my tall K18 is back at my house - not been there for a long time ~41.5" tall, 21.5" wide, 16" deep with a curved reflector.. I think it wold look better if made 36"x 22" x 16" as a new K15"
Commercial K18 (Gauss 5181) were around 12 cubic feet bulk, Karlson sold one which assume was 1.2X scale K15.
Using a common 18 with farily reasonale moving mass like an Eminence Si8gma 18, the advantages of cone area and decent xmax (~6.4mm for Sigma 18) can be impressive. It might cutoff a few Hz higher than a 15 if you made a K18 with the same exact size as K15.
Low mass 18" speaker such as EV18B don't seem to exist any more.
Remember K15 and K18 are not for the lowest octaves - their strengths are adept upper bass, better cone control than direct radiator, low distortion.
If Acoustic Control's 115BK cabinet were scaled 1.2X then it would make a K15 size "K18" - that might be fun.
One could dispense with the upper part of the front chamber and make an 18 inch driver version of my "Kube12" cabinet - an XKi
With a 2:1 chamber split that's 80 liters foir the rear chamber and 40 liters for the front chamber. I don't know if it wold come clowe to a bandpass sim - but maybe pretty close:
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Commercial K18 (Gauss 5181) were around 12 cubic feet bulk, Karlson sold one which assume was 1.2X scale K15.
Using a common 18 with farily reasonale moving mass like an Eminence Si8gma 18, the advantages of cone area and decent xmax (~6.4mm for Sigma 18) can be impressive. It might cutoff a few Hz higher than a 15 if you made a K18 with the same exact size as K15.
Low mass 18" speaker such as EV18B don't seem to exist any more.
Remember K15 and K18 are not for the lowest octaves - their strengths are adept upper bass, better cone control than direct radiator, low distortion.
If Acoustic Control's 115BK cabinet were scaled 1.2X then it would make a K15 size "K18" - that might be fun.
One could dispense with the upper part of the front chamber and make an 18 inch driver version of my "Kube12" cabinet - an XKi
With a 2:1 chamber split that's 80 liters foir the rear chamber and 40 liters for the front chamber. I don't know if it wold come clowe to a bandpass sim - but maybe pretty close:
.
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you could make a 120 liter 18" XKi with 3:1 chamber ratio -remember to add driver displacement and bracing to the rear chamber volume for the build.
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As mentioned before a 1.2 scaled 115BK Acoustic Control cabinet would make a compact "k18" of K15 bulk with very little vent compression at high levels.
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As mentioned before a 1.2 scaled 115BK Acoustic Control cabinet would make a compact "k18" of K15 bulk with very little vent compression at high levels.
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I like them on guitar- An EVM15L sounded good on lead (clean) guitar in the Acoustic Control115BK and I liked Cannabis Rex in a K12. Diyaudio member Suntiger" builds Karlson-type with curved reflectors per Karlson patent 3540544 - I wonder how those affect use with guitar ?
Stanley Clarke used a K-rig - perhaps built by Alembic (?)
Stanley Clarke used a K-rig - perhaps built by Alembic (?)
Thank you Freddi, nice speakers!
https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-16352-1381928099972.jpg
I was looking at the impedance plot of the speaker into a Karlson speaker:
The impedance rises less but on a wider range of frequency. This makes the lows less enhanced and the low-mids more ahead on a typical pentode amp.
Plus the diffusion of the speaker that is always a positive point onstage.
I have some Fane speakers for guitar (12") and bass (10"), how can I understand how to adapt the cab to the specs of those speakers?
Would you prefer me to open a dedicated thread?
https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-16352-1381928099972.jpg
I was looking at the impedance plot of the speaker into a Karlson speaker:
The impedance rises less but on a wider range of frequency. This makes the lows less enhanced and the low-mids more ahead on a typical pentode amp.
Plus the diffusion of the speaker that is always a positive point onstage.
I have some Fane speakers for guitar (12") and bass (10"), how can I understand how to adapt the cab to the specs of those speakers?
Would you prefer me to open a dedicated thread?
A standard K12 size would be good for both size speakers -
If the Fane 12 motor then it might go lower in my Kube12 than a K12 - but don't know how it sounds on bass or guitar
For the 10" you could go a bit smaller to aN ~ 2/3 scale K15 raising the cutoff a bit
here's a 10 inch Beta 10cx in a 0.62 size K15 vs the same speaker in a much larger Karlsonator -the little box was stronger in one area.
Your Fane 10" might work out ok
Also - here's a higher qts PRV 10 in the 0.62 scale K15. K15 = the original Karlson cabinet from 1952.
If the Fane 12 motor then it might go lower in my Kube12 than a K12 - but don't know how it sounds on bass or guitar
For the 10" you could go a bit smaller to aN ~ 2/3 scale K15 raising the cutoff a bit
here's a 10 inch Beta 10cx in a 0.62 size K15 vs the same speaker in a much larger Karlsonator -the little box was stronger in one area.
Your Fane 10" might work out ok
Also - here's a higher qts PRV 10 in the 0.62 scale K15. K15 = the original Karlson cabinet from 1952.
Attachments
Thanks alot!
Guitar amps have always very high Zout (above 20 Ohm as the output stage is a PP of pentodes in AB class with small amounts of feedback, almost removed on high-mids and low-mids to eq the amp based on the impedance curve of the speaker), so a difference in impedance means also a difference in efficiency, but impedance plots of the Karlsonators seems fine on this: quite flat and with a wider but lower resonance peak.
Bass amps have huge variation: from tube amps with very high Zout to solid state amps with Hi-Fi-ish Zouts (also because they always have hundreds of Wrms, so more control on lows is mandatory).
Guitar amps have always very high Zout (above 20 Ohm as the output stage is a PP of pentodes in AB class with small amounts of feedback, almost removed on high-mids and low-mids to eq the amp based on the impedance curve of the speaker), so a difference in impedance means also a difference in efficiency, but impedance plots of the Karlsonators seems fine on this: quite flat and with a wider but lower resonance peak.
Bass amps have huge variation: from tube amps with very high Zout to solid state amps with Hi-Fi-ish Zouts (also because they always have hundreds of Wrms, so more control on lows is mandatory).
I was around in the 50s, finishing high school and starting college in 1958, but I had no clue about the Karlsons back then. It took me about 40 years to first encounter the Karlsons in Sound Practices Vol. 4 where John Tucker and Jeff Markwart used them as a subwoofers to extend their A7 system to lower frequencies.
I've since learned about the original K15 and its dimensions and internal geometry including the slant baffle, shelf, front and back, and vertical upper divider with a 45 degree forward panel, and with a rectangular 4 1/2" wide port opening (by how high? Is it 9"?) from the back chamber.
My current interest in the Karlsons is to correct problems with my implimentation of Lowther PM2As in Front-Firing Fidelios, see attached, which have an objectionable resonance for both male and female voice in the frequency range of 200-400 Hz.
I have some pairs of Altec LF drive units...515-8G, 416-8C, 416-8A or B, can't remember...that I'd like to try in Karlson cabinets, to run them with 500 Hz crossovers. to try to eliminate the resonance problem, allowing the woofs to run up to ~500Hz. So, not to use them as sub-woofers.
And so, I check ebay from time to time to see if any Karlsons come up. And a day or two ago I found a pair of Karlson X15s, not K15s, so the smaller enclosure introduced later on. Reading this thread, the X15 was smaller and had a curved, 3 section upper divider, but the ebay listing shows the same upper configuration as the K15, vertical with a 45 degree slant forward element at the top. The ebay listing is