables of all sorts for a very long time and have commented within this thread from time to time. So here I go again.
One thing I am always interested in is the reduction of both mechanical and electrical noise from within an analog playback system. trix1985 did a few measurements of the noise coming from his turntable via a microphone and Audacity that I think are quite instructive. Firstly domestic AC is far from being "unmeasurable" as some suggest. Secondly there are other noises coming from our turntables, and those could be electrically self induced, purely mechanical or other electrical noise from the motor or the supporting structure(s). I think his method is perfectly valid for this type of work.
So what can one do? Active filtering could be one answer. Get a mini-dsp (they advertise here on diyaudio.com) or similar. Invert the recorded waveform and transfer that to the mini-dsp. Run the phono plugs into the dsp, and then out to a phono stage. Now compare the electrical output with and without the dsp. There should be an improvement.
Another would be to generate a pure sinewave at 50Hz, and amplify it using a transformer (if required) and an amp of reasonable quality, but capable of sufficient current to drive the motor. Increase the output until sufficient voltage is obtained. Record the noise in precisely the same manner astrix1985. Now do a comparison between the recordings. I think one would find that the noise output would be significantly reduced.
That would then leave the mechanical and electrical resonances of the motor/turntable plinth. Chase as far as you wish...
trix1985's method is what the diy'er can be capable of with but a microphone and some free software. Now imagine how much better many of the products we lust after could have been had the designers and manufacturers had these tools to begin with. It still amazes me that many of the "old" stuff sounds as good as it does. It is easy to demonstrate how much better they can become by addressing these problems. If you're reading this thread, then you already have that understanding.
Anybody that suggests that it is a waste of time improving vintage pieces (most especially electro-mechanical pieces like loudspeakers and turntables, but even purely electronic ones) ought to look at the basic components of these pieces and do minor electrical changes (such as using modern capacitors, resistors, etc). These simple changes (just a part for part substitution) can be significant, while modern upgrades (as in quality of these components) can be startling.
This is what separates enthusiasts and hobbyists from the rest. It is a worthy pursuit.
...
As I don't own a Thorens anything (but have and wished I had never gotten rid of my 2nd turntable, a TD146), please take my generalized comments as you wish (it's unlikely any will offend). But I've had a pretty keen interest in turntables of all sorts for a very long time and have commented within this thread from time to time. So here I go again.
One thing I am always interested in is the reduction of both mechanical and electrical noise from within an analog playback system. trix1985 did a few measurements of the noise coming from his turntable via a microphone and Audacity that I think are quite instructive. Firstly domestic AC is far from being "unmeasurable" as some suggest. Secondly there are other noises coming from our turntables, and those could be electrically self induced, purely mechanical or other electrical noise from the motor or the supporting structure(s). I think his method is perfectly valid for this type of work.
So what can one do? Active filtering could be one answer. Get a mini-dsp (they advertise here on diyaudio.com) or similar. Invert the recorded waveform and transfer that to the mini-dsp. Run the phono plugs into the dsp, and then out to a phono stage. Now compare the electrical output with and without the dsp. There should be an improvement.
Another would be to generate a pure sinewave at 50Hz, and amplify it using a transformer (if required) and an amp of reasonable quality, but capable of sufficient current to drive the motor. Increase the output until sufficient voltage is obtained. Record the noise in precisely the same manner astrix1985. Now do a comparison between the recordings. I think one would find that the noise output would be significantly reduced.
That would then leave the mechanical and electrical resonances of the motor/turntable plinth. Chase as far as you wish...
trix1985's method is what the diy'er can be capable of with but a microphone and some free software. Now imagine how much better many of the products we lust after could have been had the designers and manufacturers had these tools to begin with. It still amazes me that many of the "old" stuff sounds as good as it does. It is easy to demonstrate how much better they can become by addressing these problems. If you're reading this thread, then you already have that understanding.
Anybody that suggests that it is a waste of time improving vintage pieces (most especially electro-mechanical pieces like loudspeakers and turntables, but even purely electronic ones) ought to look at the basic components of these pieces and do minor electrical changes (such as using modern capacitors, resistors, etc). These simple changes (just a part for part substitution) can be significant, while modern upgrades (as in quality of these components) can be startling.
This is what separates enthusiasts and hobbyists from the rest. It is a worthy pursuit.
