Hi Protos
I did of course not want to discourage anyone.
If Dorkus wants to test which resistor is the best sounding in his attenuator then he should of course do so and then I think he should do it with his potentiometer connected as well.
What I question (I do not deny it at all, I just like to give a discussion point) is if such a test would be gnerally valid. I.e. will the resistor that sounds best (which is also a matter of taste) in this application, be the best one in general ?
Regards
Charles
I did of course not want to discourage anyone.
If Dorkus wants to test which resistor is the best sounding in his attenuator then he should of course do so and then I think he should do it with his potentiometer connected as well.
What I question (I do not deny it at all, I just like to give a discussion point) is if such a test would be gnerally valid. I.e. will the resistor that sounds best (which is also a matter of taste) in this application, be the best one in general ?
Regards
Charles
phase_accurate said:
Probably you are right. I was comparing Holcos and Caddocks for I/V conversion in my DAC and I preferred Holco, although Caddock is generally considered to be a better resistor.
Dorkus, I would stay with a rotary switch in the beginning, because it will make things more easier. The resistors are for preamp I guess
, so you'll be using some kind of source switching anyway (so actually it may be better to test them witha switch), just use a good one. When you narrow your choice to 2 or 3 resistors you can go one step further and test them without a switch.I got those cheap RCA jacks imitations. If anyone is interested I can sell them at $2.50 a pc.
Terry,
Peter Qvortrup from AudioNote UK intitially sold Shinko Tantalums and they, atleast my samples, are not magnetic.
TMK Shinko are hard to get and so i suppose AudioNote UK sells other tantalums. If they have magnetic end caps, my, too bad, but i doubt you get them cheaper therefore.
Charles, i agree with that. But dorkus' test can tell if he likes the minute sonic influences that make him cuddle into the music or run away from it or something in between. If you read my post completely, you will find that i hint particularly to thoses entirety long-term-listening and focus/attention criteria, not to clearly AB-able Hifi detail criteria.
If you insert a component adding nastiness to sonics, this part will more or less add its mess to general sonics, no matter where inserted. Okok, its influence will be stronger the closer it is linked to the signal.
protos,
Peter Daniel,
Caddock
Holco nonmagnetic
magnetic 
Mills WW
Shinko Tantalum
Corning Tantalum
Vishay
Isaplan/Isabellenhütte
my impression so far. I refuse to pay the prices asked for Caddocks over here.
I got Isaplans 0R47 for my AKSA amp as emitter resistors, i am not going to solder the magnetic ceramic-potted bleeder resistors in that Hugh Dean supplied.
Peter Qvortrup from AudioNote UK intitially sold Shinko Tantalums and they, atleast my samples, are not magnetic.
TMK Shinko are hard to get and so i suppose AudioNote UK sells other tantalums. If they have magnetic end caps, my, too bad
, but i doubt you get them cheaper therefore.Charles, i agree with that. But dorkus' test can tell if he likes the minute sonic influences that make him cuddle into the music or run away from it or something in between. If you read my post completely, you will find that i hint particularly to thoses entirety long-term-listening and focus/attention criteria, not to clearly AB-able Hifi detail criteria.
If you insert a component adding nastiness to sonics, this part will more or less add its mess to general sonics, no matter where inserted. Okok, its influence will be stronger the closer it is linked to the signal.
protos,
Peter Daniel,
Caddock
Holco nonmagnetic
magnetic Mills WW
Shinko Tantalum
Corning Tantalum
Vishay
Isaplan/Isabellenhütte
my impression so far. I refuse to pay the prices asked for Caddocks over here.
I got Isaplans 0R47 for my AKSA amp as emitter resistors, i am not going to solder the magnetic ceramic-potted bleeder resistors in that Hugh Dean supplied.
dice45 said:Terry,
Peter Qvortrup from AudioNote UK intitially sold Shinko Tantalums and they, atleast my samples, are not magnetic.
