Tell us more
About the mat.
I'm open minded to most things, it's just so few I've tried actually worked when it comes to the LP12. What is the non-slip mat you mentioned?
Another one that does work, especially is using an Ittok, is to remove the arm-rest and manufacture a plinth-mounted one.
Andy
About the mat.
I'm open minded to most things, it's just so few I've tried actually worked when it comes to the LP12. What is the non-slip mat you mentioned?
Another one that does work, especially is using an Ittok, is to remove the arm-rest and manufacture a plinth-mounted one.
Andy
I lent a Donut to Steve; he went out and bought 'router mat' to make
one. His is a top spec Linn (Cirkus, Lingo, Ekos) with active Naim SBLs.
He still uses the donut. His ringmat is in the cupboard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Still not clear to me what the Donut is. Can you please explain in very clear terms.
There is no such thing as gospel in hifi. The Ringmat does sound ok on the Linn in place of the felt one.
One very good reason to chuck the felt is because it is prone to static and collects lots of dust!
There are other ways of damping the Linn platter such as spraying underside and rim with damping layer.
one. His is a top spec Linn (Cirkus, Lingo, Ekos) with active Naim SBLs.
He still uses the donut. His ringmat is in the cupboard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Still not clear to me what the Donut is. Can you please explain in very clear terms.
There is no such thing as gospel in hifi. The Ringmat does sound ok on the Linn in place of the felt one.
One very good reason to chuck the felt is because it is prone to static and collects lots of dust!
There are other ways of damping the Linn platter such as spraying underside and rim with damping layer.
ALW said:I respectfully suggest that anyone who thinks a mat other than the Linn one sounds better, would do better to just buy a different turtable, since the LP12 is obviously not for you.
-----------------------------------------------------------'
This seems to me out of order, with the assumption that you know better. Not open minded.
fmac,
The LP12 does things that few other turntables do succesfully. The Sondek can dig deeper into the MUSIC than most decks ever can. It does this at the expence of some things that other manufactures and listeners value, but Linn consider irrelevant to the enjoyment of the recorded performance.
The problem comes when people try to turn the LP12 into something it isnt, and was never meant to be. Most of these modifications succede at the expense of what the LP12 does best.
Paul.
The LP12 does things that few other turntables do succesfully. The Sondek can dig deeper into the MUSIC than most decks ever can. It does this at the expence of some things that other manufactures and listeners value, but Linn consider irrelevant to the enjoyment of the recorded performance.
The problem comes when people try to turn the LP12 into something it isnt, and was never meant to be. Most of these modifications succede at the expense of what the LP12 does best.
Paul.
Simply, the LP12 is the only front end i've owned that lets me forget about HiFi. I've heard alot of HiFi in the past, and i've owned (and wasted money on) alot of equipment in the past. You may feel the need for 8 turntables, I dont.
The LP12 was never to evryones taste, and has undoubtedly had its day considering its new price. Newer turntables have pushed it down the pecking order, Well Tempered being able to match it for timing and rhythm while being far less coloured and possesing a far mor extended bass.
Most atempts at redressing the 12's failings simply turn it into just another turntable. Something to put in a collection and dust of occasionaly when bored.
Paul.
Paul Dimaline said:
Simply, the LP12 is the only front end i've owned that lets me forget about HiFi. I've heard alot of HiFi in the past, and i've owned (and wasted money on) alot of equipment in the past. You may feel the need for 8 turntables, I dont.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you should post stating your view and not question the desire of others to improve/experiment with the LP12.
Donut/None Felt Mat
http://www.extremephono.com and look for Mat.
Or as I said above, visit the DIY/home improvement store and look for
non slip perforated rubber mat, sold as non slip shelf liner, or as
router mat. Then cut yourself a donut shape, matching the record
surface (ie the cutout is the same size as the record label).
It really makes things stop and start quickly, which removes some
smearing of the sound. This is a very marked effect; try the Donut
on a Linn and you'll know what I mean. As to whether you like what
it does in total - OK, that's personal preference, please use whatever
you like best and feel free to tell me; I have no problem this and I'm
interested.
Just please don't tell me what I ought to like, or what a Linn ought
to sound like!
