HI Simon, you are talking a lot of sense I like your stance on the situation. Perfect.
The dipoles are the best woofer speakers i have had. Not expensive at all- 200 pounds for the 4 x 8 inchers plus their boxes (car woofer boxes cost £15 each on Ebay just pull the backs off and you have open baffle). These are the only woofers that can keep up with the speed of my stacked quads. They do need at least 150w for deep controlled bass, and of course require a crossover.Behringer do one for £30 and it is excellent for what I need it for. I have now acquired the 12 inch version and again found the ready made boxes on ebay for £20 each.
Alas I have no measurements for them
The dipoles are the best woofer speakers i have had. Not expensive at all- 200 pounds for the 4 x 8 inchers plus their boxes (car woofer boxes cost £15 each on Ebay just pull the backs off and you have open baffle). These are the only woofers that can keep up with the speed of my stacked quads. They do need at least 150w for deep controlled bass, and of course require a crossover.Behringer do one for £30 and it is excellent for what I need it for. I have now acquired the 12 inch version and again found the ready made boxes on ebay for £20 each.
Alas I have no measurements for them
Enjoyment is key, the measurements can follow.
Interesting that you're using an Eminence Beta 12xx. I decided to go with a Beta 8A in my design.
I see you've been wondering about cone treatments. Have you heard of EnABL?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1460272#post1460272
I tried it on my mids (painted on quite crudely) and it works wonders!! You'd better get reading..
I also cut the dustcap off and inserted a DIY phase plug. I may also try this on my Eminence mids. There's a possible ("oilcan") resonance happening in there. Also a phase plug makes the driver appear smaller as far as standing waves are concerned. The only drawback is weakening the cone slightly. Without a lot of tinkering the little Audax mids sound extremely coloured, but mine sound great now.
Simon
Interesting that you're using an Eminence Beta 12xx. I decided to go with a Beta 8A in my design.
I see you've been wondering about cone treatments. Have you heard of EnABL?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1460272#post1460272
I tried it on my mids (painted on quite crudely) and it works wonders!! You'd better get reading..
I also cut the dustcap off and inserted a DIY phase plug. I may also try this on my Eminence mids. There's a possible ("oilcan") resonance happening in there. Also a phase plug makes the driver appear smaller as far as standing waves are concerned. The only drawback is weakening the cone slightly. Without a lot of tinkering the little Audax mids sound extremely coloured, but mine sound great now.
Simon
Simon what are the differences between the ENABL and the small circular pads BAstanis uses on the inner perimeter or the violin lacquer treatments used at two different circumferences (if you have already tried this) in terms of sound enhancement??
Here are MR Bastanis's comments
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bastanis/messages/627.html
Here are MR Bastanis's comments
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bastanis/messages/627.html
The lacquering is not as interesting as EnABL, but could be a complimentary treatment! The lacquer will probably raise the resonant frequency but if applied appropriately might help to create a more favourable characteristic. It should make the cone stiffer. The felt pads are probably a poor substitute for EnABL but doing a similar job. I'm no expert in this area so you'll have to read up on what Bud Purvine (the creator of the EnABL pattern) has to say. Sadly, there's no quick way to find out all about this. There are long threads to trawl though, but it's worth it. Basically EnABL lets you hear the speaker better, with less "noise" accompanying your music. It's measurable in waterfall response plots.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119852/
BudP's "Electron Pool" idea also works but don't tell anyone you're doing such crazy things with speakers
Simon
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100399&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119852/
BudP's "Electron Pool" idea also works but don't tell anyone you're doing such crazy things with speakers
Simon
Simon I am the master of doing crazy things, just look at the problems i have had by reading my threads, you will see the controversy i have caused!!!!!!As a newbie i am obviously an easier target. OOOps sorry i know i registered way back in 2005 but have only been active in more recent months
Luke
Luke
Can we now please let this post continue.
I have received my Beta 12 inchers today the version without the whizzers or coax and i have also bought tiny sticky felt circular pads less than half a cm dia and will attempt a cross between Bastanis's ideas and EnABL. Because if I have read correctly through the multitude of posts the EnABL method may not be quite so successful in 12" woofers.