TMK Shinko are hard to get and so i suppose AudioNote UK sells other tantalums. If they have magnetic end caps, my, too bad
Thanks,
I will question him WRT this. So I am searching again
for decent non mag end cap Tantalum R's.
Has anyone tried Vishay thick film (TO220) R's (not bulk foil).
They are reasonably priced.
Do you know other suppliers of Tant's?
Regs,
Terry
<i>"So I am searching again for decent non mag end cap Tantalum R's."</i>
It seems the tantalum resistors from <a href="http://www.partsconnexion.com/">Parts Connexion</a> are Magnetic as well.
One of the few uses I know of that mandates non-magnetic components are NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) machines as the fields they use would pull them of the boards.
Regards
James
It seems the tantalum resistors from <a href="http://www.partsconnexion.com/">Parts Connexion</a> are Magnetic as well.
One of the few uses I know of that mandates non-magnetic components are NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) machines as the fields they use would pull them of the boards.
Regards
James
hi everyone,
as with another thread, i stopped receiving email notifications so didn't look here for a while.
bernhard, interesting that you don't like caddocks. i've only used them once a little bit (in my DAC output stage) and i couldn't really tell how good they were due to the other changes i made to the circuit as well. but i was not blown away by the sound with them, i thought perhaps they were very clean but a little bright.
i agree that the application of a device greatly affects its perceived sound quality. this test is not meant to be exhaustive or authoritative by any means, rather i just want to get something of a handle on the "sound" of these resistors. i admit that using a pot and switch will obscure subtleties a tad, but i'm not looking to discern every liast minute characteristic. i just want to get a taste of the different sonic signatures available, so my switched setup would be a "palette" of resistors if you will. my listening tests are more to throw out the resistors i don't like than crown any one type the champion. once i narrow it down to 2 or 3 that i do think i like, i can do more exhaustive testing in different applications. right now i only have the vaguest of clues what these things sound like so i think it'll be a good first step.
cheers,
dorkus
as with another thread, i stopped receiving email notifications so didn't look here for a while.
bernhard, interesting that you don't like caddocks. i've only used them once a little bit (in my DAC output stage) and i couldn't really tell how good they were due to the other changes i made to the circuit as well. but i was not blown away by the sound with them, i thought perhaps they were very clean but a little bright.
i agree that the application of a device greatly affects its perceived sound quality. this test is not meant to be exhaustive or authoritative by any means, rather i just want to get something of a handle on the "sound" of these resistors. i admit that using a pot and switch will obscure subtleties a tad, but i'm not looking to discern every liast minute characteristic. i just want to get a taste of the different sonic signatures available, so my switched setup would be a "palette" of resistors if you will. my listening tests are more to throw out the resistors i don't like than crown any one type the champion. once i narrow it down to 2 or 3 that i do think i like, i can do more exhaustive testing in different applications. right now i only have the vaguest of clues what these things sound like so i think it'll be a good first step.
cheers,
dorkus
Tatalum
Terry,
AN UK and CA and Parts Connexion sell the new resistors i.e. magnetic end-cap. The remaining stock at www.angelainstruments.com is non-magnetic.
Let me tell you that magnetic sucks big time. I paid a premium for 1 watt 10 ohms to put into my tube amp and get worst sound then by using generic carbons...
Regards,
Daniel Trudeau
Terry,
AN UK and CA and Parts Connexion sell the new resistors i.e. magnetic end-cap. The remaining stock at www.angelainstruments.com is non-magnetic.
Let me tell you that magnetic sucks big time. I paid a premium for 1 watt 10 ohms to put into my tube amp and get worst sound then by using generic carbons...
Regards,
Daniel Trudeau
Oops!
I make a mistake in the link: it's www.angela.com for the Angela Instruments website.
Sorry.
Daniel Trudeau
I make a mistake in the link: it's www.angela.com for the Angela Instruments website.
