One minor correction, and that is wrt to the additional mass and the effect on the pitch control.. There isn't any.. It was quite cold down here and the table ran slightly slower for that reason, now that it is fully warmed up I see no appreciable change which I guess makes sense.
I will hopefully be borrowing a GR1308 precision power oscillator from a close friend within a couple of weeks and will use that to power my turntable. I will use a precision frequency counter to set the frequency and probably run the output at around 110V which is the middle of the range.. (Power available is 200VA so I doubt this thing will have problems powering my table..
) The intent is to see whether a clean sine wave reduces motor noise even slightly, the lower voltage should very slightly reduce torque, and also result in cooler operation.
I will hopefully be borrowing a GR1308 precision power oscillator from a close friend within a couple of weeks and will use that to power my turntable. I will use a precision frequency counter to set the frequency and probably run the output at around 110V which is the middle of the range.. (Power available is 200VA so I doubt this thing will have problems powering my table..
) The intent is to see whether a clean sine wave reduces motor noise even slightly, the lower voltage should very slightly reduce torque, and also result in cooler operation.
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Hello Kevinkr and Steve,
First I want to thank you guys for expanding the knowledge base on the Thorens 124 turntable. Your efforts have also motivated me to get my rear in gear to finally hook up my Thorens. Everything on my table is stock except for the single Gel grommets on the motor mounts. The gel grommets come in two parts. I used only the large part fitted from the top. On one of the mounts, closest to the front, I used one of the remaining smaller halves and fit it over the gel grommet. This firmed up the support and raised that part of the motor by < 1/8". That really helped in eliminating the last bit of motor hum from getting through to the chassis. I used a stethoscope.
I have no way of comparing, but I may not need to convert to the double grommet motor mounts. The motor noise isolation is that good. I cleaned out the spindle bearings by flushing it out with clean oil. I use 3 in 1 motor 20 wt oil. I replaced the steel ball bearing with a ceramic one and the spindle housing bearing plate with one of the titanium ones. I tried several bearing plates, titanium stainless, steel and nylon. They were all very quiet. I could not hear any noise generated from any of them after running each for over 24 hours. They all left a small indention on the bearing plates. The indention on the steel one was the smallest. It also rotated the longest after shutting off, 3.5 minutes. The others spun for only 2 minutes or so.
I finally installed a special bearing plate that housed a slice of Lignum vitae. It too did not generate any noise, but spin down time was only 1.5 minutes. I left this one in. I used the original belt and wheel. I cleaned and oiled the idler bearing. I dug out my SME 3009 S2 Improved I bought many years ago but never used. I had never installed a tonearm before and even now I am not confident that I did a correct installation, but it works fine with an old Shure Type II cart.
Sorry for the ramblings, but the main reason I posted is that I want you guys to try something out. Get yourself one of these at the hardware store
:
Its a 3/4" coupling. The opening is about 1", which you fit onto your spindle housing. Slide it up a far as you can and tighten it up. I also got a cap to close up the end. First I wanted to use a metal EMT coupler but I didn't want to scratch up the housing. This addition will not hurt your housing in any way, it's plastic. This thing cost less that $4. If your TT base is low you may have to raise it up using 2 pieces of 2X4 s. Try it and let me know your results.
David
First I want to thank you guys for expanding the knowledge base on the Thorens 124 turntable. Your efforts have also motivated me to get my rear in gear to finally hook up my Thorens. Everything on my table is stock except for the single Gel grommets on the motor mounts. The gel grommets come in two parts. I used only the large part fitted from the top. On one of the mounts, closest to the front, I used one of the remaining smaller halves and fit it over the gel grommet. This firmed up the support and raised that part of the motor by < 1/8". That really helped in eliminating the last bit of motor hum from getting through to the chassis. I used a stethoscope.
I have no way of comparing, but I may not need to convert to the double grommet motor mounts. The motor noise isolation is that good. I cleaned out the spindle bearings by flushing it out with clean oil. I use 3 in 1 motor 20 wt oil. I replaced the steel ball bearing with a ceramic one and the spindle housing bearing plate with one of the titanium ones. I tried several bearing plates, titanium stainless, steel and nylon. They were all very quiet. I could not hear any noise generated from any of them after running each for over 24 hours. They all left a small indention on the bearing plates. The indention on the steel one was the smallest. It also rotated the longest after shutting off, 3.5 minutes. The others spun for only 2 minutes or so.
I finally installed a special bearing plate that housed a slice of Lignum vitae. It too did not generate any noise, but spin down time was only 1.5 minutes. I left this one in. I used the original belt and wheel. I cleaned and oiled the idler bearing. I dug out my SME 3009 S2 Improved I bought many years ago but never used. I had never installed a tonearm before and even now I am not confident that I did a correct installation, but it works fine with an old Shure Type II cart.
Sorry for the ramblings, but the main reason I posted is that I want you guys to try something out. Get yourself one of these at the hardware store
:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Its a 3/4" coupling. The opening is about 1", which you fit onto your spindle housing. Slide it up a far as you can and tighten it up. I also got a cap to close up the end. First I wanted to use a metal EMT coupler but I didn't want to scratch up the housing. This addition will not hurt your housing in any way, it's plastic. This thing cost less that $4. If your TT base is low you may have to raise it up using 2 pieces of 2X4 s. Try it and let me know your results.
David
Hi David,
This looks like an interesting experiment. I'll go looking for something similar next time I am at Home Depot.. I assume it damps the main bearing assembly, mine is already shockingly quiet.. (No audible rumble at all in a system that goes down to about 35Hz on the bottom end.)
Do you have a later MKI with the sintered bronze main bearing inserts or an earlier one with the plastic bushings? Replacing the main bearing housing with an after market unit with sintered bronze bushings is a good idea as the plastic ones have a funny way of seizing up without much warning. Usually the table just runs slower and slower until.... Later housings I think will accept replacement sintered bronze bushings, earlier ones may not..
Also I have found that filling the housing with 20wt oil to the top of the lower bushing results in much quieter running, note that it does take a long time to settle all the way to the thrust plate..
The MKII motor mounts are a big improvement and even though you have the Geltec bushings further improvements are possible. FWIW I've somewhat soured on Geltec bushings and plan to "downgrade" to a set of Schopper sourced bushings as an experiment in the not too distant future.
