Drew said:
Or a patronizing wife, or coincidence, or...
Bottom line it's just another anecdote among thousands of other anecdotes. In other words, pretty much meaningless.
Ok, let's look at it that way.
Greater resistance simply means a greater voltage drop across that resistance.
So, let's take your basic weedy 18 gauge power cord. 18 gauge wire has a resistance of about 6 milliohms per foot. So, two six foot lengths (hot and neutral) amounts to about 72 milliohms.
Now let's say that your amp or whatever is drawing 10 amps from the AC line. 10 amps through 72 millioms gives a voltage drop of 0.72 volts.
So instead of feeding your amp 120 volts, it's being fed 119.28 volts. A difference of what, 0.6%?
se
Now Steve that's just silly. You should know that the specific 0.6% in question constitutes those exact vocal subtleties and musical inflexions to which those of us with platinum-lined, palladium-plated and rubidium-infused golden ears are most sensitive...
tsk, tsk...
BTW, IMHO PC=pure crapola...
one of the dumbest thing I see fellow audiophiles do (usually egged on by pro "modders") is to take an equipment with attached power cord and cut a hole at the back to put in an IEC socket - so that they can have the dubious pleasure of trying out different exotic power cords.
They have effectively added 2 physical contacts (not counting earth), 4 pieces of metal bars (the 2 prongs in the IEC socket and the 2 grips in the plug, typically nickel plated brass, perhaps "cryo-ed") plus 4 solder joints (ok, max 4% silver) to the path.
Afterwards they claim to hear a difference. Well, perhaps it's not implausible.
So I say, change to a better cord than stock if you must, but should keep the original hardwired arrangement.
They have effectively added 2 physical contacts (not counting earth), 4 pieces of metal bars (the 2 prongs in the IEC socket and the 2 grips in the plug, typically nickel plated brass, perhaps "cryo-ed") plus 4 solder joints (ok, max 4% silver) to the path.
Afterwards they claim to hear a difference. Well, perhaps it's not implausible.
So I say, change to a better cord than stock if you must, but should keep the original hardwired arrangement.
The mistake often made in this argument is to think of the power cord as a single part.
Power cords (for our purposes) are made of wire with connectors at either end.
The wire between the connectors IMO is the least critical part of the design. Just like with interconnects the connectors are where most of the problems are introduced.
It would not be sensible to think that all connector materials and all connector construction is identical. So it is logical to assume differences.
Who says those differences are audible?
A lot of people who's opinions I value say they are.
Although I have not yet taken the opportunity to compare power cords I believe the people who say they make a difference.
These people, for the most part, come from a place where they are skeptical at first and then are converted through an experience or experiences.
The people who claim there are no differences to be heard always fall back on two things. The fact that there are no obvious ways to measure differences and that after market power cords are a bad value.
These are poor bases to mount an argument from.
It couldn't matter any less what a machine (scope) says a product should sound like. We don't listen with machines, trust your ears.
As for value.
Who are you to say what is a good value for someone else?
Why do you care how a particular fool and his money are parted?
I don’t understand why some people are personally offended by cable prices.
I personally would not spend any money on a manufactured interconnect or power cord because I believe I can do better for less by making it myself.
So if it's an argument between people who say there should be no difference and those that hear a difference then there is no contest IMO as to who is right.
Power cords (for our purposes) are made of wire with connectors at either end.
The wire between the connectors IMO is the least critical part of the design. Just like with interconnects the connectors are where most of the problems are introduced.
It would not be sensible to think that all connector materials and all connector construction is identical. So it is logical to assume differences.
Who says those differences are audible?
A lot of people who's opinions I value say they are.
Although I have not yet taken the opportunity to compare power cords I believe the people who say they make a difference.
These people, for the most part, come from a place where they are skeptical at first and then are converted through an experience or experiences.
The people who claim there are no differences to be heard always fall back on two things. The fact that there are no obvious ways to measure differences and that after market power cords are a bad value.
These are poor bases to mount an argument from.
It couldn't matter any less what a machine (scope) says a product should sound like. We don't listen with machines, trust your ears.
As for value.
Who are you to say what is a good value for someone else?
Why do you care how a particular fool and his money are parted?
I don’t understand why some people are personally offended by cable prices.
I personally would not spend any money on a manufactured interconnect or power cord because I believe I can do better for less by making it myself.
So if it's an argument between people who say there should be no difference and those that hear a difference then there is no contest IMO as to who is right.
analog_sa:
And yet the followers of both remain rigorously devout, undeterred by cost and impervious to the simplest forms of logical reasoning, snugly coccooned in their bubble-subculture of paramedian beliefs.
Perhaps. I look at it like certain, sometimes dubious paramedical cure-alls vs. mainstream medical science. The "intellect" and "listening experience" you refer to are like the homeopathic, aromatherapeutic and aqua-colonic approaches to health. Zero scientific evidence. Pure anecdotal data by devotees of quasi-medical, pseudo-scientific and holistic health bulldust. Much like the audio-religious cord cookers, electret-foil stickers and blue-marker CD painters.
And yet the followers of both remain rigorously devout, undeterred by cost and impervious to the simplest forms of logical reasoning, snugly coccooned in their bubble-subculture of paramedian beliefs.
DrG said:
High-end audio is wholly immune to charlatanry. Leastwise I'm not aware of any instance where anyone has ever been broadly acknowledged to be a charlatan. Not even Peter Belt.
I guess we should count ourselves lucky that no charlatan has ever preyed on the audiophile community. Probably not enough money in it to make it worthwhile to them.
se
Well folks, you`re still chatting about this? Both sides are partly right; expensive powercords are mostly crap - but there IS a differense.
