Getting PCBs made has never been easier. Today there are dozens of PCB fabs which accept orders online. You simply upload your PCB design (in the CAD format called "Gerber files") to their website, specify quantity, color, yes/no gold, etc., and the website immediately gives you a price quote including shipping to your door. If you like their price and throughput time, you say "Yes", pay with PayPal or a credit card, and the fab builds your boards. It's simple and easy. Just like buying groceries online or purchasing stuff you don't actually need, from eBay or Wish.com or AliExpress or Amazon.
When I post a new audio project here to the diyAudio Forums, I include the PCB manufacturing Gerber files so that other members can have PCBs built if they wish. In this thread I'll be using the "PhaseDots tester" from 2015, as a running example. Gerbers for PhaseDots are also included below, if you want a small test-case to use in PCB ordering experiments.
An easy way to find PCB fabs who do online business, is to visit the website www.pcbshopper.com . It will give you price comparisons for quite a few different PCB fabs. One of those fabs is called JLCPCB.com and I have made a "walkthrough" of the ordering process at JLCPCB, attached below in .pdf format.
As you'll see in the Walkthru, ordering PCBs is just like ordering anything else online. You register at the seller's website, getting a username and password. Then you tell the seller what you want to buy (by uploading the Gerber zip archive), how many you want, what color you want, and so forth. The seller tells you how much it will cost and how long it will take. You type in your ship-to address, pay with a credit card (or PayPal), and that's all. The seller starts fulfilling your order and ships you the goods. Of course you can log in to the seller's website every now and again, to check on the progress of the job, and to get the package tracking number once the goods are shipped to your address. Just like all other e-commerce transactions in the year 2023.
There are too many screen capture images to attach in a single Forum posting, so I've collected everything together as a single .pdf document, with one screen capture image per page. I hope you enjoy the walkthru, and I'm confident you'll decide that PCB ordering is not mysterious, not difficult, and not frightening. It's just like buying other goods and services, online.
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When I post a new audio project here to the diyAudio Forums, I include the PCB manufacturing Gerber files so that other members can have PCBs built if they wish. In this thread I'll be using the "PhaseDots tester" from 2015, as a running example. Gerbers for PhaseDots are also included below, if you want a small test-case to use in PCB ordering experiments.
An easy way to find PCB fabs who do online business, is to visit the website www.pcbshopper.com . It will give you price comparisons for quite a few different PCB fabs. One of those fabs is called JLCPCB.com and I have made a "walkthrough" of the ordering process at JLCPCB, attached below in .pdf format.
As you'll see in the Walkthru, ordering PCBs is just like ordering anything else online. You register at the seller's website, getting a username and password. Then you tell the seller what you want to buy (by uploading the Gerber zip archive), how many you want, what color you want, and so forth. The seller tells you how much it will cost and how long it will take. You type in your ship-to address, pay with a credit card (or PayPal), and that's all. The seller starts fulfilling your order and ships you the goods. Of course you can log in to the seller's website every now and again, to check on the progress of the job, and to get the package tracking number once the goods are shipped to your address. Just like all other e-commerce transactions in the year 2023.
There are too many screen capture images to attach in a single Forum posting, so I've collected everything together as a single .pdf document, with one screen capture image per page. I hope you enjoy the walkthru, and I'm confident you'll decide that PCB ordering is not mysterious, not difficult, and not frightening. It's just like buying other goods and services, online.
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I may add that for pcb fab you need the Gerber data which is the photo plot data for the layers . It consists of apertures and line drawing commands. Each Gerber file has a file name extension that defines it function in the pcb stack up. File names extensions are specific to each fab, sometimes you include a readme file describing what layer each Gerber file is for.
Also part of pcb fab is the drill data in excellon format, a file-containing the .xln notation as required by jlcpcb. It contains drill or finished hole sizes and hole locations.
Some of the Gerber data is for documentation, showing pcb outline, drill charts, tolerances, locations, pcb dimensioning and sometime specifics such as slots, v-scoring etc. For jlcpcb they accept the outline drawing using the .gko extension for the pcb outline, dimensioning, drill chart/sizes,tolerances, pcb stack up and the .fab extension for specific such as slots and v-scoring
Reference:
https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/233-Suggested-Naming-Patterns
Enjoy.
Also part of pcb fab is the drill data in excellon format, a file-containing the .xln notation as required by jlcpcb. It contains drill or finished hole sizes and hole locations.