If I understood you correctly your motor is no longer completely horizontal which means that the motor pulley is no longer co-planar with the intermediate pulley and this I have found is a recipe for unnecessary noise.. Once the belt gets loose enough it will also promote its slipping off of the pulley.. I'd start the search for a new belt and keep the old one as a point of reference as new belts are problematic in some cases. The Thorens CB965 from Thakker works quite well once it has had 100hrs or so of run time to elongate on the table. Talc helps quiet things down a lot with a new belt, less necessary and effective on a well used belt.
This looks like an interesting experiment. I'll go looking for something similar next time I am at Home Depot.. I assume it damps the main bearing assembly, mine is already shockingly quiet.. (No audible rumble at all in a system that goes down to about 35Hz on the bottom end.)
Do you have a later MKI with the sintered bronze main bearing inserts or an earlier one with the plastic bushings? Replacing the main bearing housing with an after market unit with sintered bronze bushings is a good idea as the plastic ones have a funny way of seizing up without much warning. Usually the table just runs slower and slower until.... Later housings I think will accept replacement sintered bronze bushings, earlier ones may not..
Also I have found that filling the housing with 20wt oil to the top of the lower bushing results in much quieter running, note that it does take a long time to settle all the way to the thrust plate..
The MKII motor mounts are a big improvement and even though you have the Geltec bushings further improvements are possible. FWIW I've somewhat soured on Geltec bushings and plan to "downgrade" to a set of Schopper sourced bushings as an experiment in the not too distant future.
If I understood you correctly your motor is no longer completely horizontal which means that the motor pulley is no longer co-planar with the intermediate pulley and this I have found is a recipe for unnecessary noise.. Once the belt gets loose enough it will also promote its slipping off of the pulley.. I'd start the search for a new belt and keep the old one as a point of reference as new belts are problematic in some cases. The Thorens CB965 from Thakker works quite well once it has had 100hrs or so of run time to elongate on the table. Talc helps quiet things down a lot with a new belt, less necessary and effective on a well used belt.
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Do you have a later MKI with the sintered bronze main bearing inserts or an earlier one with the plastic bushings? Yes I have the MKI with sintered bronze bearings. They seem to be in good shape. If I rock the platter from side to side I can detect just a very slight movement. But the whole spindle assembly is very quiet. I can not hear any noise while it's spinning down.
Also I have found that filling the housing with 20wt oil to the top of the lower bushing results in much quieter running,
I followed your instruction and the oil overflowed and made a mess. No problem, I cleaned it up and will use just a little less the next time
The MKII motor mounts are a big improvement and even though you have the Geltec bushings further improvements are possible.
The noise transmission to the chassis is so low I can not imagine it to be much better since I did the mod ( Note below)
FWIW I've somewhat soured on Geltec bushings and plan to "downgrade" to a set of Schopper sourced bushings as an experiment in the not too distant future.
Please, could you explain again why you are unhappy with the Geltecs?
If I understood you correctly your motor is no longer completely horizontal which means that the motor pulley is no longer co-planar with the intermediate pulley
I can't tell for sure if the the motor pully is coplanar with the intermediate pully. Visually, they look like they're in line and the belt is running smoothly with no visible wobble or flapping around.
The added bottom half of the gel bushing over one of the top bushing seems to have secured that support post more firmly in the chassis and the increase in height is very slight, less than 1/8". When I put the belt on the motor pully I can not detect any deflection of the motor pully due to the tension of the belt. The supports seem to be very stable and immune to the lateral force from the belt. Hum and mechanical noise transferred from the motor to the chassis is almost undetectable with the sethoscope. I decided to add the extra support on that post after I moved the motor around from the bottom with one hand and listening with the stethoscope held down with my other hand onto the chassis. I noticed that when I lifted the motor closest to the front post, the motor hum would disappear so I tried the reinforced/raised grommet mod. I was happpy with the result. Why is this so? Your guess is good as mine, but possibly the added support/raised post relieved side forces on the other posts reducing pressure and subsequent transfer of noise. What are your thoughts?
Talc helps quiet things down a lot with a new belt, less necessary and effective on a well used belt.[/
I've not tried this yet. I will as soon as I find some talc. I think my nephew may have some. He and his wife just had a baby
I have to appologize for being such a lousy poster. I hate it too, when people post stuff with out the pictures! Guilty!! I'll listen to my turntable for a while before I tear into it. I want to check the wear on the lignum vitae bearing. I'll try to take some decent pictures and post them. Steve, any pointers on how to take those beautiful pictures of yours?
As to the use of the compression coupler on the spindle housing, it reduced some noise. I just removed the coupler and listened to London PS 523 "How to Give Yourself a Stereo Check-Out" track #8 "Silent Grooves." I cranked it up to about 3oclock and I hear the familiar whoosh...whoosh...whoosh... sound of the idler wheel running along the platter rim. It was very faint but it was there. This noise is not obvious while listening at around my normal listening level (9-11oclock setting)and does not detract from my listening enjoyment. But the noise is just bearly noticeable in silent passages if you listen intently for it. I replaced the coupler and did the same test. The whoosh just about disappeared at 3oclock. In summary the coupler didn't seem to make that much difference in my listening enjoyment, but on a quantatative level (my hearing at an extremely loud level) it did reduce the noise transfered to the platter through the spindle housing.
Regards,
David
Also I have found that filling the housing with 20wt oil to the top of the lower bushing results in much quieter running,
I followed your instruction and the oil overflowed and made a mess. No problem, I cleaned it up and will use just a little less the next time
The MKII motor mounts are a big improvement and even though you have the Geltec bushings further improvements are possible.
The noise transmission to the chassis is so low I can not imagine it to be much better since I did the mod ( Note below)
FWIW I've somewhat soured on Geltec bushings and plan to "downgrade" to a set of Schopper sourced bushings as an experiment in the not too distant future.
Please, could you explain again why you are unhappy with the Geltecs?
If I understood you correctly your motor is no longer completely horizontal which means that the motor pulley is no longer co-planar with the intermediate pulley
I can't tell for sure if the the motor pully is coplanar with the intermediate pully. Visually, they look like they're in line and the belt is running smoothly with no visible wobble or flapping around.
