Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
What Wenzel puts in front is his choice
What Cuno made at home using my clock is Cuno's choice
Elso Kwak said:
The Wenzel circuit contains a LM317........
And the TL431 is in Cuno Snoeren's circuit recommended as DIY-supply for your clock.........
Wenzel Finesse circuit:
http://www.wenzel.com/documents/finesse.html
Cuno's circuit:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t708955/schem/xoschema.jpg
What Wenzel puts in front is his choice
What Cuno made at home using my clock is Cuno's choice
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
Well, that is his conclusion, I have my own
You can do a lot with the Q of crystals: You can spoil them, increasing cycle to cycle jitter, or eventually drive them with negative impedance and increase the whole.
Elso Kwak said:
Interesting post. The guy at the Sympatica site who did Spice simulations and analysed the circuit came to whole different conclusions.
Referring to noise at or near clockfrequencies we differ in opinion.
Can't do much about the Q with available crystals.
Well, that is his conclusion, I have my own
You can do a lot with the Q of crystals: You can spoil them, increasing cycle to cycle jitter, or eventually drive them with negative impedance and increase the whole.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
Whatever people say, I use a sufficiently large decoupling cap to achieve the lowest noise I can reach. Certainly not a 1 or 10 uF cap!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Guido Tent said:
Whatever people say, I use a sufficiently large decoupling cap to achieve the lowest noise I can reach. Certainly not a 1 or 10 uF cap!!
Re: Preregulate
You can't generalize, Elso.
My Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 has internally one reg for each voltage pin at each chip.
There are some 20 regs inside, I didn't count them.
Most of them are 78Lxx/79Lxx regs.
When new, these things came with an unregulated PSU.
Long time ago I made a reg. PSU for it, and you can't imagine the improvement. This is, in fact, pre-regulation.
AA asked big money for a regulated PSU for this dac, as an optional item.
Now... this same regulated PSU gives poor results with my (diy) phono preamp, wich has LM317/337s inside.
With this phonopre, I made a simple, small, cheap, unregulated PSU, and yes, it gives much better results than the other one.
Can you get a conclusion for this?
In my oppinion, it can be that the LM317/337 doesn't like to be pre-regulated, while the 78xx/79xx do benefit from it.
So... each application is different, and each reg. is different and may behave differently.
You should not generalize when giving an advice and shouldn't take your own conclusions with a single test/application.
Elso Kwak said:Spot off!
I found that pre-regulation makes soundquality worse.
So I don't use it anymore. This does not apply to PI-filters.
You can't generalize, Elso.
My Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 has internally one reg for each voltage pin at each chip.
There are some 20 regs inside, I didn't count them.
Most of them are 78Lxx/79Lxx regs.
When new, these things came with an unregulated PSU.
Long time ago I made a reg. PSU for it, and you can't imagine the improvement. This is, in fact, pre-regulation.
AA asked big money for a regulated PSU for this dac, as an optional item.
Now... this same regulated PSU gives poor results with my (diy) phono preamp, wich has LM317/337s inside.
With this phonopre, I made a simple, small, cheap, unregulated PSU, and yes, it gives much better results than the other one.
Can you get a conclusion for this?
In my oppinion, it can be that the LM317/337 doesn't like to be pre-regulated, while the 78xx/79xx do benefit from it.
So... each application is different, and each reg. is different and may behave differently.
You should not generalize when giving an advice and shouldn't take your own conclusions with a single test/application.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
This article has been written to demystify some aspect of jitter in digital audio etc.)
Your comment about Cuno's circuit amazes me. But I presume you now are in favor of the RC filter feeding the emitter follower as on your site.
So I take it you no longer support Cuno's circuit. It was in one of your PDF files on the net. (The why and how of low jitter oscillators Guido Tent, November 2000Guido Tent said:
This article has been written to demystify some aspect of jitter in digital audio etc.)
Your comment about Cuno's circuit amazes me. But I presume you now are in favor of the RC filter feeding the emitter follower as on your site.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
Guido, with your XO clock, you send your customers a Word document (you sent me that doc too) with this on it:
"Cuno Snoeren has designed a good example of such a supply, where all recommendations have found their place. It is shown below."