Some of the Gerber data is for documentation, showing pcb outline, drill charts, tolerances, locations, pcb dimensioning and sometime specifics such as slots, v-scoring etc. For jlcpcb they accept the outline drawing using the .gko extension for the pcb outline, dimensioning, drill chart/sizes,tolerances, pcb stack up and the .fab extension for specific such as slots and v-scoring
Reference:
https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/233-Suggested-Naming-Patterns
Enjoy.
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I have used JLCPCB for almost 5 years now and never had a problem.
For us Europeans it is also very nice that they collect the VAT, so that we don't have to pay VAT + an "import handling" fee. The handling fee I have sometimes paid is around EUR 25. Rather annoying if you buy a PCB at USD 2!
For us Europeans it is also very nice that they collect the VAT, so that we don't have to pay VAT + an "import handling" fee. The handling fee I have sometimes paid is around EUR 25. Rather annoying if you buy a PCB at USD 2!
A pcb with no schematic, bom is not a complete design.
Now if you have them assemble your design and it has valuable IP. I’d be making them sign an NDA. Not sure if a NDA to a Chinese company holds any weight however.
Show your proof of a Chinese pcb fab violating someone’s IP? That’s all they need for business and reputation if they violate one customers IP and we find out about it, kinda like shooting yourself in the head imo.
Now if you have them assemble your design and it has valuable IP. I’d be making them sign an NDA. Not sure if a NDA to a Chinese company holds any weight however.
Show your proof of a Chinese pcb fab violating someone’s IP? That’s all they need for business and reputation if they violate one customers IP and we find out about it, kinda like shooting yourself in the head imo.
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The last two microwave ovens that I bought were made by the same Chinese manufacturer. They have identical keypads and nearly identical microcontroller programming. The first was a Sharp brand while the second was a store house brand. The manufacturer learned all that they needed to know from Sharp, and then dumped Sharp.
The strategy is not to remain a contract manufacturer forever.
Ed
The strategy is not to remain a contract manufacturer forever.
Ed
Dang it... I just liked a post requesting to stay on topic.
First and most importantly - Mark, thank you for such an informative post and exceptional documentation.
@EdGr - You're assuming 'facts not in evidence' that Sharp (or another company in partnership with Sharp) designed the microwave and/or that there was/is any IP associated with the design. How do you know that another company didn't design the microwave? Quite a number of known brands go straight to a manufacturer's 'shelves' and pick a product to toss their label on and/or have the manufacturer / vendor design the product for them. An 'exclusive' design typically comes at a certain price point, while a 'design for all' in different colors badges etc. comes at another. It's a matter of manufacturing efficiency (among other things). If a manufacturer wants to charge $50 for you to have the product exclusively, but will only charge $40 if they can sell to multiple markets (which is a common practice) ... what do you pick and why?
The goal (for some) 'factories' is to be a reliable manufacturer / supplier / designer of certain products with certain levels of support for various customers. Personally, I have no idea how Sharp or their manufacturers work, but I am quite familiar with the supply chain structures and IP ownership in other product lines.
tl;dr - it seems equally likely to me that Sharp picked an existing microwave (or the control unit etc.) from a manufacturer / supplier. There's not much 'new' in microwave ovens these days, and it would surprise me if Sharp would dedicate engineering resources toward any IP associated with a new design. With that said... I'm often very, very wrong. Therefore, I don't often make assumptions.
First and most importantly - Mark, thank you for such an informative post and exceptional documentation.
@EdGr - You're assuming 'facts not in evidence' that Sharp (or another company in partnership with Sharp) designed the microwave and/or that there was/is any IP associated with the design. How do you know that another company didn't design the microwave? Quite a number of known brands go straight to a manufacturer's 'shelves' and pick a product to toss their label on and/or have the manufacturer / vendor design the product for them. An 'exclusive' design typically comes at a certain price point, while a 'design for all' in different colors badges etc. comes at another. It's a matter of manufacturing efficiency (among other things). If a manufacturer wants to charge $50 for you to have the product exclusively, but will only charge $40 if they can sell to multiple markets (which is a common practice) ... what do you pick and why?
The goal (for some) 'factories' is to be a reliable manufacturer / supplier / designer of certain products with certain levels of support for various customers. Personally, I have no idea how Sharp or their manufacturers work, but I am quite familiar with the supply chain structures and IP ownership in other product lines.
tl;dr - it seems equally likely to me that Sharp picked an existing microwave (or the control unit etc.) from a manufacturer / supplier. There's not much 'new' in microwave ovens these days, and it would surprise me if Sharp would dedicate engineering resources toward any IP associated with a new design. With that said... I'm often very, very wrong. Therefore, I don't often make assumptions.
