Maybe, maybe not. So many other things affect the midrange. In theory you'll get some ripple from a TL or ML-TL, but the damping mostly takes care of that and there are other considerations.
For most pristine mids, i'd guess a cabinet (aperiodic TL) similar to a B&W 801 series mid enclosure would be best
Me, i'd just build a Mar-Ken10. I'm very happy with mine.
dave
For most pristine mids, i'd guess a cabinet (aperiodic TL) similar to a B&W 801 series mid enclosure would be best
Me, i'd just build a Mar-Ken10. I'm very happy with mine.
dave
Jim,
I'm wondering whether some teaking to the design for the new Alpair10.2?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/177064-alpair-10-gen-2-introduction.html
dave
I'm wondering whether some teaking to the design for the new Alpair10.2?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/177064-alpair-10-gen-2-introduction.html
dave
I would be also interested in 10.2 version of this enclosure. I have been listening to this MLTL design for alpair10, modified the dimensions according to my earlier post in this thread. I have to say, remarkable sound after I resolved issues with the downfiring port and got correct amount of stuffing for the upper part.
I like this speaker/driver a lot. Not as harsh sounding compared to for example visaton B200 build I've heard briefly. With this enclosure I get deep but punchy bass, suiting very well for my living room, which is a bit challenging regarding modes etc. Very balanced speaker. No matter if I play it loud or not, it still sounds the same. i.e does not require loud volumes to open up like many other insensitive drivers/speakers.
Currently I am running the with my Naim Nait5i-2 and I think the amp will be the bottleneck if there is one. Just a fantastic driver and great enclosure design.
I like this speaker/driver a lot. Not as harsh sounding compared to for example visaton B200 build I've heard briefly. With this enclosure I get deep but punchy bass, suiting very well for my living room, which is a bit challenging regarding modes etc. Very balanced speaker. No matter if I play it loud or not, it still sounds the same. i.e does not require loud volumes to open up like many other insensitive drivers/speakers.
Currently I am running the with my Naim Nait5i-2 and I think the amp will be the bottleneck if there is one. Just a fantastic driver and great enclosure design.
Some Updates for the Alpair 10 and 10.2 MLTL
Recently, I simulated the Mark Audio 10.2 driver in the A10 MLTL enclosure. I used the same dimensions as for the original MLTL design to see if the old enclosure could yield adequate performance with the new driver. I used Martin King's spreadsheets which essentially predict the bass/mid-bass performance of the enclosure and driver. The results of the modeling yielded effectively the same bass/mid-bass performance with either driver in the enclosure. If you overlay the simulation plots from each driver, they match within the width of the plotted lines.
With those results, I replaced the A10 drivers in my MLTL boxes with new A10.2 drivers (thanks to Mark Fenlon for his assistance with the new drivers). After a break-in period for the 10.2 units I must say that I'm more than thrilled with the sound of the MLTL with the new drivers. The A10.2 units are a significant upgrade to the older A10 model. So for those of you who are interested in an upgrade, I suggest that you try the new drivers in your existing enclosures. If you are building new speakers then the Alpair 10.2 units are your ticket to improved performance.
From my listening (and within this enclosure) I can say that the primary discernable differences between the old A10 and the new A10.2 drivers are clearly Mark's improvements in the midrange and treble portion of the frequency band. The new drivers certainly sound better across these portions of the frequency band. I'm listening to my A10.2's now and I'm impressed with their balance across the band. Mark has a winner with these new drivers.
Over the past couple of years I've had some questions raised about stuffing, port tubes, and room integration of my Alpair 10/10.2 MLTL design. Let me address some of those issues.
Ports: My suggested port length is 4 to 5 inches long. You will tune a few Hertz lower with a 5 inches port tube length but 4 inches will be just fine. I suggest that you try 5 inches first and listen for a while. I find that if you have a small room you may have room modes which will support peaks in the sound in the lower bass area. If room modes are an issue, then a shorter port length will tune the speaker higher and lessen any objectional noises.
Placement: Of course, placement of the speaker within the room can vary your listening satisfaction as well. I listen about 8-10 feet away from my speakers with the two speakers about 8 feet apart. Typically, the speakers are toed-in toward the listening position by 15 to 20 degrees vs. parallel to the wall behind the speakers. I tend to like placing my speakers away from the walls a few feet but you can get more bass reinforcement by moving the speakers closer to the walls or into corners. My recommendation is to just use the room boundaries only as necessary to alleviate shortcomings in the bass area.