I find the Donut works very well with the Cetech, as they do different
things and the benefits overlap. Cetech is 'micro' and tonality;
Donut is timing and 'macro' effects.
Last night I had an SME 20 in my system alongside my Linn, both
with Lyra Evolve carts. The SME was clearly usefully better but the
Linn was by no means outclassed. SME had better macro dynamics, but
there was not a lot in it for low level info and tonality. Some said
the Linn gave a more balanced, 'together' kind of sound - though I
preferred the SME on all counts. But - I would not say it was loser
and winner; more like two winners, just the degree of winning.
Like, Linn did pretty well everything right; the SME did things a bit
more right.
Without the Cetech and Donut it would have been murdered.
All IMHO ...
http://www.extremephono.com and look for Mat.
Or as I said above, visit the DIY/home improvement store and look for
non slip perforated rubber mat, sold as non slip shelf liner, or as
router mat. Then cut yourself a donut shape, matching the record
surface (ie the cutout is the same size as the record label).
It really makes things stop and start quickly, which removes some
smearing of the sound. This is a very marked effect; try the Donut
on a Linn and you'll know what I mean. As to whether you like what
it does in total - OK, that's personal preference, please use whatever
you like best and feel free to tell me; I have no problem this and I'm
interested.
Just please don't tell me what I ought to like, or what a Linn ought
to sound like!
I find the Donut works very well with the Cetech, as they do different
things and the benefits overlap. Cetech is 'micro' and tonality;
Donut is timing and 'macro' effects.
Last night I had an SME 20 in my system alongside my Linn, both
with Lyra Evolve carts. The SME was clearly usefully better but the
Linn was by no means outclassed. SME had better macro dynamics, but
there was not a lot in it for low level info and tonality. Some said
the Linn gave a more balanced, 'together' kind of sound - though I
preferred the SME on all counts. But - I would not say it was loser
and winner; more like two winners, just the degree of winning.
Like, Linn did pretty well everything right; the SME did things a bit
more right.
Without the Cetech and Donut it would have been murdered.
All IMHO ...
Hi Any idea where I can find these non slip mats in Britian, do B&Q do them?
Anyway I found that bolting the arm board to the subschassis brought large improvments in my case ,even though I have read this is a big no no.
I use a unipivot arm rather than the usual gimble bearing Linn arm so it may not work with the linn arm as too tight a coupleing my send vibrations into the bearing housing causeing rattling(But if this is the case why bolt the arm tightly to the arm board or do the vta screw tight?)
I
Anyway I found that bolting the arm board to the subschassis brought large improvments in my case ,even though I have read this is a big no no.
I use a unipivot arm rather than the usual gimble bearing Linn arm so it may not work with the linn arm as too tight a coupleing my send vibrations into the bearing housing causeing rattling(But if this is the case why bolt the arm tightly to the arm board or do the vta screw tight?)
I
Hi,
Finished reading the thread.
From what I can tell from the pic at the Extreme Phono site, the material used looks as if it's a rubber based anti-slip as used inside drawers, under carpets etc.
Sonething I actually have at home and can buy at any store that sells stuff for household use.
So far I've only seen it in cream and green colours but who cares.
The cut-out doughnut shape isn't a bad idea but it doesn't solve a major flaw in the Linn and other similar TTs like Thorens etc.
So, what's the problem?
Well, the spindle is part and parcel of the bearing being made of a solitary piece of metal, the epicenter of 75% of all generated noise within the deck...
What happens is that the vibrations that arise form this are travelling up and down from bearing to spindle and back while waiting for a way to dissipate into heat.
That alone wouldn't be such a catastrophy if it weren't for the fact that we put our record on the platter where it comes in intimate contact with that spindle...Dang!
To make matters worse, the needle, trying hard to read those grooves in the record surface as accurately as possible, inevitably also generates vibrations that will try to find a way out...
Ah, there is a way out, actually there are two, three and more...Bear with me if you're still awake.
Numero uno, the easiest path of least resistance: you guessed it...the spindle.
So what happens, the energy from down below is trying to dissipate in the bearing oil, housing, in short everything it touches but the easiest path is its own material and there, right at the top is the end of the tunnel; the spindle itself nicely in firm contact with the record.
Now the vibrational energy is going to fight its way in while all along the energy generated by the stylus is trying to get out...