The added bottom half of the gel bushing over one of the top bushing seems to have secured that support post more firmly in the chassis and the increase in height is very slight, less than 1/8". When I put the belt on the motor pully I can not detect any deflection of the motor pully due to the tension of the belt. The supports seem to be very stable and immune to the lateral force from the belt. Hum and mechanical noise transferred from the motor to the chassis is almost undetectable with the sethoscope. I decided to add the extra support on that post after I moved the motor around from the bottom with one hand and listening with the stethoscope held down with my other hand onto the chassis. I noticed that when I lifted the motor closest to the front post, the motor hum would disappear so I tried the reinforced/raised grommet mod. I was happpy with the result. Why is this so? Your guess is good as mine, but possibly the added support/raised post relieved side forces on the other posts reducing pressure and subsequent transfer of noise.
What are your thoughts?Talc helps quiet things down a lot with a new belt, less necessary and effective on a well used belt.[/
I've not tried this yet. I will as soon as I find some talc. I think my nephew may have some. He and his wife just had a baby
I have to appologize for being such a lousy poster. I hate it too, when people post stuff with out the pictures! Guilty!! I'll listen to my turntable for a while before I tear into it. I want to check the wear on the lignum vitae bearing. I'll try to take some decent pictures and post them. Steve, any pointers on how to take those beautiful pictures of yours?
As to the use of the compression coupler on the spindle housing, it reduced some noise. I just removed the coupler and listened to London PS 523 "How to Give Yourself a Stereo Check-Out" track #8 "Silent Grooves." I cranked it up to about 3oclock and I hear the familiar whoosh...whoosh...whoosh... sound of the idler wheel running along the platter rim. It was very faint but it was there. This noise is not obvious while listening at around my normal listening level (9-11oclock setting)and does not detract from my listening enjoyment. But the noise is just bearly noticeable in silent passages if you listen intently for it. I replaced the coupler and did the same test. The whoosh just about disappeared at 3oclock. In summary the coupler didn't seem to make that much difference in my listening enjoyment, but on a quantatative level (my hearing at an extremely loud level) it did reduce the noise transfered to the platter through the spindle housing.
Regards,
David
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Truthfully you really shouldn't be able to detect any movement at all, at least not without a good dial gauge, and the fact that you can makes me think your bearings may actually be excessively worn.. Fortunately replacement main bearings are inexpensive and probably not too hard to replace with a miniature bearing puller. It may also explain the noise you're hearing. I don't hear any... at all..
Yeah it it is messy when even slightly overfilled. Ask me how I know..I followed your instruction and the oil overflowed and made a mess. No problem, I cleaned it up and will use just a little less the next time
I don't think this is going to be a permanent solution, those bushings will creep/flow over time and while it works now it probably won't in the future. The kit allows you to achieve excellent isolation without this subterfuge and without any other tricks.
The Geltecs IMHO are not a good solution for single grommet suspensions in particular because there is nothing below the chassis in this scenario and the lower portion of the bushing helps slightly to hold the motor in alignment. (And should help reduce deflection in the rest of the bushing.)
I think these bushings are pretty marginal even with the two bushing mounts I have on my TT. I plan to at least try something else before I draw any final conclusions. Wait until you have to get a new belt and you will see very clearly what the issue is with these bushings. I won't recommend them for a MKII going forward until I have some evidence that they work OK long term even though they do a great job of providing isolation in my experiential vacuum having only tried them. Some of the intermediate pulley issues I have had may have been partially the result of their use. I don't think they are ever good in a MKI..
See above...
A new belt due to the greatly increased tension is probably going to be this setup's undoing.. It's good to experiment, and this should work OK until the old belt fails. I learned the very hard way that mis-alignment of the motor pulley and intermediate pulley on my MKII was a recipe for greatly increased noise from the intermediate pulley. Early MKI have less of a problem with this issue than later MKI & MKII with the intermediate pulley bearing housing in the chassis. This of course is in my very limited experience.I can't tell for sure if the the motor pully is coplanar with the intermediate pully. Visually, they look like they're in line and the belt is running smoothly with no visible wobble or flapping around.
The added bottom half of the gel bushing over one of the top bushing seems to have secured that support post more firmly in the chassis and the increase in height is very slight, less than 1/8". When I put the belt on the motor pully I can not detect any deflection of the motor pully due to the tension of the belt. The supports seem to be very stable and immune to the lateral force from the belt. Hum and mechanical noise transferred from the motor to the chassis is almost undetectable with the sethoscope. I decided to add the extra support on that post after I moved the motor around from the bottom with one hand and listening with the stethoscope held down with my other hand onto the chassis. I noticed that when I lifted the motor closest to the front post, the motor hum would disappear so I tried the reinforced/raised grommet mod. I was happpy with the result. Why is this so? Your guess is good as mine, but possibly the added support/raised post relieved side forces on the other posts reducing pressure and subsequent transfer of noise.
Babies generally get dusted with corn starch based powders, with all sorts of other additives you don't want, talc doesn't seem to be an ingredient in baby powders either. Generic foot powder contains the most talc and the least extraneous and unwanted ingredients of any formulation I have been able to find. You want to avoid anything with an ingredient list longer than about 2 additives..Talc helps quiet things down a lot with a new belt, less necessary and effective on a well used belt.[/
I've not tried this yet. I will as soon as I find some talc. I think my nephew may have some. He and his wife just had a baby
The idler excites the periphery of the platter directly, I suspect it doesn't need to be coupled to the platter via the main bearing. My suspicion is that you are damping a little noise generated by your main bearing. As I indicated mine does not make any comparable noise. Concentric and properly running idlers don't make whooshing noises, they aren't silent either, but the noise they make is very low level and consistent if present - and IMLE is mostly due to hardened rubber in the idler. ..
Mine historically has generated a cacophonous range of different noises relating to the particular (and well described) issues I have had - happily these are receding into a set of increasingly distant bad memories, hopefully soon to be forgotten.. I assume you have the cast iron platter which is less resonant and much better damped wrt to external influences as compared to the zamac platter on mine.
