Fran - exactly how big is "reasonably big"? much more than about 300ft^2 could (or 2400ft^3) could well cause some loss of bass, without resorting to BSC. I've never felt the need for it in my own system, but smaller room / different amp(s) etc. ....
Have you tried removing the ESL panels from the listening area? Those large, damped diaphragms could well be acting as bass absorbers.
At the same time, you might want to try pulling the Fonkens closer to the back wall - starting around 2ft or so.
The other factor that I can't recall seeing mentioned yet is - what type of amplifier?
Dave would have broken the drivers in before the treatment, and they're closely matched post treatment for T/S parameters, so while they'll continue to improve for the next couple of hundred hours of playing time, there's no point waiting to if there's other factors.
For those absolutely needing some bottom end augmentation, there is a dedicated woofer design for this system that Dave could describe.
Have you tried removing the ESL panels from the listening area? Those large, damped diaphragms could well be acting as bass absorbers.
At the same time, you might want to try pulling the Fonkens closer to the back wall - starting around 2ft or so.
The other factor that I can't recall seeing mentioned yet is - what type of amplifier?
Dave would have broken the drivers in before the treatment, and they're closely matched post treatment for T/S parameters, so while they'll continue to improve for the next couple of hundred hours of playing time, there's no point waiting to if there's other factors.
For those absolutely needing some bottom end augmentation, there is a dedicated woofer design for this system that Dave could describe.
OK,
will move the quads out of the way. The amp is a 10WPC EL84 in PP - SYs red district amp from the tubes section. Pre is an aikido.
I was thinking about this afterwards. Maybe its that the mids and treble are dominating a bit and thats whats making the bass seem a little subdued. Maybe a little filling in the cabinets would help a bit.
As to the towers, I just don't know. All my measurements are ok to + or - 1mm so it shouldn't be that anyway. Maybe some filling would help there too - Dave mentions it in the plans.
I will listen more tonight and experiment a bit more with positioning.
The room is an odd shape - about 6m x 9m x 2.5m (18x27x8.5ft) but thats broken up with furniture, etc etc. So yes the room is probably a bit big for the speakers.
Fran
will move the quads out of the way. The amp is a 10WPC EL84 in PP - SYs red district amp from the tubes section. Pre is an aikido.
I was thinking about this afterwards. Maybe its that the mids and treble are dominating a bit and thats whats making the bass seem a little subdued. Maybe a little filling in the cabinets would help a bit.
As to the towers, I just don't know. All my measurements are ok to + or - 1mm so it shouldn't be that anyway. Maybe some filling would help there too - Dave mentions it in the plans.
I will listen more tonight and experiment a bit more with positioning.
The room is an odd shape - about 6m x 9m x 2.5m (18x27x8.5ft) but thats broken up with furniture, etc etc. So yes the room is probably a bit big for the speakers.
Fran
Fran - a few more thoughts, then I'm about tapped out:
Your room is almost 3 times the volume of my little cave, but certainly not larger than Dave's main salon. Obviously, I hear more weight and extension with the Fonkens alone in my system than Dave, but he has several choices of powered woofers to enlist to the task.
For a small to moderate room, and "normal listening levels" (whatever those are) , the power of the RLD should be plenty - all of my listening is done with less than 5wpc .
For a reality check, how complicated would it be to temporarily migrate the system to a smaller room (like say when the wife is enjoying your gift of day-spa treatment?
)
While not renowned for party levels of SPL or bass extension themselves, when properly set up and in prime operating condition, the Quad ESL is quite a benchmark for any commercial mini-monitor or DIY 4" FR single driver to assail - you could be seriously spoiled. Considering that Peter Walker's original design is over 50yrs old, this is quite remarkable indeed.
I'd never want to dissuade someone from playing with the little Fostex, but a room this size is very well suited to larger systems, including dipole planars, or OB's . If you still have the DIY bug
, you might want to seriously consider something like MJK's recent OB project, or any of numerous others.
Your room is almost 3 times the volume of my little cave, but certainly not larger than Dave's main salon. Obviously, I hear more weight and extension with the Fonkens alone in my system than Dave, but he has several choices of powered woofers to enlist to the task.