Sorry.
Daniel Trudeau
peter,
hey, those look very similar to the ones i used to get at parts express, except with a hex outer body. how is the plate quality? one problem i've had with the cheap imitations (except the ones i used to like) is the gold plate was really crappy and would wear off very quickly, revealing a base nickel plate below. where'd you get these?
i might give the RS ones a shot too. i know the parts they carry at retail stores suck but these are different (from commercial sales), might be one of those nice-quality chinese imatations.
cheers,
dorkus
hey, those look very similar to the ones i used to get at parts express, except with a hex outer body. how is the plate quality? one problem i've had with the cheap imitations (except the ones i used to like) is the gold plate was really crappy and would wear off very quickly, revealing a base nickel plate below. where'd you get these?
i might give the RS ones a shot too. i know the parts they carry at retail stores suck but these are different (from commercial sales), might be one of those nice-quality chinese imatations.
cheers,
dorkus
putting up resistance
Everything you want to know about resistors and were not afraid to ask.
The Caddock MK-132s are great sounding resistors. They are very popular with tweakers and some very serious high end designers. Please keep in mind that many things affect what resistor sounds best in a given circuit. I have found that signal levels, the amount DC current, and the location in the circuit may have a bearing on which resistor to use. Also interesting is that many designers of tube equipment still swear that NOS Allen Bradly carbon composistion are that best sounding that you can get.
I get very amused when I hear all the name dropping of the usual names like Caddock, Vishay, Corning ect, with no mention of the series type. The different series are made with different films and substrate materials, and terminations.The value of the resistance will also effect film type and resulting temco. I find the tempco to be the most useful spec and there is a pretty good correlation between tempco and sonics. The physical size has a distinct bearing on the sonics and many oversized resistors sound better than thier lower wattage cousins. Marantz knew this in the seventies on their Mid Fi.
The way, the best sounding Corning resistors than I have used are the RN60D and larger series. The Cornings use glass instead of the usual ceramic substrate. My favorite budget resistor by far! These were a long time favorite of Conrad Johnston. I had a local surplus place that had dozens of values. I went in one day and all the resistors were gone. They had cleaned the capets and the cleaning fluid turned the leads black so THEY THREW THEM ALL AWAY! The closest I ever came to crying in front of a stranger. I would have bougt all of them and a gross of xacto blades.
My first experience with the Vishays war right after Ben Duncan talked about them in HiFi News a long.long,long time ago. The local rep brought some samples to the very small telecom company were I worked. After giving me the evil eye and informing me that he was used to calling on customers like NASA, R and D labs, and defence contracters. He demanded to know what I was going to do with my expensive samples. I told him that I was going to put them in stereo. He left hurriedly and never called again. Kind of ironic in hindsight isn't it? The best resistors I have heard are the Caddock TF series big and expensive and available from Micheal Percy. Better than the Vishay bulk metal foils. The best place to hear the effect of a resistor change are the feed back resistors, cartridge loadind resistors, and I to V resistors in a DAC. Changing all the resistors in a circuit will really tell you about a resistor type's sound. I would build a circuit with all of the same type and get used to the sound after weeks of break in first. Then change the important ones mentioned above to the expensive types in so inclined to spend some serious money. This is along term project which took me several years to feel competent enough at it to offer the above advice. But this was before the internet and people becoming self proclaimed experts based on 20th generation rumors and hearsay. Do the work and make up your own mind and learn something in the process.
Some one once asked how to become an expert on art. The answer? Look at about a million paintings. Do the work. You will never learn to hear by only reading about it. The hysteria over magnetic material is acheving the status of an Urban Legend by the way and I have heard some pretty good resistor with magnetic end caps and some pretty bad non magnetic resistors. I guess some of these gurus have swapped just the end caps and eliminated all the other vairables. I hope nobody puts a magnet near thiere big buck tubes. It might ruin thier day.