Stuffing: The nominal stuffing density is 0.5 pound per cubic foot. In my prototypes I used Acousta Stuf(Trademark) damping fiber but similar material will suffice. The stuffing fills the volume from a few inches below the driver to the top of the box. I place a coarse metal grid or screen on top of the internal brace (located 2-3 inches below the bottom of the driver) to prevent the stuffing from falling below the brace. The material is loosely teased as I fill the cavity. No stuffing is placed below the internal brace. If you don't have a brace at that location in your enclosure, you can wedge some wire griding to fashion a stop for the stuffing at that position in the box.
If your bass sounds muddy, then you can vary the density of the stuffing. You can vary the stuffing by using less material and teasing it more for looser (lighter) stuffing. My listening room is very live--it has wood floors and has very little damping within it. Hence, my speakers tend to be relatively well damped (higher density of stuffing) vs. a case where you might have a dead room--lots of damping surfaces such as carpeting and curtains. Decreasing the stuffing density may match your taste if you have different room damping than mine.
Jim
Recently, I simulated the Mark Audio 10.2 driver in the A10 MLTL enclosure. I used the same dimensions as for the original MLTL design to see if the old enclosure could yield adequate performance with the new driver. I used Martin King's spreadsheets which essentially predict the bass/mid-bass performance of the enclosure and driver. The results of the modeling yielded effectively the same bass/mid-bass performance with either driver in the enclosure. If you overlay the simulation plots from each driver, they match within the width of the plotted lines.
With those results, I replaced the A10 drivers in my MLTL boxes with new A10.2 drivers (thanks to Mark Fenlon for his assistance with the new drivers). After a break-in period for the 10.2 units I must say that I'm more than thrilled with the sound of the MLTL with the new drivers. The A10.2 units are a significant upgrade to the older A10 model. So for those of you who are interested in an upgrade, I suggest that you try the new drivers in your existing enclosures. If you are building new speakers then the Alpair 10.2 units are your ticket to improved performance.
From my listening (and within this enclosure) I can say that the primary discernable differences between the old A10 and the new A10.2 drivers are clearly Mark's improvements in the midrange and treble portion of the frequency band. The new drivers certainly sound better across these portions of the frequency band. I'm listening to my A10.2's now and I'm impressed with their balance across the band. Mark has a winner with these new drivers.
Over the past couple of years I've had some questions raised about stuffing, port tubes, and room integration of my Alpair 10/10.2 MLTL design. Let me address some of those issues.
Ports: My suggested port length is 4 to 5 inches long. You will tune a few Hertz lower with a 5 inches port tube length but 4 inches will be just fine. I suggest that you try 5 inches first and listen for a while. I find that if you have a small room you may have room modes which will support peaks in the sound in the lower bass area. If room modes are an issue, then a shorter port length will tune the speaker higher and lessen any objectional noises.
Placement: Of course, placement of the speaker within the room can vary your listening satisfaction as well. I listen about 8-10 feet away from my speakers with the two speakers about 8 feet apart. Typically, the speakers are toed-in toward the listening position by 15 to 20 degrees vs. parallel to the wall behind the speakers. I tend to like placing my speakers away from the walls a few feet but you can get more bass reinforcement by moving the speakers closer to the walls or into corners. My recommendation is to just use the room boundaries only as necessary to alleviate shortcomings in the bass area.
Stuffing: The nominal stuffing density is 0.5 pound per cubic foot. In my prototypes I used Acousta Stuf(Trademark) damping fiber but similar material will suffice. The stuffing fills the volume from a few inches below the driver to the top of the box. I place a coarse metal grid or screen on top of the internal brace (located 2-3 inches below the bottom of the driver) to prevent the stuffing from falling below the brace. The material is loosely teased as I fill the cavity. No stuffing is placed below the internal brace. If you don't have a brace at that location in your enclosure, you can wedge some wire griding to fashion a stop for the stuffing at that position in the box.
If your bass sounds muddy, then you can vary the density of the stuffing. You can vary the stuffing by using less material and teasing it more for looser (lighter) stuffing. My listening room is very live--it has wood floors and has very little damping within it. Hence, my speakers tend to be relatively well damped (higher density of stuffing) vs. a case where you might have a dead room--lots of damping surfaces such as carpeting and curtains. Decreasing the stuffing density may match your taste if you have different room damping than mine.
Jim
Last edited:
Jim,
Thanks for your impressions of the Alpair 10.2, I suppose you did not made any measurements of your MLTL 10.2 combo. If I remember correctly the 10.2 has a rising response above 5Khz around 7-8dB(on axis). I suppose you are not perturbed by this rising response, you must have them toed the speakers inwards(how much?).