Something is bound to go back and forth for awhile...And yes, some of this is obviously going to meet that stylus again.
The poor thing, sensitive enough to read the finest modulation in the groove has now become carrier # 2 for its own tunes and to top it all off it'll also be disturbed by strange energy from elsewhere, none of which has anything in common with the original recorded message, bien entendu.
A little story for the fun of it all:
Up to the cartridge housing, hey, if we're lucky we're going to drive a cabrio as the owner carefully removed the hood_ rattle and shake that a bit and on through the set of screws_ why they put two there is beyond the small brain of any vibe, it's confusing enough as it is_up to the arm tube now....
Aaarghhh, no luck today...traffic's coming from the opposite direction and it looks as if it means business...good thing the tube gets wider towards the end, eases down on traffic jams a bit.
Stop. Where to go now?
Lessee.....Another one of these confusing things. Couldn't they have made a nice unipivot for us to cross?
There are three ways to cross here? Can't be.
Oh well let's try this one...Hmmm that one's hard. Let's try the other one. That's better.
We're back into the tunnel now...still alot of traffic comming up though...
But look at poor Joe, our neighbour from across the street, he didn't find the way out and has gone all the way back from where he came from...You think we'll see him again?
Life sux....if you're a vibe.
You don't want to be a vibe, or do you?
Well, they shouldn't complain. Their brothers living on well designed TTs with a well designed arm enjoyed a much, much shorter life anyway.
Want to hear what I'm on about?
Have some cones ready. Three's all you need.
Odd numbers rule in this game and numero uno is god.
Let's put one underneath the TT bottom right underneath the motor unit, tip facing downwards.
Now you can slip another one carefully at the opposing end towards the back keeping in mind we want to create a triangle with, more or less, equidistant sides all along making sure our TT is still sitting table. Put the tip so it faces the plinth.
Put the third one closest to the front making sure all sits nice and stable. Tip upwards as well.
Switch on your gear, let it warm up while you have the TT spinning already.
Stop it, put on a record you're very familiar with and have a listen.
Like what you're hearing? Try some more.
Now turn all three cones upside down and listen again. You should hear a small degradation of the sound.
You could also remove the cones but I guess you got the message already.
The trick with the cones isn't a fraction as obvious as the difference between a well designed TT, arm and cartridge is but add it all up and you can well imagine what it could do to the final result...Could you?
Hope you enjoyed it,
Finished reading the thread.
From what I can tell from the pic at the Extreme Phono site, the material used looks as if it's a rubber based anti-slip as used inside drawers, under carpets etc.
Sonething I actually have at home and can buy at any store that sells stuff for household use.
So far I've only seen it in cream and green colours but who cares.
The cut-out doughnut shape isn't a bad idea but it doesn't solve a major flaw in the Linn and other similar TTs like Thorens etc.
So, what's the problem?
Well, the spindle is part and parcel of the bearing being made of a solitary piece of metal, the epicenter of 75% of all generated noise within the deck...
What happens is that the vibrations that arise form this are travelling up and down from bearing to spindle and back while waiting for a way to dissipate into heat.
That alone wouldn't be such a catastrophy if it weren't for the fact that we put our record on the platter where it comes in intimate contact with that spindle...Dang!
To make matters worse, the needle, trying hard to read those grooves in the record surface as accurately as possible, inevitably also generates vibrations that will try to find a way out...
Ah, there is a way out, actually there are two, three and more...Bear with me if you're still awake.
Numero uno, the easiest path of least resistance: you guessed it...the spindle.
So what happens, the energy from down below is trying to dissipate in the bearing oil, housing, in short everything it touches but the easiest path is its own material and there, right at the top is the end of the tunnel; the spindle itself nicely in firm contact with the record.
Now the vibrational energy is going to fight its way in while all along the energy generated by the stylus is trying to get out...
Something is bound to go back and forth for awhile...And yes, some of this is obviously going to meet that stylus again.
The poor thing, sensitive enough to read the finest modulation in the groove has now become carrier # 2 for its own tunes and to top it all off it'll also be disturbed by strange energy from elsewhere, none of which has anything in common with the original recorded message, bien entendu.
