I was talking to DF96, who referred to himself as "normal." He and I have a good understanding and respect for one another built through some years of on-line communication and discussion.
But yes, the literature is out there for you to search and use to increase your understanding of what things have been tested and been well-established concerning audibility of different phenomena. If you would like me to do a compilation, with references and proper qualification, feel free to email me for a quote. My research rates are quite reasonable.
My apologies SY, I had no idea my simple request would be such an effort for you that it would require compensation. For my own part, the studies I have read are quite disparate in their findings and highly corroborative of the interests of the parties funding those studies. This should be no surprise to the acquainted reader here. In the era of the 1K distortion test standard, there were "tons of papers" stating how this test would tell you all you need to know. Would asking SY to take a position on the audibility of different resistors also require some form of remuneration? If so, we might understand how truths can be skewed towards financial interests and how not towing the endorsed line could get you some acrimony.
Yup again, don't forget microphony of ALL resistors
Show the numbers. If there are any. Phoney is right.
That's a good reason that it would behoove you to do your own literature searching so that you can satisfy yourself that the data are the data and what it would take to come up with something that contradicts well-established work. There's a large body of excellent research dating back 40 years or more to draw from.
I would agree that one should be suspicious of work that has commercial implications for the authors and isn't independently refereed, so you would probably want to concentrate on sources outside of commercial magazines like Stereophile, HFNRR, or Absolute Sound who have a definite financial stake in the outcome of experiments and no checks and balances other than what it takes to sell magazines and advertising. Professional journals, though certainly not perfect, are a much more reliable source.
SY, I am comfortable with my knowledge on the subject but not so comfortable with yours so please forgive me if I ignore your vague references to Professional Journals. Many of these are also tainted by industry interests but perhaps not quite so directly as others you have mentioned. Why is it so difficult for you to go on the record here about the audibility of different resistors? Do you need to confer with anyone to provide your opinion?
I'm not sure I understand the question. I've been quite clear about resistors; you have been asking about distortion as a general phenomenon.
The selection of a resistor for a particular position in a particular circuit is dependent on basic engineering parameters. As such, they have no "sound," they just cause a circuit to work as designed- or not, if the person selecting the resistors ignores engineering in favor of fashion.
The selection of a resistor for a particular position in a particular circuit is dependent on basic engineering parameters. As such, they have no "sound," they just cause a circuit to work as designed- or not, if the person selecting the resistors ignores engineering in favor of fashion.
I see you have expanded the subject in your reply. Now I need to ask you if you believe a certain level of distortion can change what we hear in addition to whether the different resistor parasitic characteristics make an audible change. By your restricted definition, no component has a sound but all of them contribute to the produced waveform so from another perspective, they all have 'a sound'. Should I assume that you don't believe resistors can have different parasitic characteristics? BTW, that was another fine attempt at obfuscation. You are quite good at this particular skill, it would make you quite valuable in certain situations but completely useless to anyone trying to learn anything from you. Deflection, dilation, obfuscation, etc., I've noted women excel at these kind of discussion skills too. Working as a career perfunctory or being married a long time might be how you came to be so accomplished at it
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He's a sy intest and so, try's to keep opinions to himself. So he states facts and supports them with documentation, figures or double blind listening tests. Thank cod he's not another " my wife could hear the differance in the kitchen" guy. As most of them really don't contribute anything to the collective knowledge of this forum.
Okay, so you do believe resistors have parasitic characteristics. One down. Do you believe these parasitic characteristics have the ability to alter electrical signals?
cbdb, it would be great if SY actually did that but I don't see a single link to anything in his posts that supports his position, whatever that is because he still hasn't defined it
cbdb, it would be great if SY actually did that but I don't see a single link to anything in his posts that supports his position, whatever that is because he still hasn't defined it
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I generally don't like to feed trolls, but...
What is the magnitude of parasitic reactances found in a typical resistor? By how much do they vary from one resistor to another? How do they compare to the resistance? That is, of the total impedance presented by a resistor within the audio band, how much of that impedance is contributed by parasitics? Given that, how much will it change the response of a circuit within the audio band? Outside the audio band?
Go grab some datasheets and a pencil, and you can probably start to answer some of those questions for yourself.
What is the magnitude of parasitic reactances found in a typical resistor? By how much do they vary from one resistor to another? How do they compare to the resistance? That is, of the total impedance presented by a resistor within the audio band, how much of that impedance is contributed by parasitics? Given that, how much will it change the response of a circuit within the audio band? Outside the audio band?
Go grab some datasheets and a pencil, and you can probably start to answer some of those questions for yourself.
Can you cite any component free of parasitic characteristics, and if it isn't case, can you cite any parasitic-affected component that doesn't affect electrical characteristics (>Hint<: parasitic behavior is defined using electrical characteristics)
Yes, I've done those calculations and the numbers are minute but we aren't at the point of discussing their audibility yet. I've been spending the last few pages trying to get SY to admit they exist at all. If he will admit these parasitic characteristics can alter electrical waveforms we can then bring the discussion to its conclusion about their audibility and isn't that the point of all this? When you consider that, is the troll the person trying to get to the truth or the one trying to keep it from coming out?