I remember your 2-way speakers of Jordan 92 and Aurum Cantus ribbon. In contrast to your combo, would this combo, Alpair 10.2 and Raal (obviously not in the same box or x-over), work well together and give me the performance better or equal to what you get from Jordan and Aurum Cantus. Any thoughts/comments.
Thanks for your impressions of the Alpair 10.2, I suppose you did not made any measurements of your MLTL 10.2 combo. If I remember correctly the 10.2 has a rising response above 5Khz around 7-8dB(on axis). I suppose you are not perturbed by this rising response, you must have them toed the speakers inwards(how much?).
I remember your 2-way speakers of Jordan 92 and Aurum Cantus ribbon. In contrast to your combo, would this combo, Alpair 10.2 and Raal (obviously not in the same box or x-over), work well together and give me the performance better or equal to what you get from Jordan and Aurum Cantus. Any thoughts/comments.
ttan98,
I toe-in my speakers about 15-20 degrees.
As I'm through the break-in period (I have over 250 hours on my speakers), I'll try to measure them in the next few days. I will be able to measure the upper end even though my room size will limit me on the low end of the band.
I have never used any of the Raal ribbons but those who have report excellent results. Depending on the choice of Raal ribbon, it would likely fit within the enclosure as the Alpair driver is placed about two thirds of the overall box height as you can see in message #16 in this thread.
Jim
I toe-in my speakers about 15-20 degrees.
As I'm through the break-in period (I have over 250 hours on my speakers), I'll try to measure them in the next few days. I will be able to measure the upper end even though my room size will limit me on the low end of the band.
I have never used any of the Raal ribbons but those who have report excellent results. Depending on the choice of Raal ribbon, it would likely fit within the enclosure as the Alpair driver is placed about two thirds of the overall box height as you can see in message #16 in this thread.
Jim
Over-priced or what?
Hi all!
Seems like everyone has a nice time w/building different versions of the last Alp10(2). I stumbled upon a internett-site with a relatively high-priced version of the 1 Generation. Wonder if our buildings(in many guises) is in the league as this one:
High end Full Range
It must be a good build - to support the Alp10.1!
Don`t you think ours is equal or even better?
Ol
Hi all!
Seems like everyone has a nice time w/building different versions of the last Alp10(2). I stumbled upon a internett-site with a relatively high-priced version of the 1 Generation. Wonder if our buildings(in many guises) is in the league as this one:
High end Full Range
It must be a good build - to support the Alp10.1!
Don`t you think ours is equal or even better?
Ol
Hi all!
Seems like everyone has a nice time w/building different versions of the last Alp10(2). I stumbled upon a internett-site with a relatively high-priced version of the 1 Generation. Wonder if our buildings(in many guises) is in the league as this one:
High end Full Range
It must be a good build - to support the Alp10.1!
Don`t you think ours is equal or even better?
Ol
Probably not overpriced for what you get -- a rather difficult built with a fine piano finish. Even rather straight forward rectangular box can be expensive to build commercially. Case in point: I am just starting to sell an Alpair 7 speaker. I have ~$440 invested in MATERIALS (shipping within North America included as well as Paypal charges). I expect to get paid for my time. Without looking, take a guess what I need to charge.
Bob
was thinking...
Hi Bob!
No - sorry for that - was thinking bout the sound - mostly! If mine had a finish like this one AND a relatively long chain of engineering/tryin to get it right - I would been think a price of 2-3000 Euro is maybe just about right. Depends on finish and the rest!
So - if someone can make a living of constructing nice speakers that sound good - maybe I will buy it? But for now I`m more than pleased with getting my own speakers relatively nice looking(not as good as these surely are)
Best
Ol
Hi Bob!
No - sorry for that - was thinking bout the sound - mostly! If mine had a finish like this one AND a relatively long chain of engineering/tryin to get it right - I would been think a price of 2-3000 Euro is maybe just about right. Depends on finish and the rest!
So - if someone can make a living of constructing nice speakers that sound good - maybe I will buy it? But for now I`m more than pleased with getting my own speakers relatively nice looking(not as good as these surely are)
Best
Ol
Except for the fact that the A10.2 is quite a bit better driver, the realities of commercial production put the price of that within reason.
Unless they bought a whole lot of 1st gen A10 they will have had to adapt the box for A10.2.
Bob, your box, given cost of materials, would need to sell for $1-1.2k. We sell dMar-Ken7 finished for $1-1.5k depending on finish & materials and that is probably too little.
dave
Unless they bought a whole lot of 1st gen A10 they will have had to adapt the box for A10.2.