^ Best to probably take this offline or via PM. I really don't want to stay off-topic. I promise this isn't me trying to get in a 'last word'. Happy to continue.
Your assumption is that the product you're discussing is a design that is at least using decades-old (commonly 20 years' patent-protection + design time) design? You're also assuming / guessing that the specific tech for those microwave control panels or similar was protected by Sharp (or anyone) by patent. I would not make those assumptions based on my experience, but they are fair to assume. You could be using an "old" oven that's still on the market under a new design from a different brand. I don't know.
Also, pedantry, but if the patents have expired, then there is no IP. Either way, my purpose is not to say that you're incorrect. You may be stating facts. I admit that I'm sensitive to this area. My purpose is to help perhaps remove some of the "Chinese steal IP; isn't it obvious", mentality. I don't in any way mean to imply that your intention was to disparage a world-wide supply chain / nationality / or anyone. However, I hope you could consider that some might read it that way.
Overall - There is (to me) at least an equally likely, and (to me) a possibly more plausible scenario where everyone acted on the up and up. That's been the vast majority of my experiences. That's not to say that the second product you purchased wasn't "completely ripped off" (my words not yours) from Sharp.
Edited to clarify brand vs. manufacturer - In this context my error requires correction.
Your assumption is that the product you're discussing is a design that is at least using decades-old (commonly 20 years' patent-protection + design time) design? You're also assuming / guessing that the specific tech for those microwave control panels or similar was protected by Sharp (or anyone) by patent. I would not make those assumptions based on my experience, but they are fair to assume. You could be using an "old" oven that's still on the market under a new design from a different brand. I don't know.
Also, pedantry, but if the patents have expired, then there is no IP. Either way, my purpose is not to say that you're incorrect. You may be stating facts. I admit that I'm sensitive to this area. My purpose is to help perhaps remove some of the "Chinese steal IP; isn't it obvious", mentality. I don't in any way mean to imply that your intention was to disparage a world-wide supply chain / nationality / or anyone. However, I hope you could consider that some might read it that way.
Overall - There is (to me) at least an equally likely, and (to me) a possibly more plausible scenario where everyone acted on the up and up. That's been the vast majority of my experiences. That's not to say that the second product you purchased wasn't "completely ripped off" (my words not yours) from Sharp.
Edited to clarify brand vs. manufacturer - In this context my error requires correction.
Agree lets stay on topic. I've not used JL but have used Oshpark on several occasions. I'd agree with the OP saying PCB shopping has become like going to a grocery store. Sure some stores have stuff others don't, like colors or maybe slightly better line widths but for almost all audio stuff they are interchangeable. Just minor tweaks to maybe the outline file is required to switchup who does your board. It is a great time to be a hobbyist. Very high quality multi-layer boards can be had on short notice for very reasonable pricing. But shop around for the best price for what you are looking for.
I have found that the Gerber file naming convention (within a Gerber .zip archive) stated by seeed studio with three e's , works at every single PCB fab in China that accepts online orders. Every one. And this has been true since 2014 or sooner.
Take a look at the seeed documentation (link), screen captured below. Also take a look at the contents of the example Gerber .zip archive attached to post #1. Same file extensions. Also take a look at the file creation dates of the .zip archive contents. Eight years old and still works fine at every online fab in China.
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Take a look at the seeed documentation (link), screen captured below. Also take a look at the contents of the example Gerber .zip archive attached to post #1. Same file extensions. Also take a look at the file creation dates of the .zip archive contents. Eight years old and still works fine at every online fab in China.
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Attachments
Do they take those prepaid/reloadable debit cards? Some places do, others don’t - could be a domestic/foreign issue. I’m not worried about amplifier IP falling into the wrong hands (what could they possibly do with it, take over the world?), but now is a VERY bad time to deal with a credit card hack. When it happens, it does so at bad times, and minimizing non essential use is the only defense. Trying to move all non-essential spending to disposable plastic. Ordering PCBs would fall in that category.
Are there any specific requirements on the gerber files? 274X with embedded drill? Are they expecting a specific decimal precision format - not all export gives the same # of significant digits, or where the decimal point is - or can you specify which? Or are they smart enough to figure whether it’s 3.3 or 2.4 from the source? Is there a list of drill sizes (that they just use the next one up if not in the list?) The cheap US vendors do.
Are there any specific requirements on the gerber files? 274X with embedded drill? Are they expecting a specific decimal precision format - not all export gives the same # of significant digits, or where the decimal point is - or can you specify which? Or are they smart enough to figure whether it’s 3.3 or 2.4 from the source? Is there a list of drill sizes (that they just use the next one up if not in the list?) The cheap US vendors do.
