Hi dvh99,
These days I am using an SPU on a Schick transcription length arm in place of the ZU and 3009 Series II combination and prefer it strongly.
The 3009 Series III is designed for high compliance low mass cartridges and would not be a good match for the ZU or any of the DL-103 family even with a heavier or additional counter weight. Some of the better Nagaoka MM (200/300) cartridges would be worth a look.
The 3009 Series II is a marginal match for the ZU in terms of the resulting resonant frequency which seems to be below the optimum zone. The 3009 S2 improved is too light and is designed for very high compliance MM cartridges - not compatible at all.
One of the better Jelco arms might frankly be a better match for the ZU..
Other cartridges to consider would be the Denon 301, 304 MCs - both relatively regularly available on eBay.. The AT33PTG might be another good alternative, but it is also fairly low compliance and not a match for an S3..
I found that the ZU offered a lot of bang for the buck, but the conical stylus's performance left me unsatisfied - certain records exhibited excessive sibilants, and HF tracking in general was just OK.. I have several elliptical MC on hand including the SPU and a DL-103D, both are considerably better in this regard. The SPU is just better period..
Parts available from jec965 or sq38s on eBay - I have purchased from both with no problems. Schopper is the original supplier to this market, and offers very high quality parts at premium prices - unfortunately I have not been able to purchase any so I cannot attest to their merit.
Note that if you buy one of the many bearing cap upgrades be sure to get one that uses thrust plates, all of those "gun metal" and bronze ones will be unsatisfactory without a steel or nylatron thrust plate for the ball to ride on. (Soft metals will wear and deform quickly) Note also that in many cases a badly thought out bearing cap will make it impossible to adjust the clutch mechanism properly.
I use the current SPU GM E MKII which is rather nice.. Note that these cartridges do require arms like the Schick, SME 3012, Series II or one of the Ortofon high mass arms to perform their best. You would be talking an investment north of $3K for something like the set up I am currently using including Lundahl step up transformers, and not including the plinth and TT - which while I feel is completely worthwhile, you may feel differently about. I did it in stages which is the only way I could afford to do so.
What is your budget, there are a lot of very good options out there that don't have to cost a fortune.
Take a look at these: "http://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/e_tone_arm.htm"
Of particular interest are the SA-750E and SA-750L. I would avoid the less expensive 250 series.. The SA-750L with something like the DL-103SA might be a very nice combination as an example, and represents a pretty big step up from the standard DL-103 and its derivatives on an SME 3009...
i bet that is a nice combo for 3k and up excluding the tt.
take into account that i will have to make myself a phono pre too(john broskie design) and get a step up transformer of course, plus buy a thorens or even a luxman pd444 which is on ebay right now for 1000 euro and get a tonearm plus cartridge and maybe do some restoration, that i will most certainly am looking at 3k or more too.
this all will be done in steps cause i don`t have that kind of cash to spend.
i rather buy the best money can buy instead of going cheaper and replace it with better parts later on and sell the lesser parts at a loss or even worse, be stuck with it.
if this means i will have to wait 6 months before i can play vinyl again, so be it.
cheers,
dennis
take into account that i will have to make myself a phono pre too(john broskie design) and get a step up transformer of course, plus buy a thorens or even a luxman pd444 which is on ebay right now for 1000 euro and get a tonearm plus cartridge and maybe do some restoration, that i will most certainly am looking at 3k or more too.
this all will be done in steps cause i don`t have that kind of cash to spend.
i rather buy the best money can buy instead of going cheaper and replace it with better parts later on and sell the lesser parts at a loss or even worse, be stuck with it.
if this means i will have to wait 6 months before i can play vinyl again, so be it.
cheers,
dennis
Sorry to brag, but I'm kinda proud of this one.
I don't want to hijack Kevin's thread but wanted to show you guys the result of my restoration.
I bought this tt last winter from an older gentleman who was moving out of his house and into a smaller appartment. The tt was very dirty and not functionning.
Thanks to the help of Kevin and others (The Analog Dept.), I've managed to refurb this tt all by myself, except for the tonearm, which I sent to Alfred Kayser (SME Tonearms in Barrie, ON) for a complete rewire and rebuild.