WRT idler pulley maintenance, a good wash in hot soapy water using a hand dish washing detergent without any skin softener is about the kindest thing you can do for the idler pulley. A quick and very light pass with Scotch-Brite will remove any crust on the pulley. Once clean I handle pulleys with paper towels only in order to avoid contamination with skin oils. The running surface of the platter should be thoroughly cleaned of any idler rubber remains. (Scotch-Brite if necessary) Probably all stunningly obvious, but the cleaner the better - and the results of a good cleaning will be evidenced in a reduction in idler to platter contact noise.
I am going to pick up one of those clamps sometime soon, give it a try and report back when I do..
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Lowest MKII Serial # I've Seen
Right now on eBay there is an early non USA version of the MKII with a serial # of 60831 - which is the earliest one I am aware of. Listing is here:
Vintage THORENS 124 Mk 2 Turntable suit SME & other arm - eBay (item 120662148794 end time Dec-29-10 04:42:06 PST)
I guess that would make the MKII about half as common as the MKI.. Note that this isn't a recommendation to buy on my part..
As always caveat emptor. No idea what the reserve might be, but this one didn't sell and was relisted, and given that they are selling like hotcakes on eBay right now at about $1K often with interesting and serviceable vintage arms I would guess it was high. (Everything currently listed seems to be overpriced, and most of have been on offer for a while, whilst the more realistically priced ones have all sold..)
Right now on eBay there is an early non USA version of the MKII with a serial # of 60831 - which is the earliest one I am aware of. Listing is here:
Vintage THORENS 124 Mk 2 Turntable suit SME & other arm - eBay (item 120662148794 end time Dec-29-10 04:42:06 PST)
I guess that would make the MKII about half as common as the MKI.. Note that this isn't a recommendation to buy on my part..
As always caveat emptor. No idea what the reserve might be, but this one didn't sell and was relisted, and given that they are selling like hotcakes on eBay right now at about $1K often with interesting and serviceable vintage arms I would guess it was high. (Everything currently listed seems to be overpriced, and most of have been on offer for a while, whilst the more realistically priced ones have all sold..)
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When I first tested my platter and made my first post, I had not filled the spindle full with oil. After I filled it up completely and making a mess I did not retest. After reading your last post I checked it again and I do not feel any movement of the platter when I tried to rock it from side to side. I think the oil has filled in the clearance. It seems solid Even though I can't detect any bearing slop, do you think I should still replace those bearings with ones that will fit tighter? Again, the spindle bearing and thrust plate assembly is silent when I listen to it through my sethoscope.
Can you cite a reference to silicone's propensity to creep/flow? Since silicone O-rings are used as seals, I assume they will remain stable over time.
The gel bushings come in two parts. Only the larger parts were used. They were inserted from the top of the chassis and the weight of the motor squished the bushings, holding them in place. A bushing below the chassis would have some affect on the stability but I believe minor. Use of the two piece grommets would obviate the lower part since the fit is not fixed as in a traditionl one piece grommet There is no noticeable deflection of the motor when the belt was put on. I believe one of the main roles of these bushings are to isolate motor noise from the chassis. and they do a very good job compared to the original, not so compliant rubber ones. On the motor mount cloest to the front, I stretched the smaller part of the bushing over the top of the larger bushing which made that mount firmer and raised it slightly. That mod reduced the noise transmission to an undetectable level.
Could you describe the method used to determine mis-alignment? From just eyeballing the moving assembly, I can not detect anything wrong. What should I look for?
Now, noise from the intermediate pulley is a big problem. It is a major contributor to the cacophonous symphony of noise getting through to the cartridge. From where exactly the noise is generated, I am not certain. It may come from one or a combination of the following: the pulley bearing, the belt/pully interface/ mis-alignment the excitation of the pulley. Have you done any work on the bearing? How about adding some dampening material on the insides of the pulley?
Can you recommend a particular brand?
Yes, the other major noise contributor is from the idler/platter rim interface, but I don't think the whoosh sounds are from the main bearings (See above) but from the the idler wheel/rim. I will take your advice and give the rubber wheel/rim a tune up as you suggested. If the idler is not concentric I may either buy a new one or get new rubber put on. There is a person who will provide this service for around $25 as I recall reading somewhere.
One more thing, you mentioned that you have some washers under the idler wheel. There are none on mine. Is this a normal situation? Should there be at least one washer present?
Again, thanks for the input. This is all very helpful.
David
This sounds OK to me. No noise is the key, and if you don't observe any deflection short of doing a test with a dial gauge I think you are OK to stick with the existing bearings.
I looked up the physical characteristics of a typical silicone elastomer similar to what is used in the geltec bushings, and I guess I would have to say that I was echoing comments from others more experienced than I - as I find no real evidence to support those statements either. It seems that it has good behavior under compression and relatively minor memory effects. So it may in fact be just fine - time will tell, and they are easily replaced down the road if they don't work well. The primary concern with them is that they are a bit soft and deflect more than the original style bushings. The original bushings always seem to look good but have deteriorated sufficiently that they do not provide sufficient isolation - OEM style replacements seem to perform well - whether they isolate as well as the Geltec bushings is not something I can answer yet.
There are several ways to determine whether the pulleys are adequate aligned, but most require extensive measurements with a caliper or similar. Usually you can tell if the pulley alignment is significantly off by observing how the belt runs on the pulleys, if the "wear" mark from the crowning on the pulleys is narrow and centered the belt is in about the optimum place. Notice how it looks on the factory belt provided nothing has changed for how it should look.. Look at whether or not it is centered on the motor pulley as this is another clue, and it will not be centered on the intermediate pulley.
In terms of managing the pulley noise I've found a number of things help, perhaps the most important and least obvious is to polish the belt running surface until it feels very smooth, the second with new belts is the application of talc, and finally trying to find the motor pulley position that looks right visually and also results in minimal noise. Normally setting things exactly as they were from the factory is optimum, but only if you have OEM style replacement bushings. (The geltecs cause the motor to sit at a slightly different height.)
In terms of the intermediate pulley bearing assembly there is not much you can do, replacement bushings are not currently available anywhere, however in the few TT I have so far worked on with this setup they have been fine. If badly worn grease might be an option. Mine are unworn to the best of my ability to tell - the thrust plate is unmarked..
