Cal,
I grew up with those A7's and also moving A2's around for PA work. I still have a pair of Barcelona's in the house, a home style system based on the 511 horn, symbiotic diaphragm and an air suspension 15". They still work and sound as good as that type of system will sound. Lot's of low bass and the typical Altec radial horn output. I have thought about changing them but don't want to loose their historical value, their cabinets are in perfect condition and nothing has been changed. I have thought about adding a mid range driver but I would ruin the originality of them if I did that. I always preferred them over the JBL cabinets of the time with the terrible diffraction lenses they used at the time. The Altec top end was much better than the JBL.
I grew up with those A7's and also moving A2's around for PA work. I still have a pair of Barcelona's in the house, a home style system based on the 511 horn, symbiotic diaphragm and an air suspension 15". They still work and sound as good as that type of system will sound. Lot's of low bass and the typical Altec radial horn output. I have thought about changing them but don't want to loose their historical value, their cabinets are in perfect condition and nothing has been changed. I have thought about adding a mid range driver but I would ruin the originality of them if I did that. I always preferred them over the JBL cabinets of the time with the terrible diffraction lenses they used at the time. The Altec top end was much better than the JBL.
Stupid question from the back of the class:
With most compression drivers struggling to get below 300Hz, why not use a more conventional cone-type driver? Something like this, perhaps:
RS75T-8 - Dayton 3 inch reference fullrange driver - Europe Audio
With the SPL boost the horn loading ought to provide, I can see that becoming a rather capable mid-tweeter.
Thoughts?
Chris
With most compression drivers struggling to get below 300Hz, why not use a more conventional cone-type driver? Something like this, perhaps:
RS75T-8 - Dayton 3 inch reference fullrange driver - Europe Audio
With the SPL boost the horn loading ought to provide, I can see that becoming a rather capable mid-tweeter.
Thoughts?
Chris
Chris,
I think that a 3" speaker just wouldn't have the excursion needed to keep up. Don't forget that though we are talking about 1" and even 1.4" compression drivers that is just the exit size of the device and not the actual diaphragm size or voicecoil size. That is why I earlier suggested a 10" horn loaded mid. I use 6 1/2" horn loaded speakers for home use rather than a larger 10" speaker and have a cutoff from 400 to 600 hz on the bottom end. Below this any good bass driver should be able to cover those frequencies. My mid horns are only about 12" x 12" in size at the mouth, and along with a small format high frequency horn they integrate much better than a larger horn system. Both horns have identical dispersion characteristics so it make things much easier and much smaller to deal with.
I think that a 3" speaker just wouldn't have the excursion needed to keep up. Don't forget that though we are talking about 1" and even 1.4" compression drivers that is just the exit size of the device and not the actual diaphragm size or voicecoil size. That is why I earlier suggested a 10" horn loaded mid. I use 6 1/2" horn loaded speakers for home use rather than a larger 10" speaker and have a cutoff from 400 to 600 hz on the bottom end. Below this any good bass driver should be able to cover those frequencies. My mid horns are only about 12" x 12" in size at the mouth, and along with a small format high frequency horn they integrate much better than a larger horn system. Both horns have identical dispersion characteristics so it make things much easier and much smaller to deal with.
I wish mine were. Unfortunately, it seems they spent their life on the road before arriving on my doorstep. The worst part is, they were used with the horn inside so when I flipped it over to top mount the horn, well let's just say there's no doubt these were 'well loved' before I adopted them.
I am happy I did. It allowed me to drop the XO on the woofer as the tweeter driver didn't go low enough and the woofer wasn't really meant to cover that high. Also, I don't mind the 511/811 stacked look either.
Cal,
When I finally get out to my storage lockers I will pick up a pair of horn lenses for you and send them up North. I think you would enjoy them for a small system. Gratis on my end. Then you can tell the others who are still into that and perhaps someone else would want some. I have at least a hundred high frequency horns in storage and many of the 6 1/2" horns. They are molded polyurethane structural foam and very well damped, no problems with having to damp them like a sheet metal horn or most plastic horns. I still have the tooling to make more if I ever want to do that.