For a small to moderate room, and "normal listening levels" (whatever those are) , the power of the RLD should be plenty - all of my listening is done with less than 5wpc .
For a reality check, how complicated would it be to temporarily migrate the system to a smaller room (like say when the wife is enjoying your gift of day-spa treatment?
)While not renowned for party levels of SPL or bass extension themselves, when properly set up and in prime operating condition, the Quad ESL is quite a benchmark for any commercial mini-monitor or DIY 4" FR single driver to assail - you could be seriously spoiled. Considering that Peter Walker's original design is over 50yrs old, this is quite remarkable indeed.
I'd never want to dissuade someone from playing with the little Fostex, but a room this size is very well suited to larger systems, including dipole planars, or OB's . If you still have the DIY bug
, you might want to seriously consider something like MJK's recent OB project, or any of numerous others.OK, good news!!!
I think I may have this more or less sorted. What I did (on a whim) was to add some filling to each fonken. I used polyester pillow filling - 70% poly/30% cotton - and about 1/2 a pillow between the 2 speakers and placed in towards the back of the cabinet each side of the baffle.
Not as shouty now, and there is a definite reinforcement of the bass - or else the highs have been tamed a bit to bring them more into line with the bass. A lot of the edginess or borderline harshness is gone too. I can see though how adding too much filling would totally suck the life out of them.
All that is without messing about with placement - its still exactly as per the pic above.
So I'm quite a happy bunny right now. I will have to go back and experiment a bit more with the towers now and see would some of that help them too.
ChrisB: I read somewhere that these were better suited to single ended amps and mine is push pull. But somewhere I read (can't think where right now) that adding a 30R resistor in series with the hot speaker cable would sort out that compatabilty issue. Is that worth pursuing? What wattage resistor would be suitable?
Fran
I think I may have this more or less sorted. What I did (on a whim) was to add some filling to each fonken. I used polyester pillow filling - 70% poly/30% cotton - and about 1/2 a pillow between the 2 speakers and placed in towards the back of the cabinet each side of the baffle.
Not as shouty now, and there is a definite reinforcement of the bass - or else the highs have been tamed a bit to bring them more into line with the bass. A lot of the edginess or borderline harshness is gone too. I can see though how adding too much filling would totally suck the life out of them.
All that is without messing about with placement - its still exactly as per the pic above.
So I'm quite a happy bunny right now. I will have to go back and experiment a bit more with the towers now and see would some of that help them too.
ChrisB: I read somewhere that these were better suited to single ended amps and mine is push pull. But somewhere I read (can't think where right now) that adding a 30R resistor in series with the hot speaker cable would sort out that compatabilty issue. Is that worth pursuing? What wattage resistor would be suitable?
Fran
woodturner-fran said:
Good news for sure, but I'd still suggest you see what happens with the ESL's out of the room
As to SE vs PP - IINM, it's at least partly a damping factor issue, so one of the quick fixes certainly would be a bit of series R - 30 might be a bit high, but again YMMV - I'd guess that 5w capacity on the resistor would probably be overkill.
The only time I tried this was to tame the rising top end of FE126 and FF125K in a non-BLH design, and while it certainly adjusted the tonal balance, there was too much penalty paid in terms of the dynamics and "jump factor" that are among these latter drivers' attributes. No doubt my amps' power and output topology entered into the calculus here.
of course an amp with adjustable damping factor could answer that question as well - just dial it in until things sound right
OK,
things are on the way up!
I had a friend over this evening to listen in as well and we tried a few different values of R in series. Turns out best performance came with 7.5R in series (actually 2 cheap 15R 2w carbon comps in parallel). We tried 0, 5, 7.5, 9.8, and 15R. 15R sucked the life out of them and some of the image depth. A second pair of educated ears is a real bonus when your at this. Both of us remarked how remarkable the change was from 5 to 7 to 9.8. This is obviously a critical value in my set up.
That bit of harshness is all but gone while keeping the imaging and clarity. Borrowing a SET amp is something that would be interesting.
I could go and buy some fancy 7R resistor, but this sounds so good I think I might just make up an adaptor with what I have. It sounds that good.
