Remlab
In fact, the speaker is there to reproduce not beauty but only what has been put in the groove of the CD. The fact it is beauty for you is not the matter. The sound engineer makes a complex work to try the feeling of the buyer be the closer of what he has felt. High Fidelity ? To what ?
The artist, i am not sure he thinks to the final listener when performing his partition...He plays as he understand and feel the piece of art he is playing. He is in its own world, trying to follow the indications of the conductor of the symphony...
In fact, the speaker is there to reproduce not beauty but only what has been put in the groove of the CD. The fact it is beauty for you is not the matter. The sound engineer makes a complex work to try the feeling of the buyer be the closer of what he has felt. High Fidelity ? To what ?
The artist, i am not sure he thinks to the final listener when performing his partition...He plays as he understand and feel the piece of art he is playing. He is in its own world, trying to follow the indications of the conductor of the symphony...
SY,
"The issue is what you measure..."
Sorry, I'm not the builder of the Infraplanar, i made no measure on it. The measures we can see on the website contain all explanations about how the measure was made, inside or outside, in front or else, near field or at one meter... all is clear.
What is less clear is what you want to extract from the reading of the curve... When you explain that the roll-off is demonstrated in a curve, when i se on this curve that there is the same spl value at 300Hz and at 15 Hz, excuse me !
"The issue is what you measure..."
Sorry, I'm not the builder of the Infraplanar, i made no measure on it. The measures we can see on the website contain all explanations about how the measure was made, inside or outside, in front or else, near field or at one meter... all is clear.
What is less clear is what you want to extract from the reading of the curve... When you explain that the roll-off is demonstrated in a curve, when i se on this curve that there is the same spl value at 300Hz and at 15 Hz, excuse me !
Perhaps it's a language barrier? If so, my apologies. I have never taken issue with those measurements, just your understanding of what they mean. I've tried to say clearly that they are set up so as to ignore the cancellation that you get when you place a speaker in a room and when you move into the far field.
Nobody - neither me - refuse the fact that cancellation exits in itself...
BUT, correctly disposed in a room, standing on the floor, listened in front or not too far, not at twenty or more meters ( domestic use), a large planar sub does works with delight of the ears. That's my point of vue, because i experimented it many times in these ways.
So i can't accept those who try to explain to me the contrary, in the name of "science", specially when they themselves never heard what they condemn. No one can wipe my own experience.
I don't denie huge cubes with one meter cone sub to get satisfaction in other systems.
This is simply not the same use, not the same conditions, not the same aim.
BUT, correctly disposed in a room, standing on the floor, listened in front or not too far, not at twenty or more meters ( domestic use), a large planar sub does works with delight of the ears. That's my point of vue, because i experimented it many times in these ways.
So i can't accept those who try to explain to me the contrary, in the name of "science", specially when they themselves never heard what they condemn. No one can wipe my own experience.
I don't denie huge cubes with one meter cone sub to get satisfaction in other systems.
This is simply not the same use, not the same conditions, not the same aim.
SY,
Are not you the guy that writed :
1- Microphone is placed 3cm from the diaphragm for those measurements?
No wonder the cancellation doesn't show up (#17)
2- Open space?
No wonder the cancellation doesn't show up. (#19)
3- the travel time for front-to-back cancellation is small compared to the period of the produced wave (#31)
What is exactly the space around the planar sub where we can find cancellation ?
Do you know a not too bad simulation, at least a measure protocol, that can reasonably show us what to expect in domestic use ?
Please, don't stay mute...
Are not you the guy that writed :
1- Microphone is placed 3cm from the diaphragm for those measurements?
No wonder the cancellation doesn't show up (#17)
2- Open space?
No wonder the cancellation doesn't show up. (#19)
3- the travel time for front-to-back cancellation is small compared to the period of the produced wave (#31)
What is exactly the space around the planar sub where we can find cancellation ?
Do you know a not too bad simulation, at least a measure protocol, that can reasonably show us what to expect in domestic use ?
Please, don't stay mute...
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Have you seen...
...this interesting and apparently rather thorough investigation which appears to support your experience:
Elias Pekonen Home Page - Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass
Disregarding for a moment the actual in room LF response numbers being debated here; perhaps this work does provide a reasonably formalised analytical framework that may validate, at least in part, the general qualitative aspects of OB bass which you and so many others, myself included, would so comfortably and confidently report?
Cheers, Ian
...this interesting and apparently rather thorough investigation which appears to support your experience:
Elias Pekonen Home Page - Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass
Disregarding for a moment the actual in room LF response numbers being debated here; perhaps this work does provide a reasonably formalised analytical framework that may validate, at least in part, the general qualitative aspects of OB bass which you and so many others, myself included, would so comfortably and confidently report?
Cheers, Ian
I don't think anyone here has a problem with the potential sonic qualities of this speaker. Extension is the only concern. Especially in room. Like I said earlier, I would love to listen to this speaker for its sonic qualities.
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Dear readers and writers,
So, a scientific approach has proved that dipole with cancellation is better for bass than monopole without cancellation.