Its good that more than one pcb fab uses the same file naming format for auto loading.
I have never played with trying all drill format files to see if they mess it up. Just use 274X and they will figure it out. No embedded drill stuff, separate combined drill file. They can figure it out if its inch or metric. and size format. Slot info goes in the drill schedule in the gko file and a fab drawing showing the slots, v-cuts etc.
If drill file is interpreted incorrectly the drill hit locations wont line up with the pads so you know its messed up. I can do this with the gerber viewer tool i use gerbtool. esp if I am loading up someone elses fab file data, what ever tool was used to generate it.
However, if you use the gerber file viewer at jlcpcb, you can look at what they show and compare it to your source. it does the job.
Load up one of your designs and try it out, play with their fab file viewer, its different
As for paying, once again, try it out for yourself, I use paypal and they charge you a small paypal fee which I am fine with. I certainly do not want to give them my visa card # For rush orders I use DHL DDP and for no rush, I use the postal service DDP but the weight has to be below a certain amount.
My latest order: including taxes, you have to like it for us folks who like to play with ckts. With a smt or mix tech design, you can fit one heck of alot of circuitry in a 100x100mm pcb for the low cost of, drum roll ... and Mouser and Digkey can have parts to me in a day, man lifes good for electronics design.
5 pcs C$9.12
Merchandise Total: C$9.69
Shipping Charge: C$2.11
Order Total: C$11.80
Build Time: 2 days
I have never played with trying all drill format files to see if they mess it up. Just use 274X and they will figure it out. No embedded drill stuff, separate combined drill file. They can figure it out if its inch or metric. and size format. Slot info goes in the drill schedule in the gko file and a fab drawing showing the slots, v-cuts etc.
If drill file is interpreted incorrectly the drill hit locations wont line up with the pads so you know its messed up. I can do this with the gerber viewer tool i use gerbtool. esp if I am loading up someone elses fab file data, what ever tool was used to generate it.
However, if you use the gerber file viewer at jlcpcb, you can look at what they show and compare it to your source. it does the job.
Load up one of your designs and try it out, play with their fab file viewer, its different
As for paying, once again, try it out for yourself, I use paypal and they charge you a small paypal fee which I am fine with. I certainly do not want to give them my visa card #
For rush orders I use DHL DDP and for no rush, I use the postal service DDP but the weight has to be below a certain amount.My latest order: including taxes, you have to like it for us folks who like to play with ckts. With a smt or mix tech design, you can fit one heck of alot of circuitry in a 100x100mm pcb for the low cost of, drum roll ... and Mouser and Digkey can have parts to me in a day, man lifes good for electronics design.
5 pcs C$9.12
Merchandise Total: C$9.69
Shipping Charge: C$2.11
Order Total: C$11.80
Build Time: 2 days
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I always use the cheapest shipment method and since I use JLCPCB (5 years too) it has improved : currently I receive my order in usually less than 15 days for a shipping price between 1.5 and 10€ according to the quantity of pcb.
Additionally, when you place an order to JLCPCB, LCSC will offer you the shipping if you place the LCSC order during the JLCPCB fabrication process. This is only available for the cheapest shipping method.
Speaking of quality, everybody here seems ok, so am I. But I think the solder mask they apply on the pcb is fragile regarding the one from PCBWay. As this is DIY there's sometime a lot of rework to do....
But anyway I keep going with JLCPCB.$100 haul from JLC. Five of each design, the largest will get reordered at some point (need>5). Shipping was another $70, but I only ordered this a week ago and it’s already here. Sunstone wouldn’t have been much faster, but more than add a zero to the price.
Their online tool seems to interpret gerbers from my ancient PCB software just fine. Dont even have to tell it where the decimal point is - it figures it out. And they do take the ONE card, which all online shopping will be moved over to after the 1st of the year (even a Mouser and PE). Ordering production run for the 5k-watter probably after the holidays. It’s a 5 board set - motherboard/daugherboard for each channel plus a power supervisor. Several units of course. That alone would be a $1600 worth made in the states.
Their online tool seems to interpret gerbers from my ancient PCB software just fine. Dont even have to tell it where the decimal point is - it figures it out. And they do take the ONE card, which all online shopping will be moved over to after the 1st of the year (even a Mouser and PE). Ordering production run for the 5k-watter probably after the holidays. It’s a 5 board set - motherboard/daugherboard for each channel plus a power supervisor. Several units of course. That alone would be a $1600 worth made in the states.
