A top quality measurement microphone then,can pick up things our ears cannot even dream of.Put such a microphone at the listening position you usually listen to your music.Connect the microphone to the best mic amp you want,play some music and record it on the best recorder you want(that is record what comes out of your speakers).Then play back this recording through your system.That's what the microphone hears.Now,what it measures is another story and personally I couldn't care less.Stupid comment?Perhaps.But that is what a "faultless measurment instrument"like a microphone hears for me.I guess that you will tell me that the mic captures the room problems etc.......Agreed.The ear has the privilage and luxury not to hear these problems to that extend.It was never meant to do this.
To those who proclaim and have heard differences: remember that this forum is typically populated by engineering types where theoretically different power cords should make no difference. And they may believe this to the core of their being - because it is not measurable it doesn't exist. It's their choice to put their money where they think it does the most good, whether that be in the design of the circuit or the wire used to feed it.
To those who are engineers and believe in measurements only: remember that audio is a hobby. Hobbiests can easily go to extremes and believe in many things that may not jive with your view of the universe. Please let them have their fun, after all, the money is coming out of their pockets not yours.
To those who are of a scientific mindset: Try it for yourself using any method you deem worthy for verification. You may be surprised, but you definitely won't know until you experiment with it.
Enjoy,
Bob
To those who are engineers and believe in measurements only: remember that audio is a hobby. Hobbiests can easily go to extremes and believe in many things that may not jive with your view of the universe. Please let them have their fun, after all, the money is coming out of their pockets not yours.
To those who are of a scientific mindset: Try it for yourself using any method you deem worthy for verification. You may be surprised, but you definitely won't know until you experiment with it.
Enjoy,
Bob
Evenharmonics said:
Harmony between senses and brain is what counts for me.All is useless without one another.
However,if you read all posts very carefully,you will agree that the non believer side is very much concearned about the cable prices,as if all the others are millioners.They speak as if they know that everyone who dares to say about his cables paid thousands on them.If a silver cable cost $25,all would have had one or two pairs
The issue has been addressed skilfully, partly to the cost matter.In the end if you are not an engineer,your chances of being rich or idot are many I have a very solid opinion about what I'm telling you now,and I'm sure many engineers agree.I've said it before and I'll say it again,many engineers can tell the diference but say nothing.Reason?They will find themselves with backs against the wall by their community and they just don't want this.
First off, I am an engineer. Would I believe that there are real audible quantities out there that I can not measure? ABSOLUTELY! Science and measurement technology is expanding daily. When I started experimenting with audio, we could barely measure 0.1% distortion, now anyone with a PC can measure two orders of magnitude better. Of course the PC, and the CD were not invented then.
Do I believe that a $699 power cord could sound better than the one that I liberated off of an old PC? Maybe. It all depends on the amplifier and how well its power supply was designed. In the perfect world every amplifier would have a well filtered and regulated power supply that wouldn't care if it was fed with two strands of coat hanger. But in the real world every amp must meet cost and size constraints that force a non zero output impedance from the power supply. Hence it is POSSIBLE that the source wiring could make a difference.
Would I buy a $699 power cord? No way. My entire system from the CD player to the speakers costs slightly more than this. As I said before the power cord came from an old PC, the speaker wire? WalMart! (car audio dept, 14 gauge $12 a roll). CD, player? A Toshiba DVD player from the close out table at Sams club. Where was the money spent? $300 for decent quality Yamaha studio monitor speakers (on sale at Sam Ash music) $100 for a pair of Chinese 300B's and $200 for Electra Print OPT's.
My point? Spend the money where it counts first, then if every thing else is good, AND you have the budget, you can pop for the $700 power cords and the $1000 speaker cables. In ANY HiFi system the speakers are the weakest link. In ANY tube HiFi system the next most important item is the OPT. This is the place to concentrate on upgrades. Good tubes (not necessarily expensive tubes) is next along with the power supply components and the coupling caps, then some of the critical resistors. Any and all of these things should be addressed before thinking about power cords, speaker wire and interconnects (provided the current ones are not defective).
The original poster mentioned a tube type RECEIVER. Since these haven't been made in years there are likely several other things to be addressed first in the name of sound. Most old receivers were an exercise in compromize, and there is usually little room for upgrading OPT's. The toasted caps resistors and tubes are far above the power cord on my list though.
Safety is another matter. Most old receivers came with a two wire power cord that has been around for at least 35 years. What would I do? Probably replace it with the power cord from an old PC, but that is just my opinion.
Do I believe that a $699 power cord could sound better than the one that I liberated off of an old PC? Maybe. It all depends on the amplifier and how well its power supply was designed. In the perfect world every amplifier would have a well filtered and regulated power supply that wouldn't care if it was fed with two strands of coat hanger. But in the real world every amp must meet cost and size constraints that force a non zero output impedance from the power supply. Hence it is POSSIBLE that the source wiring could make a difference.