A little story for the fun of it all:
Up to the cartridge housing, hey, if we're lucky we're going to drive a cabrio as the owner carefully removed the hood_ rattle and shake that a bit and on through the set of screws_ why they put two there is beyond the small brain of any vibe, it's confusing enough as it is_up to the arm tube now....
Aaarghhh, no luck today...traffic's coming from the opposite direction and it looks as if it means business...good thing the tube gets wider towards the end, eases down on traffic jams a bit.
Stop. Where to go now?
Lessee.....Another one of these confusing things. Couldn't they have made a nice unipivot for us to cross?
There are three ways to cross here? Can't be.
Oh well let's try this one...Hmmm that one's hard. Let's try the other one. That's better.
We're back into the tunnel now...still alot of traffic comming up though...
But look at poor Joe, our neighbour from across the street, he didn't find the way out and has gone all the way back from where he came from...You think we'll see him again?
Life sux....if you're a vibe.
You don't want to be a vibe, or do you?
Well, they shouldn't complain. Their brothers living on well designed TTs with a well designed arm enjoyed a much, much shorter life anyway.
Want to hear what I'm on about?
Have some cones ready. Three's all you need.
Odd numbers rule in this game and numero uno is god.
Let's put one underneath the TT bottom right underneath the motor unit, tip facing downwards.
Now you can slip another one carefully at the opposing end towards the back keeping in mind we want to create a triangle with, more or less, equidistant sides all along making sure our TT is still sitting table. Put the tip so it faces the plinth.
Put the third one closest to the front making sure all sits nice and stable. Tip upwards as well.
Switch on your gear, let it warm up while you have the TT spinning already.
Stop it, put on a record you're very familiar with and have a listen.
Like what you're hearing? Try some more.
Now turn all three cones upside down and listen again. You should hear a small degradation of the sound.
You could also remove the cones but I guess you got the message already.
The trick with the cones isn't a fraction as obvious as the difference between a well designed TT, arm and cartridge is but add it all up and you can well imagine what it could do to the final result...Could you?
Hope you enjoyed it,
IME that's the felt mat you're hearing.
Another artefact due to it is absorption of fine detail and dynamics.
Cheers, [/B][/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not as simple as that. As you say later, it's the system. Every bit seesm to count.
The Garrard 301, when suspended on it's original springs sound excellent, despite a massive motor and idler wheel!
Another artefact due to it is absorption of fine detail and dynamics.
Cheers,
[/B][/QUOTE]------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not as simple as that. As you say later, it's the system. Every bit seesm to count.
The Garrard 301, when suspended on it's original springs sound excellent, despite a massive motor and idler wheel!
Enjoyed your post fdegrove.
Thats why roksan have a removeable spindle on their decks.
How about cutting a hole in the centre of a felt mat.i use a ringmat system at the mo and don't want to start cutting holes in it, in case i want to sell in it the future.
May experiment if i can find a chaep felt mat or one of these rubber things.
Anyone tried experimenting woth the motor fixing.Due to the need to lean the motor at a slight angle the motor is not properly mounted to the deck and will vibrate more than if held ridgidly.The two screws that press down most be in tight contact but if too tight they will distort the other two fixings on the the motor topplate.Is there a way of fixing the motor more firmly without distorting the toplate and still being able to remove the motor for repair or to adjust the angle?
Thats why roksan have a removeable spindle on their decks.
How about cutting a hole in the centre of a felt mat.i use a ringmat system at the mo and don't want to start cutting holes in it, in case i want to sell in it the future.
May experiment if i can find a chaep felt mat or one of these rubber things.
Anyone tried experimenting woth the motor fixing.Due to the need to lean the motor at a slight angle the motor is not properly mounted to the deck and will vibrate more than if held ridgidly.The two screws that press down most be in tight contact but if too tight they will distort the other two fixings on the the motor topplate.Is there a way of fixing the motor more firmly without distorting the toplate and still being able to remove the motor for repair or to adjust the angle?
Frank,
Where's the vibration coming from, that you refer to?
The bearing is incredibly precise and is the most expensive single part of an LP12.
The LP12 works on the principle that all energy appears equally within the system and cannot therefore generate a differential signal that can appear at the cartridge.
Attempts to absorb or transform this energy make the situation worse, not better.
Andy.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.