For whatever reason, the bit of resistance also helps the bass too - not much, but it seems to give it a bit more grunt, or body.
These are now performing at a pretty high level - remember my references are some quads.
Fran
things are on the way up!
I had a friend over this evening to listen in as well and we tried a few different values of R in series. Turns out best performance came with 7.5R in series (actually 2 cheap 15R 2w carbon comps in parallel). We tried 0, 5, 7.5, 9.8, and 15R. 15R sucked the life out of them and some of the image depth. A second pair of educated ears is a real bonus when your at this. Both of us remarked how remarkable the change was from 5 to 7 to 9.8. This is obviously a critical value in my set up.
That bit of harshness is all but gone while keeping the imaging and clarity. Borrowing a SET amp is something that would be interesting.
I could go and buy some fancy 7R resistor, but this sounds so good I think I might just make up an adaptor with what I have. It sounds that good.
For whatever reason, the bit of resistance also helps the bass too - not much, but it seems to give it a bit more grunt, or body.
These are now performing at a pretty high level - remember my references are some quads.
Fran
Thanks SCD.
I'm going to have a go at winding an inductor later to try it as a full blown BSC and see.
I do intend to add stuffing to the towers. If I can bring up their performance a bit I think I would spring for a pair of unmodded FE127 and try the enabling myself. More pillows please!
Fran
I'm going to have a go at winding an inductor later to try it as a full blown BSC and see.
I do intend to add stuffing to the towers. If I can bring up their performance a bit I think I would spring for a pair of unmodded FE127 and try the enabling myself. More pillows please!
Fran
Well, my inductor winding didn't do much - the resistor in series was better. But I think I might have that edginess sorted with a little more filling in the cabinet. To assess more completely I need to spend more time listening to a wider range of music and formats.
But its looking good.
Fran
But its looking good.
Fran
OK, so after some more listening, the extra filling has definitely helped things. Although the clarity and soundstage are still there - and the fact that this could be harsh with some music - I have a much more easy-on-the ear set of speakers now. Interestingly, although I have some pretty sibilant recordings, and I can hear the sibilance with the fonkens, it isn't as annoying as with the quads. Now maybe the physical size of the speaker is doing something there. It doesn't sound like you'd think either. Yes there is a magic with vocals and acoustics, but they fare much better with rock than you'd think. They will go pretty loud too - as loud as I'd ever want them to anyway. They really do disappear very well and imaging is just great. I think that if you love quads, you would like these speakers. I'm doing my best to listen to a wide range of music from analogue and digital sources to try and get a handle on them. So far it is an excellent performer.
I don't have equipment for measuring levels etc, but when I ran a test CD I got no sound at all until 30Hz, becoming audible at 40, useful at 50 and then steadily rising until >100. The treble I can hear at 16kHz - which is where I stop hearing anything from my quads (my hearing or them, I don't know). When I run a sweep it plays very smooth all the way up with no areas exaggerated.
I'm guessing that the response is slowly falling off from about 90 down to 60 and then drops much more rapidly after that. Wouldn't that be what is expected here? I think the next step now is to move them back against the wall and experiment a bit more with positioning and the stands. That could just help wring another bit out of them.
To other who are using these - how did you position them? Did you just follow the triangle rule or have you done something different?
After positioning them and trying for that last bit, I will take out the drivers and go back to the towers and do some more experiments with them to see whats going on. Suggestions for those would be greatly appreciated.
Fran
Oh yeah - thanks a million for all the help and advice so far!
I don't have equipment for measuring levels etc, but when I ran a test CD I got no sound at all until 30Hz, becoming audible at 40, useful at 50 and then steadily rising until >100. The treble I can hear at 16kHz - which is where I stop hearing anything from my quads (my hearing or them, I don't know). When I run a sweep it plays very smooth all the way up with no areas exaggerated.
I'm guessing that the response is slowly falling off from about 90 down to 60 and then drops much more rapidly after that. Wouldn't that be what is expected here? I think the next step now is to move them back against the wall and experiment a bit more with positioning and the stands. That could just help wring another bit out of them.
To other who are using these - how did you position them? Did you just follow the triangle rule or have you done something different?
