When you say help from Raal, do you mean you're using a two amt top end and have the raal playing the highest frequencies?? I'm not adverse to using the TPL or the Mundorf. I do like that so many have used and like the tpl, but your comments on the mundorf intrigue me and, well, you are someone who is using it and could give advise on implementation.
So you think the tpl, TD mid and woofer combo would probably best the tweaked and optimized dual TD15/seos24 4594 combo I built? If so, it's a real winner in my book. Even the first run of that speaker did output, imagining and tonal quality really well..needed tweaking to refine it and bring out its best, but still had a bit different sound. I did love how large they sounded too..true wall of sound no doubt, just weren't my absolute preferrence for flavor.
The tpl, td10m, td18h is really pretty inexpensive(when comapred to buying something good commercially, especially because I haven't found something in that space that is my ultimate, gotta have it speaker) and would be great, but my concern is output...I know that sounds crazy, but I really want the safety of headroom and to match efficiency well within the design. A single TD10M becomes the weak link there. In the surrounds its' fine...ported, 60hz tune should get me over 120db/1 meter
down to 80hz. Sealed in the LCR though, it will be a few db low. I should be able to get over 120 from the TPL, almost 130db from the 18 and then 120 if I'm lucky from the single 10. The baffle wall will even bump the output from the 18s higher. Do you think the added complexity of a second ten, in tmm or mtm, plus the 18 is worth it?? Do you think the drawbacks of it are something that can be compensated for??
Wow, big dollars there!! Neat designs too. I've read a lot of what Tony Grimani has had to say over the years, just trying to learn about room design and acoustics etc.
Those really look like a fancy version of what we'd be talking about here with tmmw design.
TD12M-TPL-TD12M MTM resulted in some lobing here. But a steeper filter and lower crossover point could have fixed most of it. Stepping down to a pair of 10Ms should make it a non issue. I also have a BMS/SEOS24 setup and found the TPL150H sounded more detailed up top. It's only downfall is top end dispersion. With a far enough listening distance, it may not be an issue.
I like the sound of that! Have you experimented with different listening distances and how what that real number of vertical degrees is for dispersion before the sound is less than ideal?
Yeah I didn't really want to do the 12 and mis match any more. The ten i like and if you think duals wouldn't bring up the same issues, or so minor they'd be easily fixed without bringing the tpl down to far, I'd do them for sure. You think MTMW is the best configuration? I mean, I'll build them modularly at first to play with, but start with mtmw if you think that would be a winner. I just want to get all ducks in a row, even before getting the material for just the two mains to experiment...I want to be sure if there is anywhere that would be thought to be able to be improved upon, I leave myself open to it. Size and cost aside, I love that you said this would be you're ultimate no compromise mains...makes me feel like I'm on the right track
If space really is of very little concern have you considered the AE IB18HT for your mains?
In a admittedly quite large sealed box (600-1200L) they have an F3 of 22Hz and F10 should somewhere in the mid teens.
With half the size (600L) you get almost the same result though. 600L gives a Qtc of 0.81 and 1200L gives 0.707 so there can be a dB and a couple of Hz in difference between them. You wouldn't need any extra subs for movies though.
Since you use the 10" as a band-limited mid range I suspect that it can easily keep up with a single woofer. If you cut it in at 200Hz it is thermally limited to about 120dBspl and the linear excursion would 'limit' it to 130dB. I don't think you really need to double up on them.
But then it sounds like Face tried them and I haven't so he's probably right.
I can see a monster HT system in my mind with IB18HT + 10M + TPL for front L&R&C and TD18H + 10M + TPL rears. That should be enough for a 150 seater or just enough for home use if you are a headroom freak like me!
The thought makes me quite, quite jealous. ;-)
In a admittedly quite large sealed box (600-1200L) they have an F3 of 22Hz and F10 should somewhere in the mid teens.
With half the size (600L) you get almost the same result though. 600L gives a Qtc of 0.81 and 1200L gives 0.707 so there can be a dB and a couple of Hz in difference between them. You wouldn't need any extra subs for movies though.
Since you use the 10" as a band-limited mid range I suspect that it can easily keep up with a single woofer. If you cut it in at 200Hz it is thermally limited to about 120dBspl and the linear excursion would 'limit' it to 130dB. I don't think you really need to double up on them.
But then it sounds like Face tried them and I haven't so he's probably right.