There is is limited clearance between the intermediate pulley and the eddy current brake components, but there ought to be enough space for a thin coating of aquaplas or something similar. I would probably paint most of the inside with it. Note that it might unbalance it so proceed at own risk.. Polishing the exterior belt running surface made a big difference.
I'm using the Rite-Aid generic, but I would think any brand would do as long as it has a short ingredient list and is mostly talc.
Depending on how you removed the platter the whooshing noise may be a symptom that the platter is not quite perfectly centered on the platter. Many recommend that you remove the platter from the spindle in order to avoid blowing out the gasket in the bottom of the main bearing well, whilst others recommend you not separate them so that they remain properly centered. It is fairly easy to make a gauge to aid in platter centering if you separated the platter and spindle - if you haven't then this isn't the issue. The gauge should fit snuggly in the vertical plane between the lower platter and the chassis somewhere near the strobe. (Not critical..) Loosen the three screws on top and turn the platter 360 degrees, a properly chosen gauge should result in a nicely centered platter. Run the table outside of the plinth and take a look at the vertical rod on the idler mechanism - if properly centered it will not be moving at all. The proper way of course is to make a fixture with a proper main bearing and a dial indicator which is probably more than most people need..
sq38s on eBay sells a replacement idler that is reputed to be good, but I have no direct experience with it..
Yes IMLE there should be a single washer at minimum underneath the idler.. Additional washers were used as shims to adjust the height of the idler relative to the intermediate pulley when needed. (Not often apparently as I have only seen one with two washers, note that there are a variety of washers that may be used, but the first one seems to usually be a clear one.. Steve might know its actual thickness, and I believe this is discussed in the service manual available at Vinyl Engine | The Home of the Turntable.
So many things to consider, and I am still learning on a day to day basis.. Hope this is helpful to you, trying hard not to steer you the wrong way. Above all just experiment to find what works best for you at the current time, over time you will figure out a lot of things and may make as yet unanticipated changes as a result of that experience.
I can't agree with you more. Your posts are most helpful.
I did as you suggested and I can not see any movement from the vertical idler rod. While under the hood I realized that I can disengage the idler wheel from the rim and intermediate pulley. I got out my other test record Shure Trackability Test Record TTR 101. While playing the blank anti-skate band, with the volume at about 2 oclock, I could not hear much difference in the amount of noise getting through to my cart. I did the same on track 6 silent grooves. Again there was no immediate noticeable difference. All I could hear, I assumed was the noise from the motor/belt/intermediate pulley assembly and main bearing noise and of course record stylus noise.
Next, I eliminated the noise contribution from the motor/belt/intermediate pulley assembly. The only way to do so was to switch the TT to the off position. This would shut off the motor and disengage the idler wheel. What remaining noise should be from the noise generated from the record stylus interface and main bearing. Since my main bearing was silent what remains is noise from the record. I was surprised with the result. Can you try this experiment and let me know your results?
David
<snip>
What remaining noise should be from the noise generated from the record stylus interface and main bearing. Since my main bearing was silent what remains is noise from the record. I was surprised with the result. Can you try this experiment and let me know your results?
David
I did something quite similar a while ago, and what I found was that many records have plenty of built in rumble and other noise, while some others seem much quieter. (Sometimes very noticeable rumble on the lead out grooves in particular.) When I switched from the SME 20/2 to the TD-124 I did not notice a significant change in LF noise on any recordings I played as part of the comparison. I'm wondering if this is what you are getting at? IMO a TD-124 in good running order has significantly less rumble than most records I have encountered.
The Sculley 66 record cutting lathe was not noted for its complete lack of rumble, the later 77 apparently was much quieter mechanically. Other companies made cutting lathes that were more or less quiet than the above. And that's really almost all I know on this particular subject..
Glad to hear that the platter/spindle eccentricity is within acceptable bounds - one less thing to worry about. Always a good thing..
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Got my Christmas present yesterday: Swiss Precision, 2nd Edition..
In other news I have been working on an SME 3012 that I am restoring for a friend, and as part of that deal I will get to evaluate it on my table for some period of time. This should give me time to decide whether I want to acquire a conversion kit on eBay and convert one of my superfluous 3009 arms to an ersatz 3012.. The probable answer is yes, but this arm will buy me time and a point of reference as I get the arm dialed in.
It is possible I might bite the bullet and acquire a bona fide 3012 as well I suppose - depends on what I can come up with.
In any event I need to purchase an arm board for the 3012. I think this should be a better match to the rather heavy ZU than the 3009 it is currently on. There is some evidence that the arm/cartridge resonant frequency is just a bit too high. I have a couple of records that due to warp are now unplayable (or more accurately not safely playable) as they excite a resonance.
Hoping to replinth the table within the next couple of months.
The noise issues have abated considerably, it is not dead silent, nor will it ever be. Speed stability is excellent, it never needs adjustment at all.
The only issue is that I am pretty much at the limit of the brake. All of the work I have done seems to have reduced drag far below OEM levels - the only other possibility is that the magnet is a bit weak, but no real evidence for that. I do have another magnet.
Other than the need to clean the stylus on the Zu/Denon DL-103 rather frequently everything thing seems to be working fine.
Did I make a good choice? Given my budget, and audio preferences this turntable suits me pretty well. How it or one of its brothers compares to a Garrard 301 or similar I have no idea, but I will probably find out. (soon)
Another friend just purchased a very early MKI, (6xxx serial number) and eventually when he has restored it I will get to hear it too.
In other news I have been working on an SME 3012 that I am restoring for a friend, and as part of that deal I will get to evaluate it on my table for some period of time. This should give me time to decide whether I want to acquire a conversion kit on eBay and convert one of my superfluous 3009 arms to an ersatz 3012.. The probable answer is yes, but this arm will buy me time and a point of reference as I get the arm dialed in.
It is possible I might bite the bullet and acquire a bona fide 3012 as well I suppose - depends on what I can come up with.
In any event I need to purchase an arm board for the 3012. I think this should be a better match to the rather heavy ZU than the 3009 it is currently on. There is some evidence that the arm/cartridge resonant frequency is just a bit too high. I have a couple of records that due to warp are now unplayable (or more accurately not safely playable) as they excite a resonance.
Hoping to replinth the table within the next couple of months.