After positioning them and trying for that last bit, I will take out the drivers and go back to the towers and do some more experiments with them to see whats going on. Suggestions for those would be greatly appreciated.
Fran
Oh yeah - thanks a million for all the help and advice so far!
Fran - are the ESL panels still behind the Fonkens?
I'm still thinking that they might very well be trapping some of the the upper mid-bass output.
For placement, - about 2ft from the back wall and approx 6ft apart is were I find the sweet spot in my own space - but as I said before, my room is a fraction of the size of yours.
Then of course you could always play with interconnects and speaker wiring - 2 widely overlooked tone controls. FWIW, I'm using homemade cables with a single strand of CAT5 wire (AKA #24 solid copper/teflon insulated) for both signal and speaker conductors.
Enjoy,
I'm still thinking that they might very well be trapping some of the the upper mid-bass output.
For placement, - about 2ft from the back wall and approx 6ft apart is were I find the sweet spot in my own space - but as I said before, my room is a fraction of the size of yours.
Then of course you could always play with interconnects and speaker wiring - 2 widely overlooked tone controls. FWIW, I'm using homemade cables with a single strand of CAT5 wire (AKA #24 solid copper/teflon insulated) for both signal and speaker conductors.
Enjoy,
Hi Chris,
No, I moved them out of the way. Interestingly it made a difference with the standmounters (on which more later) that with the fonkens. I probably would have had them about the same positioning as you.
Given what I have heard so far, I think I will still add a little more filling to the speaker. It seems to tame the highs quite a bit - but there is a danger in taking the magic away too. I would say its one fo those things where I'll just have to experiment. Speaking of experiments, the other 2 things that I want to do is try a BSC and also move them to a smaller room.
Progress:
I was happy enough with the fonkens, so I took the drivers out and brought them back out to the workshop to start finishing them. I have my first layer of filler on as we speak. Gloss black and cream is what I think I'll go for.
So I went back at the standmounters again. I added some filling, about 1/2 pillow in each and again, it made quite a difference. I intend adding more (and this is with the 8R in series still). Heres the other thing: with them close to the back wall, they do go lower than the fonkens, I can start hearing them at 30Hz, with more decent output at 40 and much better at 60Hz. I would say they have maybe an extra 10Hz on the fonkens. But, (there's always a but!) thats with them closer again to the wall, maybe 6" or so. And at that level, there is a major loss of image depth. Bring them back out from the wall and the depth returns, but the bass drops a bit. I think with some decent time spent at these, I could get the positioning well adjusted.
However, I don't think they sound as good as the fonkens. They seem to get a little more confused, maybe lifeless, with some music. They do the stereotypical jazz and acoustic excellently, but put on some rock or busy intense passages and they get shouty very quick. I thinking of stuff like sufjan stevens illinoise for example. And when they get shouty they turn all mean and harsh. I think overall, they lack some "body" - its the kind of thing I'd imagine you might hear if you had some suckout in the mid bass I think.
What I'm going to do is clean them up, spray them and hold onto them. If I buy a second pair of drivers, I'll fit them and experiment some more. They would be ideal as part of a 5.1 system - not that I have any of the equipment for that, but you never know down the line.
I know all I've written is a bit wishy-washy, I just don't have the right terminology to describe what I'm hearing.
The same things can happen to the fonkens, but they seem to be more tolerant of the material and it isn't as noticeable. I think both pairs probably lack bass a bit (hence me wanting to try the BSC) and if you are a basshead, then they would not suit. However, the mid bass, midrange and top end are damn good. They would have more clarity than the quads - and that's really saying something. If you are building some of these, I think you need to spend some time tuning them to make sure they aren't harsh - they don't need to be and it would be a shame to leave them like that.
Again, thanks for all the support so far. I might just have to have a go at another type of speaker now, maybe a non-full-range one this time. Or maybe a horn or something.
Fran
No, I moved them out of the way. Interestingly it made a difference with the standmounters (on which more later) that with the fonkens. I probably would have had them about the same positioning as you.
Given what I have heard so far, I think I will still add a little more filling to the speaker. It seems to tame the highs quite a bit - but there is a danger in taking the magic away too. I would say its one fo those things where I'll just have to experiment. Speaking of experiments, the other 2 things that I want to do is try a BSC and also move them to a smaller room.