Would I buy a $699 power cord? No way. My entire system from the CD player to the speakers costs slightly more than this. As I said before the power cord came from an old PC, the speaker wire? WalMart! (car audio dept, 14 gauge $12 a roll). CD, player? A Toshiba DVD player from the close out table at Sams club. Where was the money spent? $300 for decent quality Yamaha studio monitor speakers (on sale at Sam Ash music) $100 for a pair of Chinese 300B's and $200 for Electra Print OPT's.
My point? Spend the money where it counts first, then if every thing else is good, AND you have the budget, you can pop for the $700 power cords and the $1000 speaker cables. In ANY HiFi system the speakers are the weakest link. In ANY tube HiFi system the next most important item is the OPT. This is the place to concentrate on upgrades. Good tubes (not necessarily expensive tubes) is next along with the power supply components and the coupling caps, then some of the critical resistors. Any and all of these things should be addressed before thinking about power cords, speaker wire and interconnects (provided the current ones are not defective).
The original poster mentioned a tube type RECEIVER. Since these haven't been made in years there are likely several other things to be addressed first in the name of sound. Most old receivers were an exercise in compromize, and there is usually little room for upgrading OPT's. The toasted caps resistors and tubes are far above the power cord on my list though.
Safety is another matter. Most old receivers came with a two wire power cord that has been around for at least 35 years. What would I do? Probably replace it with the power cord from an old PC, but that is just my opinion.
tubelab.com if there was a prize for the best post in all these cable threads,yours would get my vote(although this might not be of interest to anyone)because: One,you accept that there might be "audible quantities"that cannot be measured,Two:..."spent the money wher it counts FIRST",and Three:"MAYBE an expensive cable sounds better than a pc power cable".
Tubelab said:
Not to pick on you directly Tubelab, because I think many people may fall into this category, but I think that at the $699 price point your system might not be resolving enough to be able to hear the difference between power cords.
I know of several engineering and scientific community types recently converted who previously swore off power cord differences. All they needed to do was hear the difference for themselves in a sufficiently resolving system. I can't explain it, and neither could they, but we all heard the difference.
pont missed
so now we have the spurious argument that "engineers" can't or won't hear wit hte hsame insight that he delcately tuned ear of the true afficionado.
Bollocks.
I have no problem with ANYONE claiming a certain item makes a surprising and significant difference to anything - as long as they use a suitable and unbiased method of proving their claim. Until then, they are just making an unsubstantiated claim - no more weight that air.
SO, if you want ot prove a difference - gather fifty normal people, set up a blind test regeime that allows for the instant side by side comparison of two unidentified samples. DOn't say a thing to the 50 subjects - just let them describe what they hear.
THen let us know what hte outcome is.
so now we have the spurious argument that "engineers" can't or won't hear wit hte hsame insight that he delcately tuned ear of the true afficionado.
Bollocks.
I have no problem with ANYONE claiming a certain item makes a surprising and significant difference to anything - as long as they use a suitable and unbiased method of proving their claim. Until then, they are just making an unsubstantiated claim - no more weight that air.
SO, if you want ot prove a difference - gather fifty normal people, set up a blind test regeime that allows for the instant side by side comparison of two unidentified samples. DOn't say a thing to the 50 subjects - just let them describe what they hear.
THen let us know what hte outcome is.
I did not accuse anyone of being incapable of hearing a difference. I did not accuse engineers in general of being incapable of hearing a difference. Those are your words.
I did say that some people's preconceptions (on both sides) are making them closed minded to both opinions. I respect your right to believe there is no difference. Please respect the opinion of those that believe there can be.
Not all cords will result in a difference. Much of the industry is full of charlatans and bollocks (as you say). Even where there is a difference it can be subtle.
So, if you're not willing to try it for yourself in a sufficiently revealing system, with significantly different cables in order to come to an educated decision, then there is absolutely no way of convincing you otherwise in a forum situation.
I'm gone.
I did say that some people's preconceptions (on both sides) are making them closed minded to both opinions. I respect your right to believe there is no difference. Please respect the opinion of those that believe there can be.
Not all cords will result in a difference. Much of the industry is full of charlatans and bollocks (as you say). Even where there is a difference it can be subtle.
So, if you're not willing to try it for yourself in a sufficiently revealing system, with significantly different cables in order to come to an educated decision, then there is absolutely no way of convincing you otherwise in a forum situation.
I'm gone.
Nor that either. When I first got into electronics 25 years ago, it was difficult to measure <0.1% with any real accuracy, unless you had access to dedicated gear; this is what tubelab states. Today, it is as easy as pie, and much, much higher resolution is possible for a typical schmuck with a PC. For those with an Audio Precision, it is much better still.Panicos K said:
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