The noise issues have abated considerably, it is not dead silent, nor will it ever be. Speed stability is excellent, it never needs adjustment at all.
The only issue is that I am pretty much at the limit of the brake. All of the work I have done seems to have reduced drag far below OEM levels - the only other possibility is that the magnet is a bit weak, but no real evidence for that. I do have another magnet.
Other than the need to clean the stylus on the Zu/Denon DL-103 rather frequently everything thing seems to be working fine.
Did I make a good choice? Given my budget, and audio preferences this turntable suits me pretty well. How it or one of its brothers compares to a Garrard 301 or similar I have no idea, but I will probably find out. (soon)
Another friend just purchased a very early MKI, (6xxx serial number) and eventually when he has restored it I will get to hear it too.
Attachments
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Tinkering with an SME 3012 Series II
I've been working on an SME 3012 arm which was loaned to me by a friend. Curiosity did finally get the better of me and thanks to the help of a donated cigar box, a spool of solder, and "Getting Better Sound" I was able to play it for a short period of time. Long enough to know that I am acquiring an arm board for it, and am now scheming to acquire one of my own longer term. (A real one)
The 3012 is definitely a better match to the low compliance high mass of the Zu/Denon than the lighter 3009, and while most improvements were subtle there was a significant tightening in the low bass and the very extreme highs seemed considerably better as well. Overall the improvement was quite significant and worthwhile from my POV.
No problems with rumble either despite the odd mounting arrangement - guess that says the table is running pretty quietly since the rumble component is now no longer in any sense common mode since the arm was completely decoupled from the chassis.
The lash up shown in the following pictures was quite ill-advised but was enough to give me a sense of whether I should spend some more money.. It was quickly dismantled before some mis-hap took out my cartridge.
I've been working on an SME 3012 arm which was loaned to me by a friend. Curiosity did finally get the better of me and thanks to the help of a donated cigar box, a spool of solder, and "Getting Better Sound" I was able to play it for a short period of time. Long enough to know that I am acquiring an arm board for it, and am now scheming to acquire one of my own longer term. (A real one)
The 3012 is definitely a better match to the low compliance high mass of the Zu/Denon than the lighter 3009, and while most improvements were subtle there was a significant tightening in the low bass and the very extreme highs seemed considerably better as well. Overall the improvement was quite significant and worthwhile from my POV.
No problems with rumble either despite the odd mounting arrangement - guess that says the table is running pretty quietly since the rumble component is now no longer in any sense common mode since the arm was completely decoupled from the chassis.
The lash up shown in the following pictures was quite ill-advised but was enough to give me a sense of whether I should spend some more money..
It was quickly dismantled before some mis-hap took out my cartridge.Attachments
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Further SME comments
The 3012 is going back to its owner shortly, but listening to it was interesting and thought provoking to say the least. In an effort to eke a little more performance out of the 3009 I removed the grommets (recently replaced) in the bed plate and bolted it directly to the arm board. Not entirely to my surprise I noted a marked improvement in the bottom end - it tightened up significantly, highs are a bit cleaner and imaging also improved. No increase in audible rumble either.
I am wrestling with the arm question at the moment. A slate plinth is a few months away at minimum, but I was seriously planning on a 3012 purchase, but I realized that the Schick arm costs little more than most 3012 selling on eBay unless very lucky. So that is now under consideration. Hopefully I will not have the rumble issue that Art Dudley reported using one on his TD-124 with an SPU.. it can be dealt with, but hopefully is something I won't have to deal with.
I really like this TD-124, it continues to impress. (Hence better arm and plinth coming soon.) Cartridge will eventually get the Soundsmith treatment too.
The 3012 is going back to its owner shortly, but listening to it was interesting and thought provoking to say the least. In an effort to eke a little more performance out of the 3009 I removed the grommets (recently replaced) in the bed plate and bolted it directly to the arm board. Not entirely to my surprise I noted a marked improvement in the bottom end - it tightened up significantly, highs are a bit cleaner and imaging also improved. No increase in audible rumble either.
I am wrestling with the arm question at the moment. A slate plinth is a few months away at minimum, but I was seriously planning on a 3012 purchase, but I realized that the Schick arm costs little more than most 3012 selling on eBay unless very lucky. So that is now under consideration. Hopefully I will not have the rumble issue that Art Dudley reported using one on his TD-124 with an SPU.. it can be dealt with, but hopefully is something I won't have to deal with.
I really like this TD-124, it continues to impress. (Hence better arm and plinth coming soon.) Cartridge will eventually get the Soundsmith treatment too.
TD 124 restoring tips and tricks
I am going to make this simple.
Since this *IS* a DIY site, I think we owners of TD 124's should share our knowledge and findings in rebuilding our treasure(s).
I have owned my TD 124 (MKI) since 2006. It has a SME 3012 arm that came on it.
I am a pefectionist, want my TD 124 to run just like it did when new, (even if that is impossible) and have had lots of little, (but big to me) issues with it after I cleaned/oiled the platter bearing, intermediate bearing, motor and replaced the cracked belt with a Octave Audio belt. (labeled Thorens, but no Thorens P/N.)
First of all, it came with the optional Invar alloy platter, which to me, is too lite, (I use a MM cart) and it clearly rang if tapped. I found a cast iron platter on ebay, I replaced it, and I am much happier. Oh, the cast iron platter has all of the proper strobe marks, (the invar alloy platter has only 33 and 45 marks) and the cast iron platter doesn't ring. Oh, and I got a bonus, the seller gave me another main platter bearing! BTW, there has been a LOT of people's opinions on how much and what kind of oil to use for the platter bearing. What I'm using is 3 drops of "Turbine Oil", (aprox 20w) but this was after I did the ultimate cleaning/oiling. How? I used an ultrasonic cleaner, and what I did is fill it with Isopropyl alcohol, (91%) and let the cleaner run for 8 hours. After 6, old oil started to show in the alcohol bath, I changed the alcohol and let it run for another 2 hours. At that point, I saw no-more oil in the bath.
I then filled up the bearing well with Turbine oil, and let it soak for 8 hours with heat applied from a hair dryer. After that, 3 drops as per advice from Schoppers, and I was done. I basically did the same thing with the motor bearings, but the intermediate bearing, (I believe) is pressed in, and I am wary of trying to remove it, I have never seen a replacement being offered.