Progress:
I was happy enough with the fonkens, so I took the drivers out and brought them back out to the workshop to start finishing them. I have my first layer of filler on as we speak. Gloss black and cream is what I think I'll go for.
So I went back at the standmounters again. I added some filling, about 1/2 pillow in each and again, it made quite a difference. I intend adding more (and this is with the 8R in series still). Heres the other thing: with them close to the back wall, they do go lower than the fonkens, I can start hearing them at 30Hz, with more decent output at 40 and much better at 60Hz. I would say they have maybe an extra 10Hz on the fonkens. But, (there's always a but!) thats with them closer again to the wall, maybe 6" or so. And at that level, there is a major loss of image depth. Bring them back out from the wall and the depth returns, but the bass drops a bit. I think with some decent time spent at these, I could get the positioning well adjusted.
However, I don't think they sound as good as the fonkens. They seem to get a little more confused, maybe lifeless, with some music. They do the stereotypical jazz and acoustic excellently, but put on some rock or busy intense passages and they get shouty very quick. I thinking of stuff like sufjan stevens illinoise for example. And when they get shouty they turn all mean and harsh. I think overall, they lack some "body" - its the kind of thing I'd imagine you might hear if you had some suckout in the mid bass I think.
What I'm going to do is clean them up, spray them and hold onto them. If I buy a second pair of drivers, I'll fit them and experiment some more. They would be ideal as part of a 5.1 system - not that I have any of the equipment for that, but you never know down the line.
I know all I've written is a bit wishy-washy, I just don't have the right terminology to describe what I'm hearing.
The same things can happen to the fonkens, but they seem to be more tolerant of the material and it isn't as noticeable. I think both pairs probably lack bass a bit (hence me wanting to try the BSC) and if you are a basshead, then they would not suit. However, the mid bass, midrange and top end are damn good. They would have more clarity than the quads - and that's really saying something. If you are building some of these, I think you need to spend some time tuning them to make sure they aren't harsh - they don't need to be and it would be a shame to leave them like that.
Again, thanks for all the support so far. I might just have to have a go at another type of speaker now, maybe a non-full-range one this time. Or maybe a horn or something.
Fran
Success Yipeee!!
Good for you Fran:
It is good to hear you got the troubles mostly worked out.
I do not have a definitive comment on the floorstander but I do have an un-informed thought or two. The difference in performance you are describing I have also heard. For me it was in a set of MLTLs that are tuned below Fs.
I think the success of the onken presentation is that there is resistance provided by port size and shape and the cabinet tuning is a little higher. This resistance "holds" back the driver when it is trying to reproduce those very low notes. To reproduce the very low notes the drive has to go all the way to X-max and beyond. The motor has the least amount of control on the cone at X-max, as most of the voice coil is outside the magnetic field. The result is the driver is trying to produce the high notes when it is at x-max. There is not so much control and things get ugly, and compressed and nasty real fast.
Things to try: Change the tuning of the cabinet, and or put a high pass filter set to ~ 75% Fs to get rid of the very low notes.
For placement I have mine set on either side of a couch ~7ft apart and slightly toed in. They are bi-polar and tuned to get maximum imaging off the window wall behind them. They disappear into a huge blissful sound stage.
I have considered a bass cabinet for the frequencies below 50htz but so far I have not bothered to build it. I am quite happy with my set up. More bass would only get me in trouble during beer drinking listening sessinos.
Have you tried it with your F4 yet?
Good for you Fran:
It is good to hear you got the troubles mostly worked out.
I do not have a definitive comment on the floorstander but I do have an un-informed thought or two. The difference in performance you are describing I have also heard. For me it was in a set of MLTLs that are tuned below Fs.
I think the success of the onken presentation is that there is resistance provided by port size and shape and the cabinet tuning is a little higher. This resistance "holds" back the driver when it is trying to reproduce those very low notes. To reproduce the very low notes the drive has to go all the way to X-max and beyond. The motor has the least amount of control on the cone at X-max, as most of the voice coil is outside the magnetic field. The result is the driver is trying to produce the high notes when it is at x-max. There is not so much control and things get ugly, and compressed and nasty real fast.
