Thanks to all who have contributed in this thread.
Member Gary B has already suggested a set of components dated 10 March. Roughly 40 more pages of discussion have happened after that.
Being the lazy type, may I ask if the regular contributors if there is any update to the list of changes that Gary B has outlined in the first post?
Member Gary B has already suggested a set of components dated 10 March. Roughly 40 more pages of discussion have happened after that.
Being the lazy type
, may I ask if the regular contributors if there is any update to the list of changes that Gary B has outlined in the first post?Zman,
Eldam is being too modest - most of the 40 pages that you mention are due to his continued experiments and the ongoing dialog that he drove. He summarized his findings in the following post http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-37.html#post3923285
or if you find the PDF hard to read, he wrote a shorter summary here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-47.html#post3979775.
In addition there were some interesting comments about the capacitors at the 50Mhz crystal oscillator that you should read http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-44.html#post3970672.
My personal opinion is that the comments at the start of this thread are still valid and are good recommendations. One can hear changes when tweaking the various capacitors around the chip power supplies but the benefits are subtle.
---Gary
Eldam is being too modest - most of the 40 pages that you mention are due to his continued experiments and the ongoing dialog that he drove. He summarized his findings in the following post http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-37.html#post3923285
or if you find the PDF hard to read, he wrote a shorter summary here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-47.html#post3979775.
In addition there were some interesting comments about the capacitors at the 50Mhz crystal oscillator that you should read http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/246003-modifying-subbu-v3-dac-44.html#post3970672.
My personal opinion is that the comments at the start of this thread are still valid and are good recommendations. One can hear changes when tweaking the various capacitors around the chip power supplies but the benefits are subtle.
---Gary
You should put it on the first page for the lazy guys....
JP should wrote on him first page BOM is good and all the test are just subtils improvement.
Don t listen Gary: he is a gentleman and didn t try the BOM, nore the pages after the first...nore the Subbu.
Your best friend is the Y.... or everything collapses
JP should wrote on him first page BOM is good and all the test are just subtils improvement.
Don t listen Gary: he is a gentleman and didn t try the BOM, nore the pages after the first...nore the Subbu.
Your best friend is the Y.... or everything collapses
Of course the BOM is good, Gary's improvement is good, mine is good, your own could be better...it is a story of set up with your system: mine beats all the BOM by a good margin.... on my system. In my short list above : I anticipate the current problems by giving the choice between 3 caps on C22 !
Don't loose time if you have not very good speakers and amp : BOM is neutral enough, you will not ear such difference without a headphone or very transparent speakers wich allow a lot of détails...
Better first to think first to BOM then JG buffer, then go for a good speaker, DIY : Linkwitz or else....
You have to think first macro, then loose yourself in the détails because you have maid the walk of the good speakers and amps and good source (streamer) before ! Don't go for the improvement if you don't use 75 ohms BNC before your source & the Subbu ! If you have already walked this way, then try the Garrys improvement or mine, but JG buffer first ! If you are not sure of you skill, give up the idea (sorry, with all due of respect because I don't know if you are prophet in the country of soldering iron or like me more an occasional solderer !). And after all we have zero testimonies about a BOM better than an other one ?!
Hope it's more clear with those explanations of reading !
Don't loose time if you have not very good speakers and amp : BOM is neutral enough, you will not ear such difference without a headphone or very transparent speakers wich allow a lot of détails...
Better first to think first to BOM then JG buffer, then go for a good speaker, DIY : Linkwitz or else....
You have to think first macro, then loose yourself in the détails because you have maid the walk of the good speakers and amps and good source (streamer) before ! Don't go for the improvement if you don't use 75 ohms BNC before your source & the Subbu ! If you have already walked this way, then try the Garrys improvement or mine, but JG buffer first ! If you are not sure of you skill, give up the idea (sorry, with all due of respect because I don't know if you are prophet in the country of soldering iron or like me more an occasional solderer !). And after all we have zero testimonies about a BOM better than an other one ?!
Hope it's more clear with those explanations of reading !