I can see a monster HT system in my mind with IB18HT + 10M + TPL for front L&R&C and TD18H + 10M + TPL rears. That should be enough for a 150 seater or just enough for home use if you are a headroom freak like me!
The thought makes me quite, quite jealous. ;-)
I had a listen to a system with main drivers like these recently:
Electronic crossover, scanspeak 18W drivers of some sort, the scruffy looking matt paper cones and RAAL tweeters. Supported at the bass end by twin 2X 15" bass at either side, all built into the wall. Which avoids all that annoying bafflestep boost.
Not too sure if it was 5.1 or 7.1, or whether the centre was vertical or horizontal, but it certainly sounded good wall-mounted with the mids spared huge distorting bass excursion.
It's hard to say how loud you want a speaker to go, but wall mounted, I think the Scanspeak 15W MTM/RAAL idea would work well too. Just because these 28L Cabinets might save you some woodwork. I think I've got this right, when you double drivers, they sound 4 times louder for the same individual excursion and distortion levels. Which is surprising but useful.
It's the same idea that a car at 60 mph has 4X the energy of a car at 30 mph. It also means the the neighbours are less annoyed by your system. Something to do with cylindrical dispersion which falls off as inverse distance, rather than spherical inverse square (which just rips your ears out if you get close!).
But what I think is cool about this sort of thing, is the tweeter is cylindrical dispersion along with the mids. Which is the right theory IMO.
Electronic crossover, scanspeak 18W drivers of some sort, the scruffy looking matt paper cones and RAAL tweeters. Supported at the bass end by twin 2X 15" bass at either side, all built into the wall. Which avoids all that annoying bafflestep boost.
Not too sure if it was 5.1 or 7.1, or whether the centre was vertical or horizontal, but it certainly sounded good wall-mounted with the mids spared huge distorting bass excursion.
It's hard to say how loud you want a speaker to go, but wall mounted, I think the Scanspeak 15W MTM/RAAL idea would work well too. Just because these 28L Cabinets might save you some woodwork. I think I've got this right, when you double drivers, they sound 4 times louder for the same individual excursion and distortion levels. Which is surprising but useful.
It's the same idea that a car at 60 mph has 4X the energy of a car at 30 mph. It also means the the neighbours are less annoyed by your system. Something to do with cylindrical dispersion which falls off as inverse distance, rather than spherical inverse square (which just rips your ears out if you get close!).
But what I think is cool about this sort of thing, is the tweeter is cylindrical dispersion along with the mids. Which is the right theory IMO.
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Hey there ChopShop;
Some food for thought, have you at all considered synergy horns for LCR?
I have watched several threads here wanting to build a pair but never put in the effort to learn the horn response program, This year I just caved in and bought a pair of Danley SH50's.
I brought them home and just put them on the floor, not carefully placed, in front of the JBL 4365's. Several things jumped out at me, first is that they will play really LOUD! And sound great doing it. They will flat run away from anything else I have in that respect. Very few speakers just get louder and louder as you turn up the power without sounding different and or strained. My good measurement mics (Earthworks M32's) flat line at 122dB SPL. We hit that 15 feet back in room with a full 6dBV left in the Crown I-Tech 5000HD which could be considered slightly small for powering the SH50 with 3 full dBV of headroom.
Next, pin point imaging, better than I have EVER heard. When watching movies, I was constantly amazed at the sound and voice placement. I know that visual cues can overide audible cues but having only two of these, if they were visually obscured, you likely would not know there was no center. This you have to hear to believe. True point sources are magic. Integration issues no more.
Dynamics, horn loading kills it here. The SH50's are each currently on top of a pair of Danley Mini's, (a 12" sub driver in a 40Hz tapped horn) and the impact is startling.
Not trying to start anything here with anybody but the tweeters and a lot of the drivers that are being discussed here would never work for me. Loud is a relative thing without quantifying it but I know from past experience.
I don't know if you have followed the synntrip threads or any of the other synergy threads but, if you want loud and dynamic and seamless integration, thats where you will find it.
It will be fun to see where you go.
All the best,
Barry.
Some food for thought, have you at all considered synergy horns for LCR?
I have watched several threads here wanting to build a pair but never put in the effort to learn the horn response program, This year I just caved in and bought a pair of Danley SH50's.