And...
"To supply this regulator a separate transformer may be used, to obtain maximum performance."
The suggested PSU for your XO clock, present on this doc, is a TL431+BC550.
What gives?
Guido Tent said:
Guido, with your XO clock, you send your customers a Word document (you sent me that doc too) with this on it:
"Cuno Snoeren has designed a good example of such a supply, where all recommendations have found their place. It is shown below."
And...
"To supply this regulator a separate transformer may be used, to obtain maximum performance."
The suggested PSU for your XO clock, present on this doc, is a TL431+BC550.
What gives?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
You run too fast
Cuno's circuit is a nice circuit that can be build by many people, it is DIY.
Another issue is what circuit is best in my opinion, and what is best for DIY versus commercial use.
I went over to the RC filtered emitter follower style as it is still easy and offers lower noise compared to Cuno's circuit.
I assume you drive a newer car than the one you liked 20 years ago, no ?
regards
Elso Kwak said:
So I take it you no longer support Cuno's circuit. It was in one of your PDF files on the net. (The why and how of low jitter oscillators Guido Tent, November 2000
This article has been written to demystify some aspect of jitter in digital audio etc.)
Your comment about Cuno's circuit amazes me. But I presume you now are in favor of the RC filter feeding the emitter follower as on your site.
You run too fast
Cuno's circuit is a nice circuit that can be build by many people, it is DIY.
Another issue is what circuit is best in my opinion, and what is best for DIY versus commercial use.
I went over to the RC filtered emitter follower style as it is still easy and offers lower noise compared to Cuno's circuit.
I assume you drive a newer car than the one you liked 20 years ago, no ?
regards
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
you wrote
" Referring to noise at or near clockfrequencies we differ in opinion. Can't do much about the Q with available crystals "
And my answer was that you CAN. If you intend, that is another issue.
regards
Elso Kwak said:
Guido,
It was not my intention to spoil the Q and hence increase jitter.....Why should I want to do that?
you wrote
" Referring to noise at or near clockfrequencies we differ in opinion. Can't do much about the Q with available crystals "
And my answer was that you CAN. If you intend, that is another issue.
regards
This thread is going the wrong direction if some of you continue to check every possible detail in what your opponent says/said to proove you're right in some way. This is irritating and does not add anything to the discussion ( nor is it interesting to read for other members ).Consider this an official warning. Please keep to the subject
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
By the time it was a nice circuit. I and others learned in the last 4 years. 431 based circuits can be improved by the way, but will never achieve the low noise level that I like to have for best performance.
You see to ignore that it is offered as a good starting point for the true DIY clock builder - what is wrong with that ?
Elso Kwak said:
Hi Guido,
So now all of the sudden Cuno's circuit is nice. And before you were grumping about the 431-based rubbish.......Well, well......
By the time it was a nice circuit. I and others learned in the last 4 years. 431 based circuits can be improved by the way, but will never achieve the low noise level that I like to have for best performance.
You see to ignore that it is offered as a good starting point for the true DIY clock builder - what is wrong with that ?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
Nothing wrong.
Thanks for your offering.
Around a year ago I bought two XOs from you at 27€ each and I appreciate you offer this for diyers.
This price is unbeatable.
Thanks for selling this product!
It's unique.
Guido Tent said:
Nothing wrong.
Thanks for your offering.
Around a year ago I bought two XOs from you at 27€ each and I appreciate you offer this for diyers.
This price is unbeatable.
Thanks for selling this product!
It's unique.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regulated Powersupply for Clock
Hi Carlos,
Thanks for your mail. Please do not take it personal. There are thousands of happy customers with an unbeatable price to quality solution, even including 431's in the supply.
enjoy
carlosfm said:
Nothing wrong.
Thanks for your offering.
Around a year ago I bought two XOs from you at 27€ each and I appreciate you offer this for diyers.
This price is unbeatable.
Thanks for selling this product!
It's unique.
Hi Carlos,
Thanks for your mail. Please do not take it personal. There are thousands of happy customers with an unbeatable price to quality solution, even including 431's in the supply.
enjoy
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