You horrible person, you! That would involve looking things up and doing analysis of circuits! My goodness, I had always thought you were a polite and friendly fellow, but here, the mask has clearly slipped!
Hi,
Read Elvee's post just a bit above yours and you'll have your answer.
Not saying you're asking silly questions but no passive component is perfect.
Manufacturers use various techniques to build these components so obviously, yes, they're all going to be somewhat different from one brand to another.
Audible? A single component, not quite likely.
Used throughout, possibly audible depending on a number of factors.
Either way, IMHO, the possibility of building a good amp is far higher than finding a flawless recording or set of speakers so at the ends of the day you're still stuck with a dilemma.
That said, yes some manufacturers are aware of the sonic signature of passive and active components. These all add distortions somehow obviously but as far as I know nobody did any distortion analysis between resistor X of brand Y and resistor X of brand Z.
Differences in perceived sound always translate in some sort of distortion don't they?
Sometimes audiophiles do the homework for engineers too and that catches on. Sometimes it's anybody's guess and sometimes we're just on the wrong track because of lack of correct information.
Fact is, no one is going to do research in a field of such little commercial interest unless the interest is generated somehow.
Either way, it's gonna cost ya.
So, in my book, the question one should ask is what passive components are exhibiting the least distortion and under what circumstances, etc..
After that, it would be great to find out why. And, I think we know the answer to that already, don't we?
Cheers,
Read Elvee's post just a bit above yours and you'll have your answer.
Not saying you're asking silly questions but no passive component is perfect.
Manufacturers use various techniques to build these components so obviously, yes, they're all going to be somewhat different from one brand to another.
Audible? A single component, not quite likely.
Used throughout, possibly audible depending on a number of factors.
Either way, IMHO, the possibility of building a good amp is far higher than finding a flawless recording or set of speakers so at the ends of the day you're still stuck with a dilemma.
That said, yes some manufacturers are aware of the sonic signature of passive and active components. These all add distortions somehow obviously but as far as I know nobody did any distortion analysis between resistor X of brand Y and resistor X of brand Z.
Differences in perceived sound always translate in some sort of distortion don't they?
Sometimes audiophiles do the homework for engineers too and that catches on. Sometimes it's anybody's guess and sometimes we're just on the wrong track because of lack of correct information.
Fact is, no one is going to do research in a field of such little commercial interest unless the interest is generated somehow.
Either way, it's gonna cost ya.
So, in my book, the question one should ask is what passive components are exhibiting the least distortion and under what circumstances, etc..
After that, it would be great to find out why. And, I think we know the answer to that already, don't we?
Cheers,
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I had my answers prior to this game of cat and mouse with SY (see my post #621 in this thread). I've been looking through some of his past posts and I still can't tell if it's an act to annoy/provoke the membership or if he really is that obtuse
He'll describe your very direct questions as 'vague', possibly pretend to not understand what is being asked of him and when confronted with a request for a yes or no reply, he'll change the subject or ignore you as he did me. The forum has rules that discourage this kind of bandwidth wasting nonsense and it also has rules about posting things that are wrong or misleading on purpose. Any other member doing this kind of thing would likely get a sin bin visit but I guess SY has a different rule set. I suppose it doesn't matter at this point, he saw the checkmate coming and so did many reading here. It doesn't surprise me that he would resign rather than argue a losing position to its conclusion. If it is just SY having a laugh, you might well ask who the victims are in this kind of seemingly innocent game play. Well, those who are unsure whether it matters will continue in this unfortunate limbo state and those entrenched in their positions for what ever personal or professional reason will have less motivation to move closer to a truer position and that in turn will effect the products that work their way into the marketplace. The example given earlier of the high GNFB, 1Khz THD standard test era is a poignant illustration of this scenario.
Just for the record, has any moderator ever been sin-binned by their peers in the history of this forum (assuming there even is a working mechanism for this function)?
He'll describe your very direct questions as 'vague', possibly pretend to not understand what is being asked of him and when confronted with a request for a yes or no reply, he'll change the subject or ignore you as he did me. The forum has rules that discourage this kind of bandwidth wasting nonsense and it also has rules about posting things that are wrong or misleading on purpose. Any other member doing this kind of thing would likely get a sin bin visit but I guess SY has a different rule set. I suppose it doesn't matter at this point, he saw the checkmate coming and so did many reading here. It doesn't surprise me that he would resign rather than argue a losing position to its conclusion. If it is just SY having a laugh, you might well ask who the victims are in this kind of seemingly innocent game play. Well, those who are unsure whether it matters will continue in this unfortunate limbo state and those entrenched in their positions for what ever personal or professional reason will have less motivation to move closer to a truer position and that in turn will effect the products that work their way into the marketplace. The example given earlier of the high GNFB, 1Khz THD standard test era is a poignant illustration of this scenario.
Just for the record, has any moderator ever been sin-binned by their peers in the history of this forum (assuming there even is a working mechanism for this function)?
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