Bob, your box, given cost of materials, would need to sell for $1-1.2k. We sell dMar-Ken7 finished for $1-1.5k depending on finish & materials and that is probably too little.
dave
too little...
Hi Dave.
Agree with you - that is too little for such an outstanding performer! I paid around 7000, norwegian kroner for my old Infinty Delta 15 years ago(that is ca 1000dollar). And the Delta were fairly good at that time. But the Alp10.2 is in a completely different league.
So - in comparision with the Achilles - you charge far too low - both you and Bob!
And the Alp10.2 in the right box imagines nearly as good as my friends big MartinLogan - AND with a better touch(think it is spelled SPL). So now I am sitting and listening on my fairly good HK980 - and Jeffrey Foucalt(Cold Sattelite) is playing his acoustic guitar here in my living room.
Tnx Dave for your inspiration with the FonkenTuning and Mark for the very revealing drivers. It will not be my last building!!!
Best to all!
Ol
Hi Dave.
Agree with you - that is too little for such an outstanding performer! I paid around 7000, norwegian kroner for my old Infinty Delta 15 years ago(that is ca 1000dollar). And the Delta were fairly good at that time. But the Alp10.2 is in a completely different league.
So - in comparision with the Achilles - you charge far too low - both you and Bob!
And the Alp10.2 in the right box imagines nearly as good as my friends big MartinLogan - AND with a better touch(think it is spelled SPL). So now I am sitting and listening on my fairly good HK980 - and Jeffrey Foucalt(Cold Sattelite) is playing his acoustic guitar here in my living room.
Tnx Dave for your inspiration with the FonkenTuning and Mark for the very revealing drivers. It will not be my last building!!!
Best to all!
Ol
On the Mark Audio website of AudioDIY my new friend Scott has just completed a MA Alpair 10.2 MLTL per my plans. Congratulations to him on his new speakers which are beautiful!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/187020-come-join-me-my-shop-griffin-build.html
Jim
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/187020-come-join-me-my-shop-griffin-build.html
Jim
Hello Jim: i have been building speakers with your plans, using the alpair 10.2, and i must say; its amazing
I had a few troubles on my way, most of them initiated by me, to hastey...lol
There is ONE mistake i made, and i wonder if irs critical, my gut feeling says it is.
My bassport is aprox 30mm to high, is that gonna affect the sound in a way i dont like??
If it is, ill close it, get some new veneer on it, and make a new bassreflex opening acording to your plans.
Anyway, i think they have aprox. 120 hours of break in, so today i sad down and listened to some voices.
Now, i must say, they sound a bit like sound in a tube.
Because i didnt add any stuffing yet, i started to fill up the area above the speaker with sonofil, and sat down.
It whas a huge improvement
Now. this is what i like about this set of alpairs in your enclosure:
*imaging...wooohooo
*soundstage...woooohoo
* low sound level performence...woooohooo
Well, compared to my B&W DM320 i must say the jim griffin design is a winner
Wy??
More controlled and defined low end.
No need to crank up the volume to get a good sound.
No irritating high end, that, on the B&W, at high volume, start to annoy even me gurlfriend.
To make a long story short: LOVE THEM.
So, the only thing bothering me, is the location of the bassport.
Can u help me out here?
It would be apreciated a lot.
Btw, the other day i had a friend over, he had some miles davis, sad down and he was amazed about the sound, so, he asked me if i could build him a pair also.
I am already looking forward to the build
Jim, hope to hear from u, other guys: thanks for sharing so much info and tips, its realy amazing that this forum has such a high level of helping out one another.
Btw, if a start a new build, ill open a new topic with pictures and stuff
I had a few troubles on my way, most of them initiated by me, to hastey...lol
There is ONE mistake i made, and i wonder if irs critical, my gut feeling says it is.
My bassport is aprox 30mm to high, is that gonna affect the sound in a way i dont like??
If it is, ill close it, get some new veneer on it, and make a new bassreflex opening acording to your plans.
Anyway, i think they have aprox. 120 hours of break in, so today i sad down and listened to some voices.
Now, i must say, they sound a bit like sound in a tube.
Because i didnt add any stuffing yet, i started to fill up the area above the speaker with sonofil, and sat down.
It whas a huge improvement
Now. this is what i like about this set of alpairs in your enclosure:
*imaging...wooohooo
*soundstage...woooohoo
* low sound level performence...woooohooo
Well, compared to my B&W DM320 i must say the jim griffin design is a winner
Wy??