Things done to the tt:
-motor rebuild
-improved motor suspension installed
-main bearing and thrustplate upgraded
-strobe lamp replaced
-main platter rubber discs upgraded
-new bubble level installed
-completely disassembled, cleaned, relubed and polished
Motor comes to speed in about 2-3 minutes with minute adjustments, platter spins for about 2min40sec. when powered off, completely silent...
Here are some before and after shots:
(don't mind the washer on the headshell...waiting for original lead counterweights )
Thanks for looking!
EDIT: sorry! not able to post pics... maybe too big? will try later.
I don't want to hijack Kevin's thread but wanted to show you guys the result of my restoration.
I bought this tt last winter from an older gentleman who was moving out of his house and into a smaller appartment. The tt was very dirty and not functionning.
Thanks to the help of Kevin and others (The Analog Dept.), I've managed to refurb this tt all by myself, except for the tonearm, which I sent to Alfred Kayser (SME Tonearms in Barrie, ON) for a complete rewire and rebuild.
Things done to the tt:
-motor rebuild
-improved motor suspension installed
-main bearing and thrustplate upgraded
-strobe lamp replaced
-main platter rubber discs upgraded
-new bubble level installed
-completely disassembled, cleaned, relubed and polished
Motor comes to speed in about 2-3 minutes with minute adjustments, platter spins for about 2min40sec. when powered off, completely silent...
Here are some before and after shots:
(don't mind the washer on the headshell...waiting for original lead counterweights )
Thanks for looking!
EDIT: sorry! not able to post pics... maybe too big? will try later.
You'll need to resize them - I generally resize to 800 x 600 and post them directly to the forum.. Can't wait to see them..
The cast iron platter I mentioned in a previous post arrived a couple of days ago, and this morning I picked it up from the post office.. Tonight I will install it and once I have some thoughts will report back..
My biggest concern is that the iron platter may not be fully compatible with the SPU, I've read all sorts of conflicting reports about magnetic attraction between the magnet in MC cartridges to the platter - everything from its a non-issue to it's an absolute disaster.. I don't expect a disaster, but I do expect I might need to slightly adjust the tracking force.
My biggest concern is that the iron platter may not be fully compatible with the SPU, I've read all sorts of conflicting reports about magnetic attraction between the magnet in MC cartridges to the platter - everything from its a non-issue to it's an absolute disaster..
I don't expect a disaster, but I do expect I might need to slightly adjust the tracking force.
The cast iron platter I mentioned in a previous post arrived a couple of days ago, and this morning I picked it up from the post office.. Tonight I will install it and once I have some thoughts will report back..
My biggest concern is that the iron platter may not be fully compatible with the SPU, I've read all sorts of conflicting reports about magnetic attraction between the magnet in MC cartridges to the platter - everything from its a non-issue to it's an absolute disaster..
I should think that if there is some slight attraction between spu and iron flywheel, it should be constant across the arc path of the stylus.
Can you think of any means to determine if in fact there is some pull between the two components?
-Steve
I installed the new platter tonight, I left the original spindle on the platter as it seems to be in very good shape.. A couple of interesting observations (maybe ) I measured the VTF with the zamac platter and then the iron platter, the difference in tracking force was probably well within the experimental error budget.. So at least with the SPU the suck down onto the platter scenario is a myth.. The mat which is a Merill - Scillia is if anything slightly thinner than the stock mat..
The clutch needed major adjustment, and I have a little tweaking to do when I have more time. Right now it is not hitting the new platter, and works but I think it might be dragging on the new geltec pads I installed.. (Jec965) So a proper set up is in order..
The additional mass seems to have reached the limit of the available traction from the idler pulley, it takes much longer to come up to speed. I did clean the intermediate pulley and idler. It coasts forever..
It is significantly quieter mechanically both in the close up listening test and noise floor which if anything has dropped further.. Somehow it is "blacker" sounding. Overall the changes are towards a slightly drier, somewhat darker presentation.. It does sound ever so slightly cleaner, and there might be more detail, and depth. Bass is better controlled.. On the whole it sounds a bit more laid back than with the zamac platter..
Overall a definite improvement, but only worthwhile I suspect for someone who has invested a significant amount of coin in sorting the table.. More tweaking is required as the slight change in height has probably affected VTA..