I brought them home and just put them on the floor, not carefully placed, in front of the JBL 4365's. Several things jumped out at me, first is that they will play really LOUD! And sound great doing it. They will flat run away from anything else I have in that respect. Very few speakers just get louder and louder as you turn up the power without sounding different and or strained. My good measurement mics (Earthworks M32's) flat line at 122dB SPL. We hit that 15 feet back in room with a full 6dBV left in the Crown I-Tech 5000HD which could be considered slightly small for powering the SH50 with 3 full dBV of headroom.
Next, pin point imaging, better than I have EVER heard. When watching movies, I was constantly amazed at the sound and voice placement. I know that visual cues can overide audible cues but having only two of these, if they were visually obscured, you likely would not know there was no center. This you have to hear to believe. True point sources are magic. Integration issues no more.
Dynamics, horn loading kills it here. The SH50's are each currently on top of a pair of Danley Mini's, (a 12" sub driver in a 40Hz tapped horn) and the impact is startling.
Not trying to start anything here with anybody but the tweeters and a lot of the drivers that are being discussed here would never work for me. Loud is a relative thing without quantifying it but I know from past experience.
I don't know if you have followed the synntrip threads or any of the other synergy threads but, if you want loud and dynamic and seamless integration, thats where you will find it.
It will be fun to see where you go.
All the best,
Barry.
Although the Synergy approach was not the first thing to jump into my head when talking about the no compromise HT system, I think Barry is right and it's well worth a look - and a listen if you can.
I've heard the Danley SH-60 a couple of times, in very different rooms. They are rather amazing. They are clean, have a supremely stable center image, and can play LOUD with no strain in a room the size of a small house. There is a lot to like about them.
I've heard the Danley SH-60 a couple of times, in very different rooms. They are rather amazing. They are clean, have a supremely stable center image, and can play LOUD with no strain in a room the size of a small house. There is a lot to like about them.
Sorry for the confusion.
I meant that the DIY user Raal who is the designer for Raal tweeters helped me learn how to do it.
However, my tools consisted only of OmniMic, and some spreadsheet software. No Raal tweeter was involved.
Best,
Erik
Gotcha, thanks!
I have an Omimic. Was going to ask if there is a better mic I should be considering or if that's fine. I always see guys talking about different mica and preamps etc. I'm also open to getting whatever software, etc will give me the biggest chance at success. I don't know quite what I extent I need to go to for development but I do want to have the best possible tools for the best possible outcome.
As far as electronics, I was thinking about a couple lab lakes. I've seen quite a few really positive reviews on them and I know Keith Yates says that's he go to choice for eq and such. I assume by looking that they have all of the features and abilities I need through the development of xovers and also to implement permanently once done...??
I did think about the ibs, but in a different way. I really want 120db capability throwing ht the spectrum (more really, but that's where the goal is for the ulf) at the listening position. I talked with John prior about using a large number of them in a huge group of dual opposed in manifolds. It would be a silly number to get the displacement needed in an 8000 cube room. I did work with the stereo integrity 24"ers in the past, had eight of them. They are absolute output monsters and quality. They are the front runner for this theater atm. Honestly I'd rather use all AE drivers as I think the quality is fantastic and tbh I'm a bit ocd
If I thought I could achieve the goal with 16 of them, in eight dual opposed manifolds placed at 1/4 points on the baffle wall, I'd love it! I know it sounds crazy, but I was just in a gentleman from Avs theater last week. A little larger than my plan, but not much. Keith Yates dos the room and it took them 14 of the 24s and then more subs distributed the right the sidewalks in order to reach the levels we're talking about. With regard to the 10s, John J told me not to expect more than 120 at 1m in our recent discussion. He talked dual sealed tdm in the mains like Face said and single ported td10m in surrounds. I can experiment for sure, but for a few hundred extra bucks each and some extra work I'd probably err on the side out headroom
As long as the quality of the result remained without too many issues from the mtm configuration.I have to tell you guys, the first time I heard the sh60s I knew the 50s would be the ticket. Then I heard the fifties and I thought there was just something different about the character. I have a friend who's had both so I've gotten to spend a good amount of time listening to them. They are fantastic speakers and do a lot really well. Something about their presentation just didn't suit me, which was really a drag cause I thought they'd make it really easy for me to just buy them and be done. His room is setup very well for them so I know it's not an application issue, just a preference thing. I feel like its a good comparison to Mercedes and bmw. Both quality, but some like one and some like the other.