Back to the belt!
I think that for me, this was in retrospect, my biggest problem. My TD 124 was too noisy and had slight, (but slow) flutter problems seen by looking at the strobe. I thought at first that it was a bearing or misalignment, but I solved it by removing the belt, and treating it with talcum powder. This got rid of the excessive friction issues, which btw, left rubber on the pully's. After cleaning the pullys, and reinstalling the belt, the noise issues were gone, at the cost of a little slippage at startup. So what if the platter takes 2 more seconds to get up to speed?
One more thing.
Is your motor pully aligned with your intermediate pully? Mine wasn't. The idler, intermediate pully, and motor pully are all adjustable, but I left the idler pully alone, with one nylon washer underneath. Next, I lined-up the intermediate pully with the idler per the Thorens manual.
Next, I cut a small piece of small aluminum angle I bought at Home Depot, (5" x 3/4" x 1/2", or 125mm x 19mm x 12mm) to bridge across from the motor pully to the intermediate pully for. The idea is to make sure that the belt runs straight across between the pullys, if the piece of aluminum angle is laying flat on both pully's, the pully's are true to each other. If not, it is possible to adjust either pully to true them, but if you adjust the motor pully, you won't need to adjust the intermediate/idler again. I think it might be possible to get the motor pully too high, and scrape the underside of the platter, check it by slowly rotating the platter by hand after re-installing.
Oh, I have seen/read about proper platter installation, with many advising to mark the original position, (the best) or to adjust the position of the platter's relationship to the bearing shaft using a mic for minumum runout at the inner surface that the idler runs on. The hole diameter of the platter is so close to the shaft diameter that it mates with, that I find it hard to believe there is enough play to adjust it that way. My guess is that the technicians at Thorens used one of the methods I have detailed below to get the least runout. Selecting the best shaft-platter combination for the least runout, and/or changing position of the platter to one of three positions (limited by using three screws to attach the platter to the shaft, pick which one of the three positions gets you the least runout.) The hole diameter of the platter is so close to the shaft diameter that it mates with, that I find it hard to believe there is enough play to adjust it otherwise. I think that Thorens factory technicians selected parts and adjusted as per position for minimum runout, something that most of us cannot do. I marked the original position of the platter/bearing shaft before seperating.
Strobe: This may not apply to anyone here. My strobe light flickered, which bothered me. After checking around, I figured out that the cost of replacing it would be at a minimum of $35, which seems a little excessive to me. After some research, I found another source, but I had to buy 4! They are RCA 991's. they don't have the same p/n, (Phillips GL1W) but work fine and are a lot cheaper. Oh, the 991's don't have a built-in lens, but they work, IMHO, just as well. Anyone interested in one? I have 3 spares.
I am going to make this simple.
Since this *IS* a DIY site, I think we owners of TD 124's should share our knowledge and findings in rebuilding our treasure(s).
I have owned my TD 124 (MKI) since 2006. It has a SME 3012 arm that came on it.
I am a pefectionist, want my TD 124 to run just like it did when new, (even if that is impossible) and have had lots of little, (but big to me) issues with it after I cleaned/oiled the platter bearing, intermediate bearing, motor and replaced the cracked belt with a Octave Audio belt. (labeled Thorens, but no Thorens P/N.)
First of all, it came with the optional Invar alloy platter, which to me, is too lite, (I use a MM cart) and it clearly rang if tapped. I found a cast iron platter on ebay, I replaced it, and I am much happier. Oh, the cast iron platter has all of the proper strobe marks, (the invar alloy platter has only 33 and 45 marks) and the cast iron platter doesn't ring. Oh, and I got a bonus, the seller gave me another main platter bearing! BTW, there has been a LOT of people's opinions on how much and what kind of oil to use for the platter bearing. What I'm using is 3 drops of "Turbine Oil", (aprox 20w) but this was after I did the ultimate cleaning/oiling. How? I used an ultrasonic cleaner, and what I did is fill it with Isopropyl alcohol, (91%) and let the cleaner run for 8 hours. After 6, old oil started to show in the alcohol bath, I changed the alcohol and let it run for another 2 hours. At that point, I saw no-more oil in the bath.
I then filled up the bearing well with Turbine oil, and let it soak for 8 hours with heat applied from a hair dryer. After that, 3 drops as per advice from Schoppers, and I was done. I basically did the same thing with the motor bearings, but the intermediate bearing, (I believe) is pressed in, and I am wary of trying to remove it, I have never seen a replacement being offered.
Back to the belt!
I think that for me, this was in retrospect, my biggest problem. My TD 124 was too noisy and had slight, (but slow) flutter problems seen by looking at the strobe. I thought at first that it was a bearing or misalignment, but I solved it by removing the belt, and treating it with talcum powder. This got rid of the excessive friction issues, which btw, left rubber on the pully's. After cleaning the pullys, and reinstalling the belt, the noise issues were gone, at the cost of a little slippage at startup. So what if the platter takes 2 more seconds to get up to speed?
One more thing.
Is your motor pully aligned with your intermediate pully? Mine wasn't. The idler, intermediate pully, and motor pully are all adjustable, but I left the idler pully alone, with one nylon washer underneath. Next, I lined-up the intermediate pully with the idler per the Thorens manual.
Next, I cut a small piece of small aluminum angle I bought at Home Depot, (5" x 3/4" x 1/2", or 125mm x 19mm x 12mm) to bridge across from the motor pully to the intermediate pully for. The idea is to make sure that the belt runs straight across between the pullys, if the piece of aluminum angle is laying flat on both pully's, the pully's are true to each other. If not, it is possible to adjust either pully to true them, but if you adjust the motor pully, you won't need to adjust the intermediate/idler again. I think it might be possible to get the motor pully too high, and scrape the underside of the platter, check it by slowly rotating the platter by hand after re-installing.
