I have not tried any other woofer in the SLOB to compare, but the Bianco plays really clean, really low. Could not be happier. The below bright green line is the Bianco with the Lii fast 8, and minimal boost and correction. The Bianco played really well without any correction right out of the box. These measurement were taken a 1 meter at the height of the Lii driver, in room.
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Dear fellow SLOB-builders,
has anyone of you using a Lii Fast-8 managed to tame the whizzer?
Some music drives me to tears for its liveliness but some other (most rock) music with lots of cymbals
and fuzz-gits makes me wanna puke. Distorted high mids drilling in my ears.
I've tried different c-values for the FR-EQ and endet up with C4 2n2, C3 47p and P1 on minimum R.
Have you found better values or do I have to swap the fullrange?
I've even tried my old maggies(SMGA) as Slob-top but they sound dull and muffled in comparison.
Help!
Attila
has anyone of you using a Lii Fast-8 managed to tame the whizzer?
Some music drives me to tears for its liveliness but some other (most rock) music with lots of cymbals
and fuzz-gits makes me wanna puke. Distorted high mids drilling in my ears.
I've tried different c-values for the FR-EQ and endet up with C4 2n2, C3 47p and P1 on minimum R.
Have you found better values or do I have to swap the fullrange?
I've even tried my old maggies(SMGA) as Slob-top but they sound dull and muffled in comparison.
Help!
Attila
Thanks Nelson and WBS,
you might just have overread this. but ->
"...tried different c-values for the FR-EQ and endet up with C4 2n2, C3 47p and P1 on minimum R."
With larger caps I leave the desired area of damping. Maybe if I reduce the resisor further to (what's its minimum?).
See pics in post 514
yours faihfully
Attila
you might just have overread this. but ->
"...tried different c-values for the FR-EQ and endet up with C4 2n2, C3 47p and P1 on minimum R."
With larger caps I leave the desired area of damping. Maybe if I reduce the resisor further to (what's its minimum?).
See pics in post 514
yours faihfully
Attila
@Attila I Curious, do you have any frequency response measurements before and after?
I have been listening a little louder recently as time has allowed, and I too am finding the mids and highs of the fast 8 somewhat fatiguing. Not so much at lower levels, but rock, electric guitar heavy blues and most vocals is difficult when loudish. I have even been considering other drivers, but the value of the fast 8 is hard to beat when shopping for Cube, Lowther, Voxativ etc. Thought about TB W-1808 but worry there wont be much improvement. I have even considered coax and adding another amp to the mix, but I am still using DSP so I am going to try to “shape” the sound for now.
Would like to hear the opinions of those who have used the fast 8 and moved on to other drivers or vice versa.
I have been listening a little louder recently as time has allowed, and I too am finding the mids and highs of the fast 8 somewhat fatiguing. Not so much at lower levels, but rock, electric guitar heavy blues and most vocals is difficult when loudish. I have even been considering other drivers, but the value of the fast 8 is hard to beat when shopping for Cube, Lowther, Voxativ etc. Thought about TB W-1808 but worry there wont be much improvement. I have even considered coax and adding another amp to the mix, but I am still using DSP so I am going to try to “shape” the sound for now.
Would like to hear the opinions of those who have used the fast 8 and moved on to other drivers or vice versa.
I was avoiding saying this, because I didn't want to dampen the mood, but I built some of nelson pass's SLOB's, copied the LX mini crossover schematic from speaker camp 2022/2023, and bought some used moths and Lii Fast 8's. I have trouble with the upper mid being harsh in some recordings. It seems to sound better at really low levels. I also tried the moths in phase and out of phase...same thing with the Lii's. I've heard the same thing about Cube Audio drivers from a few people. I guess it's just an acquired taste that unfortunately rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure if I can EQ it out or not...I actually heard someone say that they preferred SONIDO drivers to Cube.
.
No, i didn't do any measurements - just ears. making small changes followed by long listening sessions. again and again.
I did play some test stuff: sinusses, sweeps, noises though - inconclusive.
Music is the difficult signal (some).
But i won't switch to easy listening just because the speaker tells me to.
No ma'm!
Solid
Attila
@wwschaff The Sonido drivers have not been on my radar. Not sure how I missed those. There is a few favorable reviews in a thread I found here, and from what I can tell, the support and pricing looks good. The field coil option is interesting. My initial searches online did not turn up much in support of an open baffle application, so I will have to dig a little more on them.
Here is what I was told...Not sure if this is true physics: "Every fullrange suffers breakup modes, where membrane no longer moves in unison, but parts flap up and down. This is cause of uneven frequency response and delayed resonances. Every fullrange suffers from this. The bigger the cone, sooner the breakup starts. If you select small fullrange, highs may be nice with little breakups. But no bass. If you select big fullrange, you can achieve bass, but highs will suffer. Its all compromises."
I find this a little hard to believe when so many people seem to love full range speakers... and I suspect that most of them do not even incorporate EQ. But then again... I hear some problems that I feel are fairly obvious (if listening to CSN).
I find this a little hard to believe when so many people seem to love full range speakers... and I suspect that most of them do not even incorporate EQ. But then again... I hear some problems that I feel are fairly obvious (if listening to CSN).
Could you shed some light on your upstream equipment? I think I see a B1K and an ACA mini, assuming you use the latter for the FR’s. Then, what is the impedance vs frequency response curve of those drivers? You could simply be hearing the common full range upper mid problem, with a declining top end. You could add a series 5 watt resistor to the positive poles of your full ranges, in series with the speaker cable. 4-8 ohms should do it. Then see if it makes a positive difference or not. If it does, you found your issue, solvable by EQ, series resistance (ie increased output impedance). I am assuming you have a source of quality, ruling out that as your issue.