Everything you want to know about resistors and were not afraid to ask.
The Caddock MK-132s are great sounding resistors. They are very popular with tweakers and some very serious high end designers. Please keep in mind that many things affect what resistor sounds best in a given circuit. I have found that signal levels, the amount DC current, and the location in the circuit may have a bearing on which resistor to use. Also interesting is that many designers of tube equipment still swear that NOS Allen Bradly carbon composistion are that best sounding that you can get.
I get very amused when I hear all the name dropping of the usual names like Caddock, Vishay, Corning ect, with no mention of the series type. The different series are made with different films and substrate materials, and terminations.The value of the resistance will also effect film type and resulting temco. I find the tempco to be the most useful spec and there is a pretty good correlation between tempco and sonics. The physical size has a distinct bearing on the sonics and many oversized resistors sound better than thier lower wattage cousins. Marantz knew this in the seventies on their Mid Fi.
The way, the best sounding Corning resistors than I have used are the RN60D and larger series. The Cornings use glass instead of the usual ceramic substrate. My favorite budget resistor by far! These were a long time favorite of Conrad Johnston. I had a local surplus place that had dozens of values. I went in one day and all the resistors were gone. They had cleaned the capets and the cleaning fluid turned the leads black so THEY THREW THEM ALL AWAY! The closest I ever came to crying in front of a stranger. I would have bougt all of them and a gross of xacto blades.
My first experience with the Vishays war right after Ben Duncan talked about them in HiFi News a long.long,long time ago. The local rep brought some samples to the very small telecom company were I worked. After giving me the evil eye and informing me that he was used to calling on customers like NASA, R and D labs, and defence contracters. He demanded to know what I was going to do with my expensive samples. I told him that I was going to put them in stereo. He left hurriedly and never called again. Kind of ironic in hindsight isn't it? The best resistors I have heard are the Caddock TF series big and expensive and available from Micheal Percy. Better than the Vishay bulk metal foils. The best place to hear the effect of a resistor change are the feed back resistors, cartridge loadind resistors, and I to V resistors in a DAC. Changing all the resistors in a circuit will really tell you about a resistor type's sound. I would build a circuit with all of the same type and get used to the sound after weeks of break in first. Then change the important ones mentioned above to the expensive types in so inclined to spend some serious money. This is along term project which took me several years to feel competent enough at it to offer the above advice. But this was before the internet and people becoming self proclaimed experts based on 20th generation rumors and hearsay. Do the work and make up your own mind and learn something in the process.
Some one once asked how to become an expert on art. The answer? Look at about a million paintings. Do the work. You will never learn to hear by only reading about it. The hysteria over magnetic material is acheving the status of an Urban Legend by the way and I have heard some pretty good resistor with magnetic end caps and some pretty bad non magnetic resistors. I guess some of these gurus have swapped just the end caps and eliminated all the other vairables. I hope nobody puts a magnet near thiere big buck tubes. It might ruin thier day.
hi elwood,
agreed, of course there is no substitute for personal experimentation and experience. i ask for people opinions basically to save me some time, i don't really have the luxury of trying every resistor under the sun in every possible application. once i get a feel for what's popular among ears i trust (Bernhard, Peter, yours, etc.), i'll leave the final verdict to my own experimentation of course.
that said, your comments line up very much with general impressions i've heard from other experimenters. specifically - both caddock series very good, TF even better than vishay S102 to some. i have also heard good things about the old Corning glass resistors, it's a pity they're no longer made. usually when we mention a brand name w/o mention of the model, we're referring to the most "popular" type among audiophiles. in the case of Caddock, MK and TF; in the case of Vishay, S102. basically whatever Michael Percy carries. incidentally, you can get Caddock TF from big places like Allied Electronics as well, but surprisingly Percy's prices are better even in quantities of 100. i think his prices in general are extremely fair.