Nanook - I won't pretend I totally follow all you said regarding means of tracking down electrical noise, although since I have no trouble with Audacity in spotting a power spike at 60hz, along with several harmonics, I'm not one who would ever argue that domestic AC is "unmeasurable." It's there, I've seen it, and I've wondered whether simply investing in a power conditioner would do anything to combat it. I should say my spikes are most apparent when I amplify a sample taken with the motor running, but stylus at rest. During playback, they're there I'm sure, but well below the noise floor - not that I'm opposed to dropping them further, mind you.
What I don't get from what you've said is how in a real-life listening environment (my living room, as opposed to on a shop bench) one would implement anything that would provide a sonic improvement based on the tests you proposed. I'm not opposed to adding another box/module/whatever to my main system, but if it's not going to make an appreciable difference ("appreciable" in my house is something my wife can appreciate, one she hear, not one I tell her is worth it)
With respect to my TD 124/II, I'm in the early stages of rebuilding it. This particular turntable is functional, but probably best described as barely so. It seems to have been pretty well cared for, but the years have taken their toll on bearings, bushings, rubber grommets and the like. My guess is just doing the basics is going to do a lot more for me at this point than anything else that might be fun to experiment with.
What I don't get from what you've said is how in a real-life listening environment (my living room, as opposed to on a shop bench) one would implement anything that would provide a sonic improvement based on the tests you proposed. I'm not opposed to adding another box/module/whatever to my main system, but if it's not going to make an appreciable difference ("appreciable" in my house is something my wife can appreciate, one she hear, not one I tell her is worth it)
With respect to my TD 124/II, I'm in the early stages of rebuilding it. This particular turntable is functional, but probably best described as barely so. It seems to have been pretty well cared for, but the years have taken their toll on bearings, bushings, rubber grommets and the like. My guess is just doing the basics is going to do a lot more for me at this point than anything else that might be fun to experiment with.
real-life listening environments...
missouricatman: What I was proposing is effectively adding the inverse of the recording of the noise (as a frequency spectrum) of a measurement such as those taken by trix1985 to the low level output of the cartridge before entering a phono stage or even after (at the correct level) to "null" the noise spectrum or subtract the noise spectrum from signal. This is a "brute force" suggestion: it doesn't address the cause of the noise, it just removes the symptoms.
Doing the basics and minor changes can result in an amazing transformation. At some point one needs to realize where good enough is for themselves, and what the possible improvements are if one follows an existing recipe. Refurbishing and/or replacing the rubber parts, cleaning and lubricating the main bearing and bushings, motor bushings, etc., is always the first place to start in any project.
.
missouricatman: What I was proposing is effectively adding the inverse of the recording of the noise (as a frequency spectrum) of a measurement such as those taken by trix1985 to the low level output of the cartridge before entering a phono stage or even after (at the correct level) to "null" the noise spectrum or subtract the noise spectrum from signal. This is a "brute force" suggestion: it doesn't address the cause of the noise, it just removes the symptoms.
Doing the basics and minor changes can result in an amazing transformation. At some point one needs to realize where good enough is for themselves, and what the possible improvements are if one follows an existing recipe. Refurbishing and/or replacing the rubber parts, cleaning and lubricating the main bearing and bushings, motor bushings, etc., is always the first place to start in any project.
And a proper running TD-124 in the proper plinth is quiet enough - generally below the cutter noise floor in my limited experience so that nothing further is required.
It's a matter of what the dominant noise source is, and I've found it is usually the recording, not the TD-124.. I had the use an SME 20 for a while which is substantially quieter than the TD-124 in measurements and practice, but it did not leave me with the impression that the 124 was not quiet enough to do the job just an unobtrusively in use.
It's a matter of what the dominant noise source is, and I've found it is usually the recording, not the TD-124.. I had the use an SME 20 for a while which is substantially quieter than the TD-124 in measurements and practice, but it did not leave me with the impression that the 124 was not quiet enough to do the job just an unobtrusively in use.
My TD124 is quieter than my Garrard 301, but it depends upon the tonearm configuration. In my experience, it is possible to get the TD124 to be amazingly quiet, or annoyingly noisy, depending upon which tonearm I am using, and how it is set up.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll manage to get the 301 to be quiet, as well.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll manage to get the 301 to be quiet, as well.
kevinkr - While I've not experienced a restored TD 124 yet, my experience recording from the much more noisy Dual 1219 has taught me quite a bit, since part of my routine is to pull a spectrogram on every recording so I can decide how much to roll off the low end. I've got some idea of where the noise floor of the turntable is, but generally the vinyl is above it and the difference between the best and worst vinyl is well, huge, as I'm sure you know. That's not to say the turntable rumble isn't an issue. it is, regardless of whether I can see it on a spectrogram.
