The cone resonances don't get worse the louder you play it, everything is relative.
Simpler is rarely 'better' unless simpler gets the job done. Yes they are still open sounding. As both Sreten and I have mentioned, you should be aiming for 4th order acoustic slopes, which is the drivers natural roll off combined with the electrical filter.
That phase shift is nothing other then phase wrap which is a product of the 'measuring' or phase extrapolation process. Usually it occurs when there's excessive 'time of flight' before the impulse response.
Here is an example of just that, the second picture represents the same system but with both drivers delayed by 300us. Neither one is 'right' or 'wrong' because the important factor is that the phase response describes the relative difference between the two drivers. This remains the same whether the drivers are delayed by x seconds or not.
As I mentioned before to check for the drivers being phase aligned through the crossover region, for an even order xover you invert the polarity of one of the drivers, this should create a nice symmetrical notch about the xover frequency. Such as this...
I think you are getting far too ahead of yourself on this and adding in complexities and variables that are as of yet unimportant. Driver selection is important, but by far the most important aspect is the crossover. You should be able to design a very nice sounding loudspeaker with most of the tweeters mentioned in this thread. The differences between most of them will be quite small when implemented properly. The DX25 would be a good place to start as it is inexpensive and performs extremely well for the price.
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Yeah, that's indeed what it does when I flip polarity on one of the drivers.
My hang-up was a misunderstanding on my part on the difference between electrical and acoustic slopes.
The crossover in my last design sucked for years until I posted it and Jerome helped me make a better one (which looks scary similar to this one). This is officially my first crack at getting it right without someone having to tell me what values to use and where to put em
I appreciate all the suggestions and the learning so far.
Edit: I think I've got the woofer to behave, but I'm starting to think the easiest way to fix the l-pad might be to use an actual L-pad and adjust it by ear.
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This seems to be a common misunderstanding and is a large stumbling block that people sometimes seem unable (at least to start with) to get over.
A lot of the time electrical filters do look very similar because similar designs need a similar approach in the attempt to design them properly.
This tends to be a good idea anyway, come up with different values for the Lpad so that you can adjust the tweeter level in 0.5dB steps or something. Usually all you need to do is alter the value of the shunt resistor of the Lpad in parallel with the tweeter.
LOL, now that I'm looking for links about the B&G, I realize that my current speaker only needs this tweeter and a minor crossover adjustment to become a ZX Spectrum.
*sigh*
Well, what do you know...after a little looking around, it looks as though the work has been done.
DAYTON RS180S - NEO3PDR
*sigh*
Well, what do you know...after a little looking around, it looks as though the work has been done.
DAYTON RS180S - NEO3PDR
Well there's nothing wrong with building a kit and as long as it's designed correctly you're onto a winner. The transfer functions for the filters look decent enough.
One thing I will say though is that with the availability of kits nowadays to really build something that's comparable you will need measuring equipment of your own, decent CAD software and then know how to use it/know what you're doing.
My only issue with that design is the xover frequency of 2400hz, really it would be better a bit lower down.
One thing I will say though is that with the availability of kits nowadays to really build something that's comparable you will need measuring equipment of your own, decent CAD software and then know how to use it/know what you're doing.
My only issue with that design is the xover frequency of 2400hz, really it would be better a bit lower down.
That might be easy enough to tweak, I've probably got enough spare junk in my parts bin to move the crossover around a bit.
I just wish I could get the BG tweeter for the price that he did, the best I can find is in the 50's.
You should carefully suppress resonance for the Dayton RS180. Don't be afraid to complicated the crossover.
This one is not enough. Simple but not very efficient with this hard cone.
But i like this one ! it is not so bad A LR6, 36dB/octave
You don't use a lot of components and all resonances are suppressed.
It is a pity, because speakerworkshop don't generate LR6 goals.
In general a LR4 is sufficient for most of applications but a LR6, why not ?
This one is not enough. Simple but not very efficient with this hard cone.
But i like this one ! it is not so bad
A LR6, 36dB/octave You don't use a lot of components and all resonances are suppressed.