Steven
When I finally get out to my storage lockers I will pick up a pair of horn lenses for you and send them up North. I think you would enjoy them for a small system. Gratis on my end. Then you can tell the others who are still into that and perhaps someone else would want some. I have at least a hundred high frequency horns in storage and many of the 6 1/2" horns. They are molded polyurethane structural foam and very well damped, no problems with having to damp them like a sheet metal horn or most plastic horns. I still have the tooling to make more if I ever want to do that.
Steven
Man, I know the feeling. I had to buy a 2nd house
Sounds great, appreciate that. What drivers do you mount to them?
Cal,
I have used everything from a small pancake Radian to a 2001 TAD on the 1" horn. Loved the TAD's though that was when I could get a pair for less than $500. Sales rep at the time was a friend of mine. The mid horn was originally designed to be in a floor monitor to make them three way. I originally used the Polydax PR17 driver. I have my own 6 1/2" speaker design now but it isn't really a mid range device though I could make it that. I have also used some Seas drivers and other Danish drivers. They can take whatever midrange 6 1/2 you would like.
I have used everything from a small pancake Radian to a 2001 TAD on the 1" horn. Loved the TAD's though that was when I could get a pair for less than $500. Sales rep at the time was a friend of mine. The mid horn was originally designed to be in a floor monitor to make them three way. I originally used the Polydax PR17 driver. I have my own 6 1/2" speaker design now but it isn't really a mid range device though I could make it that. I have also used some Seas drivers and other Danish drivers. They can take whatever midrange 6 1/2 you would like.
The Synergy horn solves a lot of problems and is a brilliant design, I agree. I've read a couple of builds, but didn't see anyone who had nailed the design - if you're aware of a build that I could copy that would be great. I just don't have the time or knowledge to blaze that trail.
A good bit of DIY Synergy stuff here: Horns and Waveguides. There's at least one complete build there and links to others. There's also a couple good documented Synergy builds here on DIYA.
I have DIY 80hz bass horns now that have a 3,500cm^2 mouth and 90cm length that I am pretty happy with.
This time round I have a big 30x40 building. To get extension down to 60hz it will require a bigger mouth and a longer horn, but that's OK. Below 60hz I will be crossing to a few large tapped horns.
Can't imagine they would be cheap to ship. Besides I need 6 bass horns. They do look cool though
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IIRC isn't William's synergy horns made from the KIT Tom was selling way back.
I should be more clear, I *believe* it's a 288. One of the 1940's original RWB 'Hollywood" drivers, so I don't know how much they differ. At any rate, they do sound good down to 300hz. I've tried lower and it sounds bad.
I was using an active crossover with 24db/oct LR slopes.
Yes, that's what I've always found. For home use I could use those mantaray horns in the pic above (500hz horns) down to 400hz with a LR 24db/oct slope.
Now here's heresy. In the form of free advice.
Imo, these multicells don't image worth a darn in their usual horizontal configuration. They do give coverage, which is what they were designed to do. Perhaps in a very *large* room, like a barn sized LR, or in a room with extremely absorptive walls, that being equivalent to being outside, they would image ok set up horizontally.
Word to the wise, down in Oz, Steve71, seek yee Martin Seddon of Azura Horns!
Yep these are going to go into a heavily treated large space (home theater). The building is 30x40 and has cathedral ceilings.
I had these 1003's set up in a 22x25 room and they imaged pretty well. Not as good as the MR-64 horns, but overall I prefer the 1003's.
BTW I'm an Aussie, but live in the USA.
Thanks for the in-depth response!
OK after a bit of thinking over the week-end, I want to push ahead with 60hz bass horn idea. I really like what my 80hz horns do and have already bought the crossovers and amps (crown d-45's). I've got 6 288 compression drivers, 4 gauss HF horns and 6 Altec mid horns (MR-64/94 & 1003's) already so not much more to buy. I've very interested in the Synergy horns, but that can be another project for another day.
I'm all geared up to do measurement this time round.
In the next week or two I will be posting up a thread asking for options & opinions on the 60hz Altec 515G bass horn.
I'm all geared up to do measurement this time round.
In the next week or two I will be posting up a thread asking for options & opinions on the 60hz Altec 515G bass horn.
Sorry Pano, I forgot to THANK YOU for that very kind offer! Even if GM didn't have the answer, I could not let you do the work for me, but I really do appreciate the offer.