Because I often pull spectrograms at lead-in, mid-point, and run-out, I'm pretty familiar with how much worse that first :30 can be compared to the rest of the disk and can certainly understand why many use a stabilizer ring - something I can't employ on the Dual.
There was a time when I tried using a noise filter instead of a low shelf filter, but there's simply too much variation for it to be very effective and it certainly can mess with the music in some very unpleasant ways.
While I am using a low-shelf filter, my hope is to get the TD 124 to the point where it's not necessary. I'm of the opinion that any vibration that makes it to the stylus introduces distortion that is there to stay, that no filter or noise canceling effect downstream is going to correct.
Because I often pull spectrograms at lead-in, mid-point, and run-out, I'm pretty familiar with how much worse that first :30 can be compared to the rest of the disk and can certainly understand why many use a stabilizer ring - something I can't employ on the Dual.
There was a time when I tried using a noise filter instead of a low shelf filter, but there's simply too much variation for it to be very effective and it certainly can mess with the music in some very unpleasant ways.
While I am using a low-shelf filter, my hope is to get the TD 124 to the point where it's not necessary. I'm of the opinion that any vibration that makes it to the stylus introduces distortion that is there to stay, that no filter or noise canceling effect downstream is going to correct.
Nanook - looking at your initial posting, perhaps the problem here is that you might view me as a "hobbyist" not an "enthusiast." It's difficult for me to justify the money I put into my "hobby" as it is - what with the number of home remodeling projects underway here. Another bit of evidence that I'm not an "enthusiast" is that despite having several replacement components for the TD124/II sitting in bags on a bench in the basement, I've yet to install them. Nor have I replaced the motor I purchased for my Dual 1249 (the original design's prone to failure). Then there's the Dual 1228 I picked up that likely only needs a cleaning/lube job before I could pass it on to someone who would appreciate it more than I might. I could go on and on, but the point is while I do have aspirations, I've got only so much ambition and more importantly, only so much money to put into such things.
Hi,
The rubber mounting bushes "mushrooms" on my TD124 have become hard. I was thinking of ordering from Schopper when a friend mentioned these silicone isolation bushes available on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917
Has anyone tried these?Would these be an improvement over the original type "mushrooms" sold by Schopper?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917
Regards
Rajiv
The rubber mounting bushes "mushrooms" on my TD124 have become hard. I was thinking of ordering from Schopper when a friend mentioned these silicone isolation bushes available on Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917
Has anyone tried these?Would these be an improvement over the original type "mushrooms" sold by Schopper?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917
Regards
Rajiv
There are a number of good motor mount bushings available on eBay. I have used several different suppliers all with generally similar results, all are much less expensive than Schopper.
There are also a number of suppliers on eBay of the chassis mounting bushings (mushrooms) most have not proven to be that satisfactory - here the Schopper bushings may be worth the money.
The links you provided don't work here so I can't look at what you were asking about.
There are also a number of suppliers on eBay of the chassis mounting bushings (mushrooms) most have not proven to be that satisfactory - here the Schopper bushings may be worth the money.
The links you provided don't work here so I can't look at what you were asking about.
Are the bushings/mushrooms the ones with the ebay title "Thorens TD-124 Improved Plinth Mushrooms/Grommets?" The ones sold out of Pennsylvania? I've looked at them and wondered myself if they'd provide any advantage. Certainly a very different design from the original - four components instead of two, if you count the metal cap.
Hi Rajiv,
as Kevin already said, there are many suppliers of those mushrooms; I've personally replaced mine with a set bought from a German shop on ebay. They fit well to the chassis and make a good job. Next month I will get a new set of gel bushing, the Geltec A-2 and I will try them on my chassis. The opinions about their efficiency are many: some people did get a big improvement in the isolation of vibration due to the motor, some did not appreciate any difference.
Cheers
Maurizio
P.S. Always in May I will receive a new idler wheel for the TD 124, designed from a supplier in Rome. I will post some information about it, if you're interested.
as Kevin already said, there are many suppliers of those mushrooms; I've personally replaced mine with a set bought from a German shop on ebay. They fit well to the chassis and make a good job. Next month I will get a new set of gel bushing, the Geltec A-2 and I will try them on my chassis. The opinions about their efficiency are many: some people did get a big improvement in the isolation of vibration due to the motor, some did not appreciate any difference.
Cheers
Maurizio
P.S. Always in May I will receive a new idler wheel for the TD 124, designed from a supplier in Rome. I will post some information about it, if you're interested.