It is a pity, because speakerworkshop don't generate LR6 goals.
In general a LR4 is sufficient for most of applications but a LR6, why not ?
You should carefully suppress resonance for the Dayton RS180. Don't be afraid to complicated the crossover.
This one is not enough. Simple but not very efficient with this hard cone.
But i like this one ! it is not so bad
You don't use a lot of components and all resonances are suppressed.
It is a pity, because speakerworkshop don't generate LR6 goals.
In general a LR4 is sufficient for most of applications but a LR6, why not ?
Hi,
Quite frankly you don't know what you are talking about.
LR4 acoustic is quite doable, and suits relatively cheap drivers.
LR6 is simply not a good option on cost and phase wrap issues.
4th order electrical on the bass mid is nowhere near as elegant
as an electrical elliptical for 4th order L/R acoustic. The cheap
Vifa tweeter I suggested again only needs 2nd order electrical
for 4th order L/R acoustic, and you can cross it very low.
If you can do LR4 acoustic (drivers need to be wired in phase)
with relatively simple electrical networks, it will be better than
LR6 acoustic, the extra complication and cost doesn't help.
rgds, sreten.
Ahhh! I love you guys! I've got all these different crossovers saved, I think in the end, I might try them all, just for fun!
In my own experience though, I've noticed something about crossover slopes on some crossovers that I haven't designed, but listened to. I've noticed that some of the steeper crossovers tend to "cramp" the presentation of some speakers. I had a chance to listen to a pair of speakers that a friend of mine had in his store (a stereo shop) where he had set up a 12db/oct xo. While we were talking about the crossover and the slope, he suddenly jumped up and said "well, here's what it would sound like as a 6db crossover!"
He changed a few jumpers on the crossover (which he always had outside the box, on top of the speaker) and much to my amazement, the stereo image and the space that the sound occupied suddenly just fell open. Sounds that were laying flat against the wall were suddenly popping out all over the room. It was an amazing transformation, and the A/B testing that we did is what's influenced my thinking every since.
Now, I understand that some of the differences might have been poor design, but I've always been a fan of simpler crossovers as a result.
I've spent most of the day thinking about it, and I think what I'm going to try to do is snatch the Cryolite design from lonesaguaro.
I'm attached to the idea of trying something on my own, but it's very difficult now that I've found one that's already done I may try moving the x/o point a little lower.
Does anyone have any criticism on the design that Lonesaguaro did here?
DAYTON RS180S - NEO3PDR
In my own experience though, I've noticed something about crossover slopes on some crossovers that I haven't designed, but listened to. I've noticed that some of the steeper crossovers tend to "cramp" the presentation of some speakers. I had a chance to listen to a pair of speakers that a friend of mine had in his store (a stereo shop) where he had set up a 12db/oct xo. While we were talking about the crossover and the slope, he suddenly jumped up and said "well, here's what it would sound like as a 6db crossover!"
He changed a few jumpers on the crossover (which he always had outside the box, on top of the speaker) and much to my amazement, the stereo image and the space that the sound occupied suddenly just fell open. Sounds that were laying flat against the wall were suddenly popping out all over the room. It was an amazing transformation, and the A/B testing that we did is what's influenced my thinking every since.
Now, I understand that some of the differences might have been poor design, but I've always been a fan of simpler crossovers as a result.
I've spent most of the day thinking about it, and I think what I'm going to try to do is snatch the Cryolite design from lonesaguaro.
I'm attached to the idea of trying something on my own, but it's very difficult now that I've found one that's already done
I may try moving the x/o point a little lower.Does anyone have any criticism on the design that Lonesaguaro did here?
DAYTON RS180S - NEO3PDR
Dr Dyna, it is a good thing to test the different crossovers...
If you compare your "LR6" design, you use less components, 10 against 13 in the Lonesaguaro's design with a better suppression of nasty peaks and better power handling.