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loud plop during sampling rate change
Hi All,
Not sure if this is the right thread to discuss this matter, but I have a problem with loud plops during change of sampling rates.
Some background:
The Subbu 3.0 analog output is directly connected to a power amplifier. Volume is controlled via the connected source which is a Soundblaster touch or a Wandboard with the SOA OS installed. My collection of flac files has a great range of sampling rates:
44.1Khz 16bit, 44.1Khz 24bit, 48Khz 24 bit, 88.2Khz 16 and 24 bit, 96Khz 24bit and 192Khz 24bit.
It is of course possible to up/down sample everything to a fixed sample rate, but i prefer the sound when not resampled.
Is this loud plopping a design feature, something that can be solved on a hardware level (mute pin?) or what else can be done to stop plopping from being audible?
Hi All,
Not sure if this is the right thread to discuss this matter, but I have a problem with loud plops during change of sampling rates.
Some background:
The Subbu 3.0 analog output is directly connected to a power amplifier. Volume is controlled via the connected source which is a Soundblaster touch or a Wandboard with the SOA OS installed. My collection of flac files has a great range of sampling rates:
44.1Khz 16bit, 44.1Khz 24bit, 48Khz 24 bit, 88.2Khz 16 and 24 bit, 96Khz 24bit and 192Khz 24bit.
It is of course possible to up/down sample everything to a fixed sample rate, but i prefer the sound when not resampled.
Is this loud plopping a design feature, something that can be solved on a hardware level (mute pin?) or what else can be done to stop plopping from being audible?
I use the same - V3 direct to power amp - but the feed comes from a desktop PC/JRiver source. I hear nothing similar, but JR usually buffers before each selection plays. Not familiar with SOA OS and its capabilities.
Are the plops absent using those two sources driving a different DAC, or via the respective audio/earphone outs?
Are the plops absent using those two sources driving a different DAC, or via the respective audio/earphone outs?
Hi Bob,
The problem does not occur with an odac, although it is not exactly comparable. The odac is a dac that I connected to the SB via USB and the SUBBU is connected to the SB via spdif.
I've build 2 Subbu dacs and both behave the same, namely loud plops during change of sampling rate. From my observations, loud plops are more likely to occur when switching from 44.1/88.2 to 48/96/192 range as opposed to switching between the 48,96,192 range.
Not sure if bit depth plays a role here, but all of my 48,96,192 flac files are 24bit .
The problem does not occur with an odac, although it is not exactly comparable. The odac is a dac that I connected to the SB via USB and the SUBBU is connected to the SB via spdif.
I've build 2 Subbu dacs and both behave the same, namely loud plops during change of sampling rate. From my observations, loud plops are more likely to occur when switching from 44.1/88.2 to 48/96/192 range as opposed to switching between the 48,96,192 range.
Not sure if bit depth plays a role here, but all of my 48,96,192 flac files are 24bit .
Others with more technical depth may come up with a better answer, but I would still be suspect of the OS/Firmware you are using. If you or a friend have a laptop or desktop with an RCA/SPDIF, there is a free 30 day version of Jriver you can download and use to troubleshoot. Very interested in what you discover.
I have no better skill than Bob but step by step maybe we can find it ?
But if the result is the same with the two Subbu and the opposite with a third different device, I surmise more a problem of conf with the soft streamer. The spidf can't not go upper than 192 Khz. Can you configure the Fs output in the soft ?
What plugs and cables do you use for the spidf from the soundcard? All RCAs
Could try an isolation transformer 1:1. What is the length of your wire ? Not 5 m or something like that ?
But i would bet for a problem of conf or a too big groundloop : so the transformer 1:1 (less than 10 USD) : try from the cheaper (soft) to the more expensive (output transformer) or wait advises from our Guru Emeritus
But if the result is the same with the two Subbu and the opposite with a third different device, I surmise more a problem of conf with the soft streamer. The spidf can't not go upper than 192 Khz. Can you configure the Fs output in the soft ?
What plugs and cables do you use for the spidf from the soundcard? All RCAs
Could try an isolation transformer 1:1. What is the length of your wire ? Not 5 m or something like that ?