) I measured the VTF with the zamac platter and then the iron platter, the difference in tracking force was probably well within the experimental error budget.. So at least with the SPU the suck down onto the platter scenario is a myth.. The mat which is a Merill - Scillia is if anything slightly thinner than the stock mat..The clutch needed major adjustment, and I have a little tweaking to do when I have more time. Right now it is not hitting the new platter, and works but I think it might be dragging on the new geltec pads I installed.. (Jec965) So a proper set up is in order..
The additional mass seems to have reached the limit of the available traction from the idler pulley, it takes much longer to come up to speed. I did clean the intermediate pulley and idler. It coasts forever..
It is significantly quieter mechanically both in the close up listening test and noise floor which if anything has dropped further.. Somehow it is "blacker" sounding. Overall the changes are towards a slightly drier, somewhat darker presentation.. It does sound ever so slightly cleaner, and there might be more detail, and depth. Bass is better controlled.. On the whole it sounds a bit more laid back than with the zamac platter..
Overall a definite improvement, but only worthwhile I suspect for someone who has invested a significant amount of coin in sorting the table.. More tweaking is required as the slight change in height has probably affected VTA..
I measured the VTF before and after the installation and it differed only very slightly..
What is more concerning is it is suddenly no longer able to maintain the correct speed. Not sure what is going on, but as I was playing a record it just suddenly stopped.. New problem, sigh.. The idler which has worked fine until now is acting up..
Logically, if the only thing that was changed is the iron platter then there must be something about it that is giving trouble to the rest of the components.
Perhaps the inside ring surface, (the surface that is driven by the idler tire), is in need of cleaning and causes the idler tire to slip/skid. Alcohol works here. I would avoid using any hot solvents that might melt the green paint of the flywheel.
or
idler bracket adjustment shifted during installation of the new iron platter
or
inside diameter of driven rim of the iron platter is different than that of the alloy flywheel that has been in use.
--just thinking out loud via keyboard--
-Steve
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kevinkr... great to see your TD124 coming along
kevin:
As I haven't been following this thread, perhaps some of this has already been mentioned. So here's my list of all things idler to check if traction seems to be a problem:
kevin:
As I haven't been following this thread, perhaps some of this has already been mentioned. So here's my list of all things idler to check if traction seems to be a problem:
- make sure the idler and idler shaft are absolutely spotless
- lubricate with an appropriate oil or grease (not sure if the TD124 uses grease on the idler)
- if grease is used, please do yourself a huge favour and head to a bicycle shop. Buy the smallest tube of "Bullshot" (a brand) high performance bicycle grease. OOPs, just realised that it is no longer available. Perhaps Phil Wood's bearing grease, or any other good bicycle bearing grease intended for wet use. I only suggest this because you can buy it in small quantities.
- check to ensure that the tension spring for the idler is intact and in good condition. A new one can be had, or create a means of manually adjusting
- if the idler is not a new one or you have not refurbished it, then do so. I use Protectant 303 (a brand) to do this. Another option is dish detergent or General Motors silicon emulsion (used to renew weather stripping).
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A small quantity of oil somehow ended up on the bottom of the idler where I could not see it, this was the root of the mischief..
I suppose that occurred when I was adjusting the top platter clutch assembly last night - no spindle in the bearing housing and lots of oil to leak out, I didn't see it happen, but it is the only place it could have come from..
I cleaned the idler pulley this morning, and the intermediate pulley and the platter running surface just to make sure that if the oil had spread that it was subsequently removed.
Properly adjusted the clutch assembly. Interestingly the cast platter sits about 0.1" lower than the zamac platter which means the whole thing needed to be tweaked. Enough range to assure that the upper platter is off of the dots, and little enough to assure that no part of the mechanism touches the platter - I now know why I have seen so many platters with damage on the strobe area - due I suspect to a mis-adjusted clutch..
Music spinning afternoon starts soon, lunch done, now to clean up after the gym.. Will report back later.
I suppose that occurred when I was adjusting the top platter clutch assembly last night - no spindle in the bearing housing and lots of oil to leak out, I didn't see it happen, but it is the only place it could have come from..
I cleaned the idler pulley this morning, and the intermediate pulley and the platter running surface just to make sure that if the oil had spread that it was subsequently removed.
Properly adjusted the clutch assembly. Interestingly the cast platter sits about 0.1" lower than the zamac platter which means the whole thing needed to be tweaked. Enough range to assure that the upper platter is off of the dots, and little enough to assure that no part of the mechanism touches the platter - I now know why I have seen so many platters with damage on the strobe area - due I suspect to a mis-adjusted clutch..