I hope that all those who denied this fact in upper part of this thread, with their solid certitudes, are going to give us their feeling about this certainty, and perhaps, we can hope it, shall accept that they were wrong.
Or explain what is false in the demonstration.
Perhaps, too, someone can explain why a large planar dipole sub is better for bass (and infra) than open baffle dipole made with classic cones drivers...
Science never sleep.
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I never claim that Infraplanar could go down to 5 Hz. 10 Hz have been reached, you can see on the curve, but with an important decrease. See the graph.
On a forum in french, Infraplanar (Claude Lacroix, founder, and Jean-Yves Soria, his associate, doctor in Sciences, Physics of the Fluids ) explained one day that they were asked by the Nuclear Energy Comity (French CEA) if they could with Infraplanar type speaker produce a powerfull and regular 5Hz emission for some tests they needed to do. This was short time after they present their large planar sub on the web, about 2008 i think.
They succeeded and won the contract, with a planar sub larger than infraplanar, and with a mechanism that remains secret till this day.
It's not a tosh.
SY : "No, it hasn't. Merely repeating the assertion doesn't make it any more true."
Hi,
To produce a more than ten pages study using modern highly sophisticated tools is not 'merely repeating an assertion"...
And "no it's not true" is not a serious refutation.
The worst blind do not want to see.
Hi,
To produce a more than ten pages study using modern highly sophisticated tools is not 'merely repeating an assertion"...
And "no it's not true" is not a serious refutation.
The worst blind do not want to see.
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Gradient of Finland produced a dipole bass extension for QUAD ESL and ESL-63 some decades ago. It had dipole cancellation by principle, partly equalized electronically. Yet it was a quite successful product. Dipoles produce velocity waves, not pressure waves. If the listener is in the path of velocity waves, he/she is able to hear low frequency regardless of cancellation. Othervise we couldn't hear bass from open headphones either.
http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/History_2.html
http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/History_2.html
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Hi,
a Dipole Bass is -at least in theory- a velocity transducer, while the Monopole is a pressure transducer. As such they exite room modes in different ways and the optimal positioning differs too. The finnish website is therefore no scientific proof of dipole superiority and it doesn't claim that. The dipole's velocity nature doesn't allow it to pressurize the room. So there's no output at all below the lowest room mode. It is just the real worlds imperfection that the Dipole shows certain attitudes of a pressure transducer also. Still though the useable output is small and it requires lots of litres of moved air, if you're listening outside nearfield conditions. A monopole bass that pressurizes the room below the lowest room mode on the other hand is very efficient, which allows for compact drivers and casings for the same output as a huge planar.
Outside the nearfield acoustic phase cancellation leads to a drop in SPL of a dipole. To keep the loss acceptable a high-Q resonance is used sometimes, see for example the Quad electrostats. High Qs cost on precision. High Qs are very common in most planars, as with ESLs or Magnetostats due to low damping. Dynamic drivers have much higher damping. So much that they usually require a casing to beef up their performance. On the other hand does this feature make them much better Bass performers. The amplitude response plots of the InfraPlanar clearly show a high-Q resonance.
jauu
Calvin
a Dipole Bass is -at least in theory- a velocity transducer, while the Monopole is a pressure transducer. As such they exite room modes in different ways and the optimal positioning differs too. The finnish website is therefore no scientific proof of dipole superiority and it doesn't claim that. The dipole's velocity nature doesn't allow it to pressurize the room. So there's no output at all below the lowest room mode. It is just the real worlds imperfection that the Dipole shows certain attitudes of a pressure transducer also. Still though the useable output is small and it requires lots of litres of moved air, if you're listening outside nearfield conditions. A monopole bass that pressurizes the room below the lowest room mode on the other hand is very efficient, which allows for compact drivers and casings for the same output as a huge planar.
Outside the nearfield acoustic phase cancellation leads to a drop in SPL of a dipole. To keep the loss acceptable a high-Q resonance is used sometimes, see for example the Quad electrostats. High Qs cost on precision. High Qs are very common in most planars, as with ESLs or Magnetostats due to low damping. Dynamic drivers have much higher damping. So much that they usually require a casing to beef up their performance. On the other hand does this feature make them much better Bass performers. The amplitude response plots of the InfraPlanar clearly show a high-Q resonance.
jauu
Calvin
I suspect not, since we were talking about bass extension and you seem to be relying on measurements that have little to do with that.
Hi,
Yes they were quite successful, but mainly because they allowed the
Quads to go quite a bit louder by relieving them of low bass duty.
Stunning bass extension was never claimed, I recall. and high levels
not really required, as the Quads still didn't go particularly loud.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
Perhaps you can explain how you have
come to that very unscientific conclusion ?
rgds, sreten.
Can you add extra bass panels to Maggies ? Of course.
Just build a bigger wider version of the Maggies bass panels
and generally tension / nodally clamp the diaphragm for
lower frequency distributed modes than the bass panel.
It it infrasonics ? No that is just a name.
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