But i would bet for a problem of conf or a too big groundloop : so the transformer 1:1 (less than 10 USD) : try from the cheaper (soft) to the more expensive (output transformer) or wait advises from our Guru Emeritus
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Hi Bob and Eldam,
There is indeed more to be investigated, but unfortunatly I will not be able todo so in next 10 days.
I'm using a quality spdif cable from bluejeans with belden 1694A cable and cardas RCA plugs. The device to play music is mostly the Logitech Squeezebox Touch (earlier refered to as SB Touch).
This device can output spdif upto 96Khz. With the wandboard -> Stello U3 (usb 2 spdif converter) -> SUBBU V3.0 i'm able to go upto 192Khz.
@ bmcbob: I can indeed try to hookup the dac to my computer cards spdif out and use jriver or foobar to play music to check if it is a soft streamer problem.
@ Eldam: Ground loops is indeed also an option. How can one determine is this is the case other than putting a pulse transformer in between?
There is indeed more to be investigated, but unfortunatly I will not be able todo so in next 10 days.
I'm using a quality spdif cable from bluejeans with belden 1694A cable and cardas RCA plugs. The device to play music is mostly the Logitech Squeezebox Touch (earlier refered to as SB Touch).
This device can output spdif upto 96Khz. With the wandboard -> Stello U3 (usb 2 spdif converter) -> SUBBU V3.0 i'm able to go upto 192Khz.
@ bmcbob: I can indeed try to hookup the dac to my computer cards spdif out and use jriver or foobar to play music to check if it is a soft streamer problem.
@ Eldam: Ground loops is indeed also an option. How can one determine is this is the case other than putting a pulse transformer in between?
It can't be here the cable here, nore the ground-loop finally because you will have always a problem... not sometimes as you described ... so this is the software conf !
When all will be resolved, swap with the same good Belden cable for true 75 ohms BNC plugs : you will add a far better low end... or as I did (photographs here somewhere above) if too dificult to swap the RCA plug of the SB : soldering directly the Belden on the upper side of the pcb at the feets of the rca plug. Then a BNC plug with PCB plug for the Subbu (ref above from Mouser)!
Good luck, I don't believe the hardwares are involved, nore the USB output from your laptop/or soundcard.
When all will be resolved, swap with the same good Belden cable for true 75 ohms BNC plugs : you will add a far better low end... or as I did (photographs here somewhere above) if too dificult to swap the RCA plug of the SB : soldering directly the Belden on the upper side of the pcb at the feets of the rca plug. Then a BNC plug with PCB plug for the Subbu (ref above from Mouser)!
Good luck, I don't believe the hardwares are involved, nore the USB output from your laptop/or soundcard.
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Some good advice here, no need to add anything to that. But .... I read you use the V3 straight to a power amp and control volume digitally on the source. . May I advise you to use an old fashioned good quality volume control in between and keep volume fixed at the source ? You will make a mistake some day by switching the V3 off and your speakers will be gone to audio nirvana.
It will sound better too. There are quite some nice stepped attenuators on Ebay that are good and affordable.
It will sound better too. There are quite some nice stepped attenuators on Ebay that are good and affordable.
I already have my sb attached to power amp for over 2 years. Never had any problem with the volume control. But putting a volume control between the dac and poweramp is a good idea. I'm partipating in this groupbuy http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/260395-gb-r-2r-volume-controller-4-inputs.html#post4020529
. Not sure it qualifies for a good old fashioned volume control though
I've been to connect the dac to my computer and use jriver as a player. The dac was connected to a headphone amp with volume control.
It confirmed my earlier observation that the plop only happens when switching from the 44.1, 88.2 family of sampling rates to the 48, 96, 192 family or vice versa. The nice thing about jriver is that you can configure it to show bitrate and bithdepth, this way it was easy to determine.
I will see if this behaviour can solved via the software.
. Not sure it qualifies for a good old fashioned volume control though
I've been to connect the dac to my computer and use jriver as a player. The dac was connected to a headphone amp with volume control.