Music spinning afternoon starts soon, lunch done, now to clean up after the gym.. Will report back later.
All good points to be aware of, not the problem here as the table is fully restored. The issue is that I stupidly got some oil on the idler pulley..
I was in a rush to try it, and allowed some lubricant from the bearing well to escape - normally not a big deal, but I didn't notice it.I own two of these tables, one fully restored, and one partially as I find the parts (it's running too). I've restored a couple of pre 1960 TD-124/I for friends as well. I am quite thrilled with mine 99% of the time, and these days other than the occasional upgrade it just runs, and runs and runs..
A small quantity of oil somehow ended up on the bottom of the idler where I could not see it, this was the root of the mischief..
I suppose that occurred when I was adjusting the top platter clutch assembly last night - no spindle in the bearing housing and lots of oil to leak out, I didn't see it happen, but it is the only place it could have come from..
I cleaned the idler pulley this morning, and the intermediate pulley and the platter running surface just to make sure that if the oil had spread that it was subsequently removed.
Properly adjusted the clutch assembly. Interestingly the cast platter sits about 0.1" lower than the zamac platter which means the whole thing needed to be tweaked. Enough range to assure that the upper platter is off of the dots, and little enough to assure that no part of the mechanism touches the platter - I now know why I have seen so many platters with damage on the strobe area - due I suspect to a mis-adjusted clutch..
Music spinning afternoon starts soon, lunch done, now to clean up after the gym.. Will report back later.
That sounds about right. A little bearing oil on the idler tire will render the TT inoperable.
Good notes for all readers following this thread to benefit by.
-Steve
Most of all I should know better.. I've consulted on a number of these and restored 4..
It's been running for several hours without problem, start up is just very slightly slower than with the zamac platter, taking something like a revolution to get up to speed.. Interestingly changing to this new platter has allowed me to ease off on the eddy current brake just slightly, I suspect the difference in the running surface has increased frictional losses just a little.
It has substantially changed the character of the sound - bearing in mind that the platter is the only thing that changed. (I'm even using my original spindle) It is much darker sounding, considering the fact that I am using Merrill - Scillia mat this comes as something of a surprise on top of a stock upper platter.. The bottom end is extraordinarily solid, almost frightening in fact on the right material. This is probably another step towards a more neutral presentation overall.. Noise levels if anything are even lower, and the table was pretty quiet before.. The changes are subtle and my belief is that this upgrade is only worthwhile if everything else is in order, a Merrill - Scillia mat will get you about 95% of the way there with a zamac platter, the last 5% may not be to everyone's taste and isn't inexpensive with a significant number of adjustments being required to use the platter..
I also replaced the original pads on the platter with a set of Jec965s geltec pads as the original get hard as rock..
There is definitely something missing and I like it!
I'm referring to an apparently subtle coloration from the zamac platter which is now gone, and that I thought was sufficiently tamed by the mat I'm using, perhaps though it wasn't.. It's not like there is more detail or better imaging, or something I can exactly put my finger on - more like something removed. It's just a subtly cleaner sounding..
I'm referring to an apparently subtle coloration from the zamac platter which is now gone, and that I thought was sufficiently tamed by the mat I'm using, perhaps though it wasn't.. It's not like there is more detail or better imaging, or something I can exactly put my finger on - more like something removed. It's just a subtly cleaner sounding..
There is definitely something missing and I like it!
I'm referring to an apparently subtle coloration from the zamac platter which is now gone, and that I thought was sufficiently tamed by the mat I'm using, perhaps though it wasn't.. It's not like there is more detail or better imaging, or something I can exactly put my finger on - more like something removed. It's just a subtly cleaner sounding..
That 'alloy' upper platter is only there for disc jockey use. It degrades what the TT can do. If you are prepared to spend a bit get a pure graphite platter 'mat' 0.75cm or thicker (up to about 2.5cm) made from the finest grain graphite you can obtain.....have it machined so that the disc label rebate is approx 0.5mm lower than the outer edge and use a decent disc clamp/weight preferably with a graphite base to the size of the record label, but make sure that it is small enough that the headshell does not bump against it when the stylus is in the run-out groove.
Such a mat is perhaps the final upgrade you can make once everything else is done. Also an arm board made from the same material is de beez kneez!!
Good luck.