Oh, I have seen/read about proper platter installation, with many advising to mark the original position, (the best) or to adjust the position of the platter's relationship to the bearing shaft using a mic for minumum runout at the inner surface that the idler runs on. The hole diameter of the platter is so close to the shaft diameter that it mates with, that I find it hard to believe there is enough play to adjust it that way. My guess is that the technicians at Thorens used one of the methods I have detailed below to get the least runout. Selecting the best shaft-platter combination for the least runout, and/or changing position of the platter to one of three positions (limited by using three screws to attach the platter to the shaft, pick which one of the three positions gets you the least runout.) The hole diameter of the platter is so close to the shaft diameter that it mates with, that I find it hard to believe there is enough play to adjust it otherwise. I think that Thorens factory technicians selected parts and adjusted as per position for minimum runout, something that most of us cannot do. I marked the original position of the platter/bearing shaft before seperating.
Strobe: This may not apply to anyone here. My strobe light flickered, which bothered me. After checking around, I figured out that the cost of replacing it would be at a minimum of $35, which seems a little excessive to me. After some research, I found another source, but I had to buy 4! They are RCA 991's. they don't have the same p/n, (Phillips GL1W) but work fine and are a lot cheaper. Oh, the 991's don't have a built-in lens, but they work, IMHO, just as well. Anyone interested in one? I have 3 spares.
Hi Genemi,
Seems like you have a lot of hard won knowledge about your table much as I have been learning.
You make some very good points though and echo a lot of what I have learned.
A couple of comments I guess starting with the motor pulley issue you mention. I align mine (and those of the few others whose machines I maintain which interestingly are all very early MKI) mostly by listening - the general idea is to align the pulley so that the crowns of both align, this usually also gives the quietest operation IMLE.
I clean the pulleys about every 4 weeks and like you talc the belt. I'm using a genuine replacement belt Thorens CB965 purchased from Thakker late last year.. It was noisy as sin when new.. Not sure why talcing your belt would slow it's start up, mine doesn't slip at all and is up to full speed in about 1 second.
I have measured the displacement that is possible with the platter not properly centered on the zamac platter on mine, and 1mm peak to peak is possible. I've also found that I was able to easily adjust it out in any combination of the 3 holes I've tried.. I'm wondering if the flutter you mentioned was really wow and was due to a slightly off-center platter - the strobe does not have sufficient resolution for anything but gross deviations in speed. (per the Thorens service manual) A simple little gauge can be made to help you center it by trial and error.
The tip on the neon lamp is excellent as even the lensed neon lamp is not wonderful and if the lens doesn't contribute usefully the much less expensive neon lamp sounds like the ticket for anyone who isn't concerned about originality.
Seems like you have a lot of hard won knowledge about your table much as I have been learning.
You make some very good points though and echo a lot of what I have learned.
A couple of comments I guess starting with the motor pulley issue you mention. I align mine (and those of the few others whose machines I maintain which interestingly are all very early MKI) mostly by listening - the general idea is to align the pulley so that the crowns of both align, this usually also gives the quietest operation IMLE.
I clean the pulleys about every 4 weeks and like you talc the belt. I'm using a genuine replacement belt Thorens CB965 purchased from Thakker late last year.. It was noisy as sin when new.. Not sure why talcing your belt would slow it's start up, mine doesn't slip at all and is up to full speed in about 1 second.
I have measured the displacement that is possible with the platter not properly centered on the zamac platter on mine, and 1mm peak to peak is possible. I've also found that I was able to easily adjust it out in any combination of the 3 holes I've tried.. I'm wondering if the flutter you mentioned was really wow and was due to a slightly off-center platter - the strobe does not have sufficient resolution for anything but gross deviations in speed. (per the Thorens service manual) A simple little gauge can be made to help you center it by trial and error.
The tip on the neon lamp is excellent as even the lensed neon lamp is not wonderful and if the lens doesn't contribute usefully the much less expensive neon lamp sounds like the ticket for anyone who isn't concerned about originality.
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hello Kevinkr and all TD 124 owners,
Thank you for the kind words and your posts and the other posts here about the TD 124 are a good knowledge base for all of us, all of us can learn from each others experience.
I re-talc-ed the belt for the second time recently, and this time I rubbed it in hard with my fingers, not like last time when I basically just let the belt sit in the talc. It has caused a bit more slip, but the slip is not a problem, and it now runs without any flutter. BTW,thanks for the correction, you were right, I called it wow, but it was flutter.
What do you mean by Zamac? the alloy platter made by Inca? (the name is found on the bottom of the alloy platter and is cast-in.) My TD 124 came with one installed, but I wasn't happy with it, and bought a cast iron platter off of Ebay to replace it. If I remember, the amount of play between the alloy platter and the spindle is more than with the iron platter installed. Perhaps it is because of the aluminum intermediate spacer between the platter and the spindle. I haven't yet measured the ID and OD of the iron platter and the spindle, but they are very close, It's impossible on mine to seperate them if you tilt the platter as you remove it.
I forget who mentioned it, but the idea of lookiing underneath and watching the idler spindle for play while running is excellent, I did that and there is no detectable motion, so it must be somewhere around a couple of thousands at best. BTW, I kept my original neon strobe light, since the bulb is socketed, it will be easy to re-install if I sell it someday.
Thank you for the kind words and your posts and the other posts here about the TD 124 are a good knowledge base for all of us, all of us can learn from each others experience.
I re-talc-ed the belt for the second time recently, and this time I rubbed it in hard with my fingers, not like last time when I basically just let the belt sit in the talc. It has caused a bit more slip, but the slip is not a problem, and it now runs without any flutter. BTW,thanks for the correction, you were right, I called it wow, but it was flutter.
What do you mean by Zamac? the alloy platter made by Inca? (the name is found on the bottom of the alloy platter and is cast-in.) My TD 124 came with one installed, but I wasn't happy with it, and bought a cast iron platter off of Ebay to replace it. If I remember, the amount of play between the alloy platter and the spindle is more than with the iron platter installed. Perhaps it is because of the aluminum intermediate spacer between the platter and the spindle. I haven't yet measured the ID and OD of the iron platter and the spindle, but they are very close, It's impossible on mine to seperate them if you tilt the platter as you remove it.
I forget who mentioned it, but the idea of lookiing underneath and watching the idler spindle for play while running is excellent, I did that and there is no detectable motion, so it must be somewhere around a couple of thousands at best. BTW, I kept my original neon strobe light, since the bulb is socketed, it will be easy to re-install if I sell it someday.