Things to try: Change the tuning of the cabinet, and or put a high pass filter set to ~ 75% Fs to get rid of the very low notes.
For placement I have mine set on either side of a couch ~7ft apart and slightly toed in. They are bi-polar and tuned to get maximum imaging off the window wall behind them. They disappear into a huge blissful sound stage.
I have considered a bass cabinet for the frequencies below 50htz but so far I have not bothered to build it. I am quite happy with my set up. More bass would only get me in trouble during beer drinking listening sessinos.
Have you tried it with your F4 yet?
eh, well I don't have a F4 (is that one of the pass amps?).
I'm driving it with an aikido pre and an EL84 PP amp (SYs red district amp from the tubes forum)
You explanation sounds very logical to me - you most likely are correct. If thats the case, then thats also why adding some stuffing helped things a bit I suppose.
Fran
I'm driving it with an aikido pre and an EL84 PP amp (SYs red district amp from the tubes forum)
You explanation sounds very logical to me - you most likely are correct. If thats the case, then thats also why adding some stuffing helped things a bit I suppose.
Fran
Hello Chris:
I am sure Dave can explain the onken thing better.
I think it works on the concepts surrounding aperiodic enclosures; Semi-leaky resistive ports. In this case it is controlled resistance with tuned ports. Onken presentations do not work with all drivers but the ones they do work with work well.
The front end to my set up is a Pro-ject turntable with AN MQ1 into a bottlehead seduction phono stage and a Cambridge Audio d500 disc player fed into an Cambridge Audio A500se as a pre amp into an F4. I think I am only putting out a watt or so at full on. Nothing real fancy but it makes my evening sunsets a blissful experience.
On the bench and getting dusty is a half finished 6SN7 Aikido. I have all the parts for the Aikido but seem to be having trouble with the time aspect of the project. I wishfully hope to get back on track with audio hobbies this spring. But as you know that is not alway my decision to make.
I must work on my negotiation skills
Sorry Fran I thought you had an F4
I am sure Dave can explain the onken thing better.
I think it works on the concepts surrounding aperiodic enclosures; Semi-leaky resistive ports. In this case it is controlled resistance with tuned ports. Onken presentations do not work with all drivers but the ones they do work with work well.
The front end to my set up is a Pro-ject turntable with AN MQ1 into a bottlehead seduction phono stage and a Cambridge Audio d500 disc player fed into an Cambridge Audio A500se as a pre amp into an F4. I think I am only putting out a watt or so at full on. Nothing real fancy but it makes my evening sunsets a blissful experience.
On the bench and getting dusty is a half finished 6SN7 Aikido. I have all the parts for the Aikido but seem to be having trouble with the time aspect of the project. I wishfully hope to get back on track with audio hobbies this spring. But as you know that is not alway my decision to make.
I must work on my negotiation skills
Sorry Fran I thought you had an F4
OT warning
SCD,
could you point me towards some info on the F4 - would this be one of those current delivery amps? I'm looking for a low power SS amp to have a go at. Something that there would be PCBs available for would be great. I think that pass labs do some stuff for DIYers don't they?
Fran
i take it that it sounds great with the fonkens?
SCD,
could you point me towards some info on the F4 - would this be one of those current delivery amps? I'm looking for a low power SS amp to have a go at. Something that there would be PCBs available for would be great. I think that pass labs do some stuff for DIYers don't they?
Fran
i take it that it sounds great with the fonkens?
Re: F4
It's my understanding the F4 is a truly transparent "power buffer", with a minimally detectable sonic signature of its own - it takes on the flavour of the preceding component(s)
Have you had a chance to hear with other line stages or power amps?
( this should really be an open question to all who own or have heard an F4 - I'll research the thread, but it never hurts to have anecdotal support from a familiar source)
SCD said:
It's my understanding the F4 is a truly transparent "power buffer", with a minimally detectable sonic signature of its own - it takes on the flavour of the preceding component(s)
Have you had a chance to hear with other line stages or power amps?
( this should really be an open question to all who own or have heard an F4 - I'll research the thread, but it never hurts to have anecdotal support from a familiar source)
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