Not trying to push you, but you could use the 288s and a pair of 8" or 10" speakers on each Synergy, with an acoustical crossover around 600-1KHz.
I'm using a pair of Eminence Alpha 8" and an EVDH1AMT, very similar response to a 288, in my PA. The cabinet design is similar to a Synergy, but has the HF driver on a Paraline coupler to reduce vertical dispersion to make it work properly as a line array.
Just did sound for Bill Maher in an 1800 seat airplane hanger type room, using 10 top cabinets covering back about 100 feet, and some delay speakers for the last 50 feet to reduce the slapback echo from the back wall.
Six in a room your size would be ________ (fill in the blank).
The HF needs to be boosted as in any constant directivity horn, but I don't feel the need for any tweeters, and cross into the Keystone TH at 100 Hz.
You also could probably pay for all the mid drivers with the sale of the Gauss tweets and the 1003 horns.
Art
Steve71,
What state are you in? I just assumed that by the flag you were not in the states. My bass horns have a mouth not much lager than your bass horns but use two 18" drivers on a fiberglass molded throat section. To get down into the real low bass frequencies it takes plenty of eq or multiple units. I prefer the multi-unit approach myself as the excursion doesn't get out of hand on the bottom end. I'm no fan of constant directivity horns myself, without eq they are terrible by themselves at anywhere near a flat response. I use the molded horn throat section that then transitions to a wooden horn section. The entire waveguide is a hyperbolic expansion rate and the throat section does reduce the cross section of the effective cone area by 25% at the smallest section. This uses a patented design. that is now in the public domain, I let it lapse a long time ago but the design does work. I could live without the extreme low frequency response in an application such as yours.
What state are you in? I just assumed that by the flag you were not in the states. My bass horns have a mouth not much lager than your bass horns but use two 18" drivers on a fiberglass molded throat section. To get down into the real low bass frequencies it takes plenty of eq or multiple units. I prefer the multi-unit approach myself as the excursion doesn't get out of hand on the bottom end. I'm no fan of constant directivity horns myself, without eq they are terrible by themselves at anywhere near a flat response. I use the molded horn throat section that then transitions to a wooden horn section. The entire waveguide is a hyperbolic expansion rate and the throat section does reduce the cross section of the effective cone area by 25% at the smallest section. This uses a patented design. that is now in the public domain, I let it lapse a long time ago but the design does work. I could live without the extreme low frequency response in an application such as yours.
If you have a room that large, why go for 60Hz horns?? Too high.
Plenty of room for a big mouth.
I'd stay away from the mantaray type horn myself.
In the room size you cite and far enough back from the speakers, the horizontal altec multicells ought to be pretty good. I'd probably set them wide and toe them in, not leave them in the normal straight ahead set up.
Lots of options for bass horns and IB type set ups in a big room.
_-_-bear
Plenty of room for a big mouth.
I'd stay away from the mantaray type horn myself.
In the room size you cite and far enough back from the speakers, the horizontal altec multicells ought to be pretty good. I'd probably set them wide and toe them in, not leave them in the normal straight ahead set up.
Lots of options for bass horns and IB type set ups in a big room.
_-_-bear
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I'm not real fond of EQing the 288 flat in the manta-ray horns. I think if I were to go that route, I use that BMS? concentric HF driver.
The reason I want six of these speakers is for surround sound, so it's not like they will all be playing at once.
Sounds like you have a fun job!!
I live high up in the mountains of Colorado. But I like to fly my Aussie flag
.The frequency that I need to cover is ~300/500 to 60hz. So a folded horn wouldn't work. I should have more bass than I need with the tapped horns below 60hz down to 15hz.
Your molded horns sounds interesting - got any links?
I have a lot of space, but I also want to fit in a 22ft wide screen + space for LR speakers either side of the screen.
I can't put the speakers behind the screen because acoustically transparent screen material has very low gain. It's going to be hard enough as it is to light up a huge screen. I'll need all the screen gain I can get!
Bass will be crossed at 60hz to 4 of Ricci's GJALLARHORNs subs so no real need to go too huge on the bass horns.
I've seen that pic a bunch - comes up every time I search for horn pics. Interesting idea to raise the floor and put in bass horns. That is dedication! Is it your room?
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