I'd really love to know what Alcons has going on with their ribbons that gets such better vertical dispersion and even higher output.
I had a listen to a system with main drivers like these recently:
Electronic crossover, scanspeak 18W drivers of some sort, the scruffy looking matt paper cones and RAAL tweeters. Supported at the bass end by twin 2X 15" bass at either side, all built into the wall. Which avoids all that annoying bafflestep boost.
Not too sure if it was 5.1 or 7.1, or whether the centre was vertical or horizontal, but it certainly sounded good wall-mounted with the mids spared huge distorting bass excursion.
It's hard to say how loud you want a speaker to go, but wall mounted, I think the Scanspeak 15W MTM/RAAL idea would work well too. Just because these 28L Cabinets might save you some woodwork. I think I've got this right, when you double drivers, they sound 4 times louder for the same individual excursion and distortion levels. Which is surprising but useful.
It's the same idea that a car at 60 mph has 4X the energy of a car at 30 mph. It also means the the neighbours are less annoyed by your system. Something to do with cylindrical dispersion which falls off as inverse distance, rather than spherical inverse square (which just rips your ears out if you get close!).
But what I think is cool about this sort of thing, is the tweeter is cylindrical dispersion along with the mids. Which is the right theory IMO.
That's a really nice looking speaker! I don't mind the woodwork to be honest. I don't mind the time in any of it, just want to get the absolute best possible result.
I'd never heard the above, pretty interesting concept
Hi ChopShop,
I am really curious to know what you did not like about the Synergy horns? Could you please elaborate on this? I have never had a chance to hear them myself (you do not come across them regularly here in Denmark), but I would definitely very much like to! Thanks a lot!
Best regards
Peter
I am really curious to know what you did not like about the Synergy horns? Could you please elaborate on this? I have never had a chance to hear them myself (you do not come across them regularly here in Denmark), but I would definitely very much like to! Thanks a lot!
Best regards
Peter
I've heard the entire Danley lineup at least once, and the SH-50s several times. I do agree with ChopShop that there is something different about each model. Between the 50 and 60, it isn't a lot, but each model has a distinct tonal balance. Of course all speakers do, I just expected a more consistent tonal balance across the range.
That said, the SH-50 set up well, is no slouch compared with other speakers. It's is head and shoulders above most. For a time, Tom and I were trying to work out a Hi-Fi demo of the SH-50 in my listening room for evaluation and comparison with my custom Altec A5 rig. Never happened, sorry to say. Would have loved to have spent some quality time with the SH-50s
That said, the SH-50 set up well, is no slouch compared with other speakers. It's is head and shoulders above most. For a time, Tom and I were trying to work out a Hi-Fi demo of the SH-50 in my listening room for evaluation and comparison with my custom Altec A5 rig. Never happened, sorry to say. Would have loved to have spent some quality time with the SH-50s
The 60s, to me, had the most balanced sound. They were really pretty smooth and presented extremely well. It was the bottom portion of frequencies covered by them that were lacking...if I had to guess, the 80-300hz range...but don't take that range to heart entirely as that's a best guess of what I was hearing. At that point I thought the 50s would be the ticket and figured once I heard them it would be game over....they'd be the 60s with the slam I was looking for that was missing in the 60s. Surprisingly to me, the were a bit different and didn't delivery as much on the lower end as I thought they would. I kept notes when late info because I didn't want to rely on memory when making comparisons. My notes say I felt the 50s were a bit more "lean" and something about the staging just seemed off. I'm not experienced enough to have known exactly what, but it just didn't seem right. i have written that definitively the 60s were much more pleasing to me and sounded balanced with exception of that lower end. I've wondered more than once if with the right tools, active and eq'd they could be brought in to where I want.
Danley has even said as much - that, in effect, he would voice them differently for home use. Its clear from looking at their FRs that you get could smoother with active EQ and XO. You could also build in a house curve. If you find the low end slightly lacking, then cross them over to subs a little higher. You do have all those AE woofers still, don't you?
I still have a few. John has always been great with me so I'm happy to order whatever I have to.
I may swing back through my friends place when I'd have a full day to play with the sh50 and tweak with him to see if I could make them work too. Not that I won't continue this project too, but it would be cool to build these and compare
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