It confirmed my earlier observation that the plop only happens when switching from the 44.1, 88.2 family of sampling rates to the 48, 96, 192 family or vice versa. The nice thing about jriver is that you can configure it to show bitrate and bithdepth, this way it was easy to determine.
I will see if this behaviour can solved via the software.
C32 & 1uf Wima MKS2 with 2.5mm lead spacing : it works : more transparent than the standard Black Gates, more punchy but prefer the mater "sound" and the bass presentation of the Black Gate... but have to say here it could be a result of personal taste here as the MKS2 2.5 mm pitch is very good (remember I tested a dozen of different MKT here and even chemical and mkp...)
Just to say the MKS2 5 mm pitch and 2.5 mm pitch are two different beast on this pcb... as different than a bad and good cap here.... test for the 2.5 mm pitch if you have already the bigger 5 mm pitch : it worths it: you jump in a better world than with the 5 mm i can't listening. Definitly a simple cap can waste or upgrade a good dac... no sorcery here...
Have on the hand a SAL vishay of 3.3 uf but not radial case for C32... and also a 10 uf smt tantal for C17...
Just to say the MKS2 5 mm pitch and 2.5 mm pitch are two different beast on this pcb... as different than a bad and good cap here.... test for the 2.5 mm pitch if you have already the bigger 5 mm pitch : it worths it: you jump in a better world than with the 5 mm i can't listening. Definitly a simple cap can waste or upgrade a good dac... no sorcery here...
Have on the hand a SAL vishay of 3.3 uf but not radial case for C32... and also a 10 uf smt tantal for C17...
Hi,
Asking myself if the Subbu really needs a buffer if yo have less than one meter before your amp/pre and the dac ?
I can't repply yet for the buffer of Joachim Gerhardt as I'm living a nightmare with Mouser... this time the 17.5 K ohms resistor are waited for november ! I have to try with the 10 K ohms of Patrick-EUVL as I have their J-G Buffer board !
Have you a shematic of trhe Calvin's buffer to simplify the reading of this thread please ? Was it maid for the ES chip as J G maid him buffer for it ?
Today we listen the DAC with the 10 uf tantalum in smt 0603 case + 100 nf NPO 0603 case for C17 (XO local decoupling) : pffff I can hear it : better than the bigger 4.7 tantalum. (Thanks Androa76... I'm beginning to believe in the scope measurements... my ears are good tools also... less scientific, but accurate control tool !)
I spend a long time, just because I love this game to choose the best mods according my taste & my sytem, (I don't tell you the day where I beginn my 3 TDA1541 chip as input & output stages are missing , but my sanity risk to collapse as I spend a lot of time cooking the Dacs !).
I can make easy swap for ABX testing as I have two Subbu DAC (I can't resolve to sell one of the two for the moment !)
just try this... this is not only personal taste here :
Changes on Dacboard (MNF PART NUMBER or common desciption) in relation to the genuine BOM (parts GB not involved as different from the BOM):
C4: 0.1 uf COG ( SMD 605 case size)
C7-C20-C19-C5: FCA1210C105M-G2
C17: 10 uF tantalum smt 0603 case + 0.1 uF COG 0603 case : this one nearer of the crystal
C29-C30: FKP2C014701D00HSSD (on genuine BOM) : (2.5%)
C21-C13-C8: Panasonic 25SEP10M
C22: first choice discontinued Sanyo OSCON SP >= 330 uF (mine is 840 uF/4V); second choice : Nichicon PLEOJ471MDO1 (6.3v) (read the pdf page36 for understanding)
C32: standard Black Gate 1 uf ; (BG-N(X) said to be better- not tested myself : I haven't it !); second choice (more transparency but less good tonal balance & less sweeter... but very good too : Wima MKS2 - 1 uF : 2.5 mm pitch only (not the curent 5 mm)
C36: unpopulated
X6: silvered copper wires soldered on RCA X6 output with silvered RCAs plugs (no phoenix connector or other,the less the better: look for direct soldered Rcas; no find yet)
X2 : no wires ; pcb BNC jack : Amphenol 112419 (to be soldered under the pcb to match the polarity)
Changes on PS board :
C2-C4: FCA1210C105M-G2 (choice on the genuine BOM)
C5-C8 : 0.1 Wima MKS2 (choice on the genuine BOM) (try with and without C5)
C9 : 47 uf standard Black-Gate
Off course this BOM swaps the last one (here the changes are the Androa76 - C17 values & the second choice for C32 with the Wima 1 uf MKS2 2.5 mm pitch advised by Jean-Paul & already listed in the first post of Gary but now personnaly tested - The 3.3 uf axial SAL of Vishay is not better and defintly not a swap here for Black Gate -tested in C32 position also)
Say me after if a buffer is better ? i can not answer yet... I'm a snail and don't care in my hobby about time efficienty !