Sreten, some people: you, fullrangers, seem ignore cone distortion is far worse than "complication of crossover". I conclude they have done a lot of crossover if their life. LR6, LR8 etc. exist, why aren't we afraid to use them ? Second thing, they seem ignore, you design a crossover with goals, basic in crossovers. The goals are important not the "complication"... The number of components is important only for the price.
Just for information, take a look to zaph contest
Zaph|Audio - Design Contest Results
A winner use a LR6@1.1kHz . Zaph is not a beginner and i don't think he don't know what he is talking about. I am sure he listened design
http://www.zaphaudio.com/contest-Alexandre-CHAMAGNE-2way.jpg
LRx (X>4) exists, then use them !
If you compare your "LR6" design, you use less components, 10 against 13 in the Lonesaguaro's design with a better suppression of nasty peaks and better power handling.
Sreten, some people: you, fullrangers, seem ignore cone distortion is far worse than "complication of crossover"
. I conclude they have done a lot of crossover if their life. LR6, LR8 etc. exist, why aren't we afraid to use them ? Second thing, they seem ignore, you design a crossover with goals, basic in crossovers. The goals are important not the "complication"... The number of components is important only for the price.Just for information, take a look to zaph contest
Zaph|Audio - Design Contest Results
A winner use a LR6@1.1kHz . Zaph is not a beginner and i don't think he don't know what he is talking about. I am sure he listened design
http://www.zaphaudio.com/contest-Alexandre-CHAMAGNE-2way.jpg
LRx (X>4) exists, then use them !
Wow, I've never seen this contest page before and I've poked around on Zaph's site quite a bit. I'm starting to read through these and look at the designs and the observations for each one and I think that this design contest thing is going to teach me more about good design than anything I've read thus far.
Awesome!
Awesome!
Dr Dyna, it is a good thing to test the different crossovers...
If you compare your "LR6" design, you use less components, 10 against 13 in the Lonesaguaro's design with a better suppression of nasty peaks and better power handling.
Sreten, some people: you, fullrangers, seem ignore cone distortion is far worse than "complication of crossover"
Just for information, take a look to zaph contest
Zaph|Audio - Design Contest Results
A winner use a LR6@1.1kHz . Zaph is not a beginner and i don't think he don't know what he is talking about. I am sure he listened design
http://www.zaphaudio.com/contest-Alexandre-CHAMAGNE-2way.jpg
LRx (X>4) exists, then use them !
Hi,
It is debatable whether the cost and complication of using LR6 to get such
a low c/o point is worth it, given the size of the bass/mid in that competition.
The overall winner was LR4 at 1.6kHz as the best compromise.
Note that the LR2 winning designer, Jay Kim has a RS180 design :
Dayton RS180 2-Way
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I mentioned this earlier. The above is LR4 at 1.55KHz.
And it it uses Zaph's topology that I suggested earlier as the most simple.
It does not ignore the issues as you suggest above, its a nice approach.
rgds, sreten.
undefinition (see FAQs)
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/zx-spectrum
Hi, some info on the Neo 3 in the above, rgds, sreten.
Hi, some info on the Neo 3 in the above, rgds, sreten.
Well, I'm thinking that this design I'm working on now is going to end up being my new permanent main speaker. I'll probably start with the crossover that's published and over the next few months, build a couple of others just to experiment with, maybe my LR6 or one of the other designs floating around that have the RS180+something.
It'll give me something to do!
Yes, I was reading this one yesterday. I almost just ordered tweeters and a few minor crossover changes because I already have that woofer in my main speaker, but I really want to give the RS180 a try.
His spectrum XO is dead simple though, I really like it.
Well, I just had an interesting conversation on the phone with a gentleman from GR Research, where I was planning on ordering the tweeter.
He had nothing nice to say about the Dayton RS180.
This project might be doomed...DOOMED! Just about everything is going to get changed! Maybe I need to go for a jog and figure out what I'm going to do.
He had nothing nice to say about the Dayton RS180.
This project might be doomed...DOOMED! Just about everything is going to get changed! Maybe I need to go for a jog and figure out what I'm going to do.
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