cheers,
dorkus
agreed, of course there is no substitute for personal experimentation and experience. i ask for people opinions basically to save me some time, i don't really have the luxury of trying every resistor under the sun in every possible application. once i get a feel for what's popular among ears i trust (Bernhard, Peter, yours, etc.), i'll leave the final verdict to my own experimentation of course.
that said, your comments line up very much with general impressions i've heard from other experimenters. specifically - both caddock series very good, TF even better than vishay S102 to some. i have also heard good things about the old Corning glass resistors, it's a pity they're no longer made. usually when we mention a brand name w/o mention of the model, we're referring to the most "popular" type among audiophiles. in the case of Caddock, MK and TF; in the case of Vishay, S102. basically whatever Michael Percy carries. incidentally, you can get Caddock TF from big places like Allied Electronics as well, but surprisingly Percy's prices are better even in quantities of 100. i think his prices in general are extremely fair.
cheers,
dorkus
Tantalums in IV feedback stage?
I replaced vishay vsh with magnetic holco H4Ps from PartsConnexion in my IV feedback stage.
From what I can see, it seems that Tantallums may have been a better choice.
Do you think it is worth doing a comparison with say the S102s or even the Z201 vishays and the tantallums in this position?
Am I just being obsessive?
All suggestions appreciated
I replaced vishay vsh with magnetic holco H4Ps from PartsConnexion in my IV feedback stage.
From what I can see, it seems that Tantallums may have been a better choice.
Do you think it is worth doing a comparison with say the S102s or even the Z201 vishays and the tantallums in this position?
Am I just being obsessive?
All suggestions appreciated
Hello,
From what I hear the Shinko and Riken should not be magnetic,Bernhard has reported he likes the Corning tants as well.
Peter,
I use the Vishays in feedback loops or anything else in series with the signalpath.
Their inherently non-inductive and can be had in extremely tight tolerances.
I find the S102 hard to fault.Like'm a lot.
Greetz,
From what I hear the Shinko and Riken should not be magnetic,Bernhard has reported he likes the Corning tants as well.
Peter,
I use the Vishays in feedback loops or anything else in series with the signalpath.
Their inherently non-inductive and can be had in extremely tight tolerances.
I find the S102 hard to fault.Like'm a lot.
Greetz,
vishay versus tantalus.
Peter,
Short of trying every possible combination I consistently have prefered Vishay in the situations described in previous posts of mine.
To me they approach the ideal of what a resistor should be:
a purely resistive element,laser trimmed for precision.
If you want to go to the extreme,they're even available as nude resistive elements doing away with all substrate.
Ask yourself what other resistors are made of and I assume you'll see my point.
Again I stress the importance of the law of diminishing returns.
Some manufactures go flat out to the extreme.
At the end of the day it will all depend on the resolving power of the system these are put to service in.
As for tantulum resitors:very low noise and available in wattages up to 2W I believe.
Although I like these in tube gear,I don't see why they wouldn't sound excelent in more sandy environments as well.
I always try to steer clear from components that are (can be) used to hide problems elsewhere.
That is IMO the only way to progress.
Happy listening,
Peter,
Short of trying every possible combination I consistently have prefered Vishay in the situations described in previous posts of mine.
To me they approach the ideal of what a resistor should be:
a purely resistive element,laser trimmed for precision.
If you want to go to the extreme,they're even available as nude resistive elements doing away with all substrate.
Ask yourself what other resistors are made of and I assume you'll see my point.
Again I stress the importance of the law of diminishing returns.
Some manufactures go flat out to the extreme.
At the end of the day it will all depend on the resolving power of the system these are put to service in.
As for tantulum resitors:very low noise and available in wattages up to 2W I believe.
Although I like these in tube gear,I don't see why they wouldn't sound excelent in more sandy environments as well.
I always try to steer clear from components that are (can be) used to hide problems elsewhere.
That is IMO the only way to progress.
Happy listening,
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