I found the F2J perfect for my fullranges. Took away all mid range issues at least. I found a damping factor of approx 1 to be the best for my specific drivers.
I've tried a few different sources, CD's, two different turntables with MM cartridges.
-Main one is Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit SB with 2M red Ortofon
-Schitt Mani and pearl 2 phono pre's.
-ACA-pre+, B1K, and Whammy as a pre
-ACA mini, ACA, Aleph J
I'll try to take some measurements this weekend, but it'll be my first time so we'll see if I can figure it out. I'll also try the resistor trick...the moth's are 12 ohms.
To state the obvious... there are two possible problems:
#1. there may be something wrong with @No 4 and my SLOB's/setups or...
#2. we just have a different personal taste and find full ranges difficult to listen to.
I wish I could verify #2 before spending all the time and money trying to figure out #1. Luckily I also have Klipsch Hersey III's which I can enjoy in the meantime.
-Main one is Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit SB with 2M red Ortofon
-Schitt Mani and pearl 2 phono pre's.
-ACA-pre+, B1K, and Whammy as a pre
-ACA mini, ACA, Aleph J
I'll try to take some measurements this weekend, but it'll be my first time so we'll see if I can figure it out. I'll also try the resistor trick...the moth's are 12 ohms.
To state the obvious... there are two possible problems:
#1. there may be something wrong with @No 4 and my SLOB's/setups or...
#2. we just have a different personal taste and find full ranges difficult to listen to.
I wish I could verify #2 before spending all the time and money trying to figure out #1. Luckily I also have Klipsch Hersey III's which I can enjoy in the meantime.
@wwschaff #1. there may be something wrong with @No 4.
This is most likely the problem
The F6 I am using to power the fast 8s is new ish. Everything else upstream has been around. Maybe this weekend I will swap a trusty SET in and see if there is a difference. I probably need to sit down and actually take full advantage of my DSP before I change drivers. But, it can’t hurt to do some window shopping in the mean time.
This is most likely the problem
The F6 I am using to power the fast 8s is new ish. Everything else upstream has been around. Maybe this weekend I will swap a trusty SET in and see if there is a difference. I probably need to sit down and actually take full advantage of my DSP before I change drivers. But, it can’t hurt to do some window shopping in the mean time.
I repeat, it is perfectly normal for fullranges to have a strident upper midrange. That is a good part of the reason Nelson made the F1 and F2, and also the full range crossover now listed in the store. Check out its curve, you’ll see. In essence: transistor amps and full ranges often work badly together, due to the low Zout in part. So, I support your plan to test series resistance.I've tried a few different sources, CD's, two different turntables with MM cartridges.
-Main one is Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Espirit SB with 2M red Ortofon
-Schitt Mani and pearl 2 phono pre's.
-ACA-pre+, B1K, and Whammy as a pre
-ACA mini, ACA, Aleph J
I'll try to take some measurements this weekend, but it'll be my first time so we'll see if I can figure it out. I'll also try the resistor trick...the moth's are 12 ohms.
To state the obvious... there are two possible problems:
#1. there may be something wrong with @No 4 and my SLOB's/setups or...
#2. we just have a different personal taste and find full ranges difficult to listen to.
I wish I could verify #2 before spending all the time and money trying to figure out #1. Luckily I also have Klipsch Hersey III's which I can enjoy in the meantime.
There it is, with a quote perhaps pertaining to your experiences:
«By comparison, the “best” solid-state state amplifiers make them sound more like transistor radios – less bottom and a, occasionally strident upper midrange. If you are a solid-state kind of guy (like me) you start wondering how that could be, and if you are a tube aficionado, you smirk and say, “I told you so.” The solid-state guy probably starts fixing the response with a parametric equalizer, and the tube guy enjoys his music with a nice glass of wine.»
And this, the el cheapo fast possible solution:
«Most of the examples we will examine do not require true current source amplifiers, only amplifiers of quite high output impedances. Most of these cases will be happy with an output impedance of approximately 47 ohms or so and prefer 47 ohms loaded in parallel with the output of a current source. That being the case, you can build a Thevenin Equivalent of such a current source by placing a large resistor (here later referred to as R0) in series with the output of a high wattage voltage source amplifier and get similar results.»
Note: midrange stridiness may or may not be solved, but you will most likely hear a differense, and possibly it will be for the better in some aspects.
«By comparison, the “best” solid-state state amplifiers make them sound more like transistor radios – less bottom and a, occasionally strident upper midrange. If you are a solid-state kind of guy (like me) you start wondering how that could be, and if you are a tube aficionado, you smirk and say, “I told you so.” The solid-state guy probably starts fixing the response with a parametric equalizer, and the tube guy enjoys his music with a nice glass of wine.»
And this, the el cheapo fast possible solution:
«Most of the examples we will examine do not require true current source amplifiers, only amplifiers of quite high output impedances. Most of these cases will be happy with an output impedance of approximately 47 ohms or so and prefer 47 ohms loaded in parallel with the output of a current source. That being the case, you can build a Thevenin Equivalent of such a current source by placing a large resistor (here later referred to as R0) in series with the output of a high wattage voltage source amplifier and get similar results.»
Note: midrange stridiness may or may not be solved, but you will most likely hear a differense, and possibly it will be for the better in some aspects.
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No 4, I meant to say they'd maybe something wrong with the SETUP. That was a poor choice of words on my end.
andynor, thank you for the info...this seems like a really important concept that I have never heard of. Could be the whole problem. thanks again!