One post wanted to try elevating the height/increasing the thickness of the acrylic marks perhaps these pads might help achieve this.
ok hold my hands up also noticed email address on profile was when i first joined and is missing a 2 but the email addresses sent directly to moderator were correct
I have received my Beta 12 inchers today the version without the whizzers or coax and i have also bought tiny sticky felt circular pads less than half a cm dia and will attempt a cross between Bastanis's ideas and EnABL. Because if I have read correctly through the multitude of posts the EnABL method may not be quite so successful in 12" woofers.
One post wanted to try elevating the height/increasing the thickness of the acrylic marks perhaps these pads might help achieve this.
ok hold my hands up also noticed email address on profile was when i first joined and is missing a 2 but the email addresses sent directly to moderator were correct
audiojoy said:
That's not something I read, can you elaborate as to why? I thought it could work well on almost anything. Is this to do with difficulty creating the right block size or perhaps depth of paint?
I'm planning to do the 12" woofers of my speakers, as well as the 8" mids.
Do those sticky pads come off again if needed? That might be useful for experimenting, but I expect it will take some time to recognise the changes occurring.
With EnABL (badly done!) and Electron Pools on my midrangers I find there's more detail, less background "clatter", and a sense of natural ease and musicality that absorbs you into the music. This is worth pursuing.
Simon
HI Simon
I am only quoting what i read on the posts not my ideas or findings whatsoever. The person who tried it on their 12" speakers reported little or no difference. Perhaps it might be wise to email the chap who designed it for confirmation.
in the meantime if i find time i will try and read through the posts again to get the actual quotes for you.
Yes these discs are stuck on and taken off very readily indeed with no visible damage and appear to be reusable time after time. These felt pads were suggested by Mr Bastanis.
I am only quoting what i read on the posts not my ideas or findings whatsoever. The person who tried it on their 12" speakers reported little or no difference. Perhaps it might be wise to email the chap who designed it for confirmation.
in the meantime if i find time i will try and read through the posts again to get the actual quotes for you.
Yes these discs are stuck on and taken off very readily indeed with no visible damage and appear to be reusable time after time. These felt pads were suggested by Mr Bastanis.
Attachments
re enable on 12"
I can report that I EnAble'd my 10" drivers and got great results.
I actually did the Mamboni felt triangles on the back, + enable and + the electron pools. Also EnAble around the edge of the baffle. Result was clean, clear with lots of micro detail. Sound stage is wide, deep and 3d. There is no sence that the speakers are involved in the sound. You could be convinced that they are just sitting in the room like a bit of furnature. The sound comes from the sound stage.
I suspect that Enable works best with well resolved systems and would have a good effect on your speakers.
I can report that I EnAble'd my 10" drivers and got great results.
I actually did the Mamboni felt triangles on the back, + enable and + the electron pools. Also EnAble around the edge of the baffle. Result was clean, clear with lots of micro detail. Sound stage is wide, deep and 3d. There is no sence that the speakers are involved in the sound. You could be convinced that they are just sitting in the room like a bit of furnature. The sound comes from the sound stage.
I suspect that Enable works best with well resolved systems and would have a good effect on your speakers.
I have added the second 12" beta eminence driver and as per Mr B have wired them in series.
Some of you will feel this post is incomplete, as it will be subjective only description, no measurements as yet I'm afraid. Also no apologies for my exuberance.....I tell it as i see, and feel it.
I was very taken back by the fact that the addition of this extra driver had improved the sound so dramatically over its predecessor......easier load for Peter Daniels amplifier ? I have yet to try the fouriers in all of this or the shigaclone.
As you would expect the midrange became tonally more fleshed out but the voices became more focussed and of more correct lifelike proportions than i am used to. With this focus and increased tonal colours came a real palpable presence to Frankie's voice. When they say you can almost reach out and touch them.....then that is the audible illusion I felt. His voice was richer and more expressive . Instruments in the background snapped into focus and depth seemed to have been restored. Mono recordings took on a life and presence I rarely hear. Recording techniques and positioning of microphones were all more so apparent in this open baffle assembly. Dynamics jumped up another notch to become more 'startling' to use yet another cliché.