cheers
Asking myself if the Subbu really needs a buffer if yo have less than one meter before your amp/pre and the dac ?
I can't repply yet for the buffer of Joachim Gerhardt as I'm living a nightmare with Mouser... this time the 17.5 K ohms resistor are waited for november ! I have to try with the 10 K ohms of Patrick-EUVL as I have their J-G Buffer board !
Have you a shematic of trhe Calvin's buffer to simplify the reading of this thread please ? Was it maid for the ES chip as J G maid him buffer for it ?
Today we listen the DAC with the 10 uf tantalum in smt 0603 case + 100 nf NPO 0603 case for C17 (XO local decoupling) : pffff I can hear it : better than the bigger 4.7 tantalum. (Thanks Androa76... I'm beginning to believe in the scope measurements... my ears are good tools also... less scientific, but accurate control tool !)
I spend a long time, just because I love this game to choose the best mods according my taste & my sytem, (I don't tell you the day where I beginn my 3 TDA1541 chip as input & output stages are missing , but my sanity risk to collapse as I spend a lot of time cooking the Dacs !).
I can make easy swap for ABX testing as I have two Subbu DAC
(I can't resolve to sell one of the two for the moment !)just try this... this is not only personal taste here :
Changes on Dacboard (MNF PART NUMBER or common desciption) in relation to the genuine BOM (parts GB not involved as different from the BOM):
C4: 0.1 uf COG ( SMD 605 case size)
C7-C20-C19-C5: FCA1210C105M-G2
C17: 10 uF tantalum smt 0603 case + 0.1 uF COG 0603 case : this one nearer of the crystal
C29-C30: FKP2C014701D00HSSD (on genuine BOM) : (2.5%)
C21-C13-C8: Panasonic 25SEP10M
C22: first choice discontinued Sanyo OSCON SP >= 330 uF (mine is 840 uF/4V); second choice : Nichicon PLEOJ471MDO1 (6.3v) (read the pdf page36 for understanding)
C32: standard Black Gate 1 uf ; (BG-N(X) said to be better- not tested myself : I haven't it !); second choice (more transparency but less good tonal balance & less sweeter... but very good too : Wima MKS2 - 1 uF : 2.5 mm pitch only (not the curent 5 mm)
C36: unpopulated
X6: silvered copper wires soldered on RCA X6 output with silvered RCAs plugs (no phoenix connector or other,the less the better: look for direct soldered Rcas; no find yet)
X2 : no wires ; pcb BNC jack : Amphenol 112419 (to be soldered under the pcb to match the polarity)
Changes on PS board :
C2-C4: FCA1210C105M-G2 (choice on the genuine BOM)
C5-C8 : 0.1 Wima MKS2 (choice on the genuine BOM) (try with and without C5)
C9 : 47 uf standard Black-Gate
Off course this BOM swaps the last one (here the changes are the Androa76 - C17 values & the second choice for C32 with the Wima 1 uf MKS2 2.5 mm pitch advised by Jean-Paul & already listed in the first post of Gary but now personnaly tested - The 3.3 uf axial SAL of Vishay is not better and defintly not a swap here for Black Gate -tested in C32 position also)
Say me after if a buffer is better ?
i can not answer yet... I'm a snail and don't care in my hobby about time efficienty !cheers
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Eldam - finally you get soft and try my version.