More controlled and defined low end.
No need to crank up the volume to get a good sound.
No irritating high end, that, on the B&W, at high volume, start to annoy even me gurlfriend.
To make a long story short: LOVE THEM.
So, the only thing bothering me, is the location of the bassport.
Can u help me out here?
It would be apreciated a lot.
Btw, the other day i had a friend over, he had some miles davis, sad down and he was amazed about the sound, so, he asked me if i could build him a pair also.
I am already looking forward to the build
Jim, hope to hear from u, other guys: thanks for sharing so much info and tips, its realy amazing that this forum has such a high level of helping out one another.
Btw, if a start a new build, ill open a new topic with pictures and stuff
Wupsie,
I am pleased to hear that you like your speakers. Yes, the stuffing does make a difference and as I have said before you can adjust the amount to suit your taste and the acoustics of your room.
Your location error in placement of the port tube will effectively shorten the length of the line. This change will increase the 3 dB down level a few Hz on the low end of the band. But I wouldn't worry about too much if you are satisfied with their performance otherwise. If the pair that you build for your friend sound significantly better than your original pair, you might think about alteration of your set.
Thanks again for your positive comments and enjoy your new speakers.
Jim
I am pleased to hear that you like your speakers. Yes, the stuffing does make a difference and as I have said before you can adjust the amount to suit your taste and the acoustics of your room.
Your location error in placement of the port tube will effectively shorten the length of the line. This change will increase the 3 dB down level a few Hz on the low end of the band. But I wouldn't worry about too much if you are satisfied with their performance otherwise. If the pair that you build for your friend sound significantly better than your original pair, you might think about alteration of your set.
Thanks again for your positive comments and enjoy your new speakers.
Jim
Jim, thanks for the reply, apreciate it
i changed the stuffing, from just under the chassis, to the top of the enclosure, sounds promissing.
Been listening to acoustic guitars. kind of blue ( miles davis) and some nirvana
Then i played some metal...wow....thats a carpet of sound, wooohoo
Well ofcourse on a moderate sound level, dont want nirvana to burn the alpairs
Now, i have noticed that the important variable on waf is a: colour, b: with, c: sound
So..there is a possibility here to make another enclosure, just for kicks.
Got a golden tip for me??
In time, speakers will be hooked up to a 300B tube amp
i changed the stuffing, from just under the chassis, to the top of the enclosure, sounds promissing.
Been listening to acoustic guitars. kind of blue ( miles davis) and some nirvana
Then i played some metal...wow....thats a carpet of sound, wooohoo
Well ofcourse on a moderate sound level, dont want nirvana to burn the alpairs
Now, i have noticed that the important variable on waf is a: colour, b: with, c: sound
So..there is a possibility here to make another enclosure, just for kicks.
Got a golden tip for me??
In time, speakers will be hooked up to a 300B tube amp
In time, speakers will be hooked up to a 300B tube amp>>>
I just put a pair of the original Alpair 10s into a 5 sided MLTL which is about 21 litres. Sound very nice indeed - much better than a JX92 I had in there - more mellow, much better bass and altogether more musical. The JX92 had quite an upper mid/treble emphasis which was tiring.
Anyway, my 300b SET overloads quite audibly. Anyone driving these with a 300b SET? My operating point is quite cool - about 18 to 20 watts dissipation on the 300b into the small O-netics OPTs. Nice sound but needs more power, like 30-35 watts dissipation. So wondering what hotter operating points can achieve.
My fallback option is a PP 2a3 amp which I'm just putting together. I suppose I could go up to a PP300b amp but hope that won't be necessary.
Can anyone comment on driving the Alpair 10 with tube amps, and particularly SETs?
Andy
I just put a pair of the original Alpair 10s into a 5 sided MLTL which is about 21 litres. Sound very nice indeed - much better than a JX92 I had in there - more mellow, much better bass and altogether more musical. The JX92 had quite an upper mid/treble emphasis which was tiring.
Anyway, my 300b SET overloads quite audibly. Anyone driving these with a 300b SET? My operating point is quite cool - about 18 to 20 watts dissipation on the 300b into the small O-netics OPTs. Nice sound but needs more power, like 30-35 watts dissipation. So wondering what hotter operating points can achieve.
My fallback option is a PP 2a3 amp which I'm just putting together. I suppose I could go up to a PP300b amp but hope that won't be necessary.
Can anyone comment on driving the Alpair 10 with tube amps, and particularly SETs?
Andy
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.