But above all, as I described the sound of the original version, the drive energy timing and rhythm was very good.....well now, it just went up another notch. Frankie's swing and foot tapping tunes were all so more evident with a cohesion between him and the rest of his band now more obvious. I now understand more clearly the meaning of the album title 'everybody digs Bill Evans'. His piano chatted with the bass and drums in such a way now that the pieces seemed to take on more meaning and even the beautiful melodic slow pieces, became exactly that.
The bass seemed so much better also with an obvious body and decay to each note giving them shape. Even being able to hear inner tonal shades allowed me to differentiate between changes in bass notes much more readily. The very fast dipole subwoofers were totally unnoticeable in the whole picture as they were so cohesive with the whole and their speed propelled the tunes along with the rhythm that was intended by the musicians.
This listening session was done without a long break in period for the new eminence driver, and without any alteration to the beyma tweeter. The tweeter still sounded to my ears very well blended in with no really obvious bumps, apart from perhaps a very slight peakiness to the tweeter which i was able to tame with the felt pads last time. The new driver has not had this treatment as yet.
I have not as yet tried EnABLE but will do soon.
I can not be entirely sure but i believe this speaker is superior to my highly modified YAmaha NS1000's and my stacked Quads. I believe the midrange is very close to the Quads now. However the Bass, timing and rhythm are supeior to the quad and the dynamics easily match the Yamaha.
Remember this is the audible experience of my journey in hifi for many years, as an audiophile not an electronics/DIY enthusiast. So my take on things will be different to a lot of the engineers out there.
Finally i must give Peter Daniels more praise for his DIY amplifier as it seems to be limited only by the inferiority of the ancillaries at the moment, and sounds so very valve like, yet neutral as well.
Some of you will feel this post is incomplete, as it will be subjective only description, no measurements as yet I'm afraid. Also no apologies for my exuberance.....I tell it as i see, and feel it.
I was very taken back by the fact that the addition of this extra driver had improved the sound so dramatically over its predecessor......easier load for Peter Daniels amplifier ? I have yet to try the fouriers in all of this or the shigaclone.
As you would expect the midrange became tonally more fleshed out but the voices became more focussed and of more correct lifelike proportions than i am used to. With this focus and increased tonal colours came a real palpable presence to Frankie's voice. When they say you can almost reach out and touch them.....then that is the audible illusion I felt. His voice was richer and more expressive . Instruments in the background snapped into focus and depth seemed to have been restored. Mono recordings took on a life and presence I rarely hear. Recording techniques and positioning of microphones were all more so apparent in this open baffle assembly. Dynamics jumped up another notch to become more 'startling' to use yet another cliché.
But above all, as I described the sound of the original version, the drive energy timing and rhythm was very good.....well now, it just went up another notch. Frankie's swing and foot tapping tunes were all so more evident with a cohesion between him and the rest of his band now more obvious. I now understand more clearly the meaning of the album title 'everybody digs Bill Evans'. His piano chatted with the bass and drums in such a way now that the pieces seemed to take on more meaning and even the beautiful melodic slow pieces, became exactly that.
The bass seemed so much better also with an obvious body and decay to each note giving them shape. Even being able to hear inner tonal shades allowed me to differentiate between changes in bass notes much more readily. The very fast dipole subwoofers were totally unnoticeable in the whole picture as they were so cohesive with the whole and their speed propelled the tunes along with the rhythm that was intended by the musicians.
This listening session was done without a long break in period for the new eminence driver, and without any alteration to the beyma tweeter. The tweeter still sounded to my ears very well blended in with no really obvious bumps, apart from perhaps a very slight peakiness to the tweeter which i was able to tame with the felt pads last time. The new driver has not had this treatment as yet.
I have not as yet tried EnABLE but will do soon.
I can not be entirely sure but i believe this speaker is superior to my highly modified YAmaha NS1000's and my stacked Quads. I believe the midrange is very close to the Quads now. However the Bass, timing and rhythm are supeior to the quad and the dynamics easily match the Yamaha.
Remember this is the audible experience of my journey in hifi for many years, as an audiophile not an electronics/DIY enthusiast. So my take on things will be different to a lot of the engineers out there.
Finally i must give Peter Daniels more praise for his DIY amplifier as it seems to be limited only by the inferiority of the ancillaries at the moment, and sounds so very valve like, yet neutral as well.
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