I sold my dac, so no experimenting from my side anymore...
I have another usb 9023 dac. After heavy modifying it sound almost same as subbu. I used all hints from subbu and get it there, so nothing strange to have similar sound.
Maybe one hint to try. Before 9023 AVCC mic regulator C19 for my ears best combination is 10uf x7r and 0,1uf x7r ceramics. Brilliant highs neutrall midrange and powerfull bass. I have tried 1uf ceramics, 1uf smr ala plastic cornell is the second best ( pronounced midrange, a little bit heavy highs, and lack of sub bas) , 22uf polymer tantalum +0,1uf x7r, 47uf SP + 0,1uf x7r
I have made comparison on hi-end system open baffle speakers Soulsonic, AA referenz preamp, MONO II....and my heavy modified linux player, who easily beat win 7- jriver, foobar.... More detailed, relaxed, fluid, analogue sounded... almost no zzz or ssss sibilance in comparison to windows player.
I do comparison subbu v3 with heavily modified Minimax es9018 ... (my favourite dac... i am also interested in R2R) and winner was Minimax. Low end is more powerfull, more dynamics, vocal have more energy, but suprise...resolution is almost identicall. You have immediately feeling that es9023 is really smaller brother from es9018.
But must be fair and realistic.... SUBBU dac v3 is really really good DAC for that price.
I sold my dac, so no experimenting from my side anymore...
I have another usb 9023 dac. After heavy modifying it sound almost same as subbu. I used all hints from subbu and get it there, so nothing strange to have similar sound.
Maybe one hint to try. Before 9023 AVCC mic regulator C19 for my ears best combination is 10uf x7r and 0,1uf x7r ceramics. Brilliant highs neutrall midrange and powerfull bass. I have tried 1uf ceramics, 1uf smr ala plastic cornell is the second best ( pronounced midrange, a little bit heavy highs, and lack of sub bas) , 22uf polymer tantalum +0,1uf x7r, 47uf SP + 0,1uf x7r
I have made comparison on hi-end system open baffle speakers Soulsonic, AA referenz preamp, MONO II....and my heavy modified linux player, who easily beat win 7- jriver, foobar.... More detailed, relaxed, fluid, analogue sounded... almost no zzz or ssss sibilance in comparison to windows player.
I do comparison subbu v3 with heavily modified Minimax es9018 ... (my favourite dac... i am also interested in R2R) and winner was Minimax. Low end is more powerfull, more dynamics, vocal have more energy, but suprise...resolution is almost identicall. You have immediately feeling that es9023 is really smaller brother from es9018.
But must be fair and realistic.... SUBBU dac v3 is really really good DAC for that price.
Hi Eldam,
The Calvin buffer was created for the paradise phono stage and is discussed here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/226099-preamp-buffers-simple-idea.html
more about this buffer can be found here (in german)...
Hybrid Buffer - calvins-audio-pages
The buffer has been suggested as buffer for a preamp or as buffer at the input stage of a power amp. So it might be usefull as a buffer for the subbu dac as well.
It is Just a thought. I'm really out of my depth here. My technical skills are just at the level that i proudly created 2 working subbu v3 dacs. But i'm always thinking what else can be done to make this good sounding dac sound even better.
The improvements/alterations as suggested by garryb and you will also be tested, but i'm waiting until i have a big enough order for mouser. So this will likely be somewhere in november/december.
The Calvin buffer was created for the paradise phono stage and is discussed here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/226099-preamp-buffers-simple-idea.html
more about this buffer can be found here (in german)...
Hybrid Buffer - calvins-audio-pages
The buffer has been suggested as buffer for a preamp or as buffer at the input stage of a power amp. So it might be usefull as a buffer for the subbu dac as well.
It is Just a thought. I'm really out of my depth here. My technical skills are just at the level that i proudly created 2 working subbu v3 dacs
. But i'm always thinking what else can be done to make this good sounding dac sound even better.The improvements/alterations as suggested by garryb and you will also be tested, but i'm waiting until i have a big enough order for mouser. So this will likely be somewhere in november/december.