I know, you won`t belive it. But some dark night when you`re all alone, try to make up some solid power-snakes..
- they`re not expensive, not any kind of exotic, they just doesn`t mess up the power like multstranded wires do.
I know, you won`t belive it. But some dark night when you`re all alone, try to make up some solid power-snakes..
- they`re not expensive, not any kind of exotic, they just doesn`t mess up the power like multstranded wires do.
Attachments
Hi,
You mean solid core PCs, right?
I agree, they do make for better coherence across the audio band and give better focus of individual instruments.
Much the same effect as do solid core ICs and SPCs do actually...
I've been advocating these all along as these are really cheap upgrades.
Let's just hope science will catch up later...
Cheers,
You mean solid core PCs, right?
I agree, they do make for better coherence across the audio band and give better focus of individual instruments.
Much the same effect as do solid core ICs and SPCs do actually...
I've been advocating these all along as these are really cheap upgrades.
Let's just hope science will catch up later...
Cheers,
Ashok posted, a while back:
"Now it depends on the PSRR of the amp to show up these variations as artefacts in the music. Within limits, amps like the Gainclone should be quite resistant to cable and power connector problems. Tube amps on the other hand are potentially problem prone due to their poorer PSRR capability."
This reminds me of some informal experiments I performed several years ago when I was running a tube preamp I designed in my setup with a couple of modified Ampex 351's and a tube sonic hologram device I also had made up along with a Linn & some other stuff all off of a Sola ferroresonant transformer. The Sola really did a great job of cleaning up the AC waveform, (although it was too mechanically noisy to keep in the listening room). but I found that I could dramatically improve the input noise rejection ratio of the tube regulators I had put in my tube preamp (using 0B2 reference tubes with 6CY7s) by summing the input noise through a resistor to the grid of the regulator half of the 6CY7. With the right value of resistor, I could make the tube regulator almost totally insensitive to noise at its input, well beyond what the basic topology of the regulator and the tube used for it could manage based both on listening and by looking at the pass through noise of the regulator with a 'scope. I could then plug the preamp directly into the mains and it would sound *almost* the same to me as if I had plugged it into a dedicated line conditioner with this tweak. I found a similar resistor tweak to stiffen up the output regulation quite a bit - getting the output z down around the one to ten ohm range.
"Now it depends on the PSRR of the amp to show up these variations as artefacts in the music. Within limits, amps like the Gainclone should be quite resistant to cable and power connector problems. Tube amps on the other hand are potentially problem prone due to their poorer PSRR capability."
This reminds me of some informal experiments I performed several years ago when I was running a tube preamp I designed in my setup with a couple of modified Ampex 351's and a tube sonic hologram device I also had made up along with a Linn & some other stuff all off of a Sola ferroresonant transformer. The Sola really did a great job of cleaning up the AC waveform, (although it was too mechanically noisy to keep in the listening room). but I found that I could dramatically improve the input noise rejection ratio of the tube regulators I had put in my tube preamp (using 0B2 reference tubes with 6CY7s) by summing the input noise through a resistor to the grid of the regulator half of the 6CY7. With the right value of resistor, I could make the tube regulator almost totally insensitive to noise at its input, well beyond what the basic topology of the regulator and the tube used for it could manage based both on listening and by looking at the pass through noise of the regulator with a 'scope. I could then plug the preamp directly into the mains and it would sound *almost* the same to me as if I had plugged it into a dedicated line conditioner with this tweak. I found a similar resistor tweak to stiffen up the output regulation quite a bit - getting the output z down around the one to ten ohm range.
Power Cord Nonsense
Someone mentioned that their wifr heard a difference in their CD player becuase of a heavier power cord. What does a CD player draw: 20 watts maybe? So the drop in the power cord is 0.01 volts but the voltage variation at the wall is several volts. So a fatter power cord helps? Yeah, right. A fatter power cord is a great idea on a 1000 watt Class A amplifier but on a CD player that is drawing ~ 20 watts the power cord can't possibly make a difference unless the CD power supply has blown voltage regulators.
Someone mentioned that their wifr heard a difference in their CD player becuase of a heavier power cord. What does a CD player draw: 20 watts maybe? So the drop in the power cord is 0.01 volts but the voltage variation at the wall is several volts. So a fatter power cord helps? Yeah, right. A fatter power cord is a great idea on a 1000 watt Class A amplifier but on a CD player that is drawing ~ 20 watts the power cord can't possibly make a difference unless the CD power supply has blown voltage regulators.
I'll admit I couldn't bring myself to read all of the innumerable posts on this topic, but I am surprised that one obvious issue didn't come up in pages 1-8 or this page, which is the effect of unplugging and plugging cords. Particularly with current travelling through plugs, you get corrosion over time which can act like diodes or even transistors of unpredictable sorts. This is often acknowledged with interconnects, and while they operate at low levels, the same effect must be possible (or even more likely) on power lines. No?
Hi,
Keeping in mind the high currents involved, no, not likely.
That's not to say that the quality of those plugs's not important.
I keep on having flashes of those dreadful U.K. plugs but for all I know they could even be superior to our continetal Europen ones..
A small cleaning effect is always likely to take place but will much depend on the type of plug and the environment it is used in IMHO.
Cheers,
Keeping in mind the high currents involved, no, not likely.
That's not to say that the quality of those plugs's not important.
I keep on having flashes of those dreadful U.K. plugs but for all I know they could even be superior to our continetal Europen ones..
A small cleaning effect is always likely to take place but will much depend on the type of plug and the environment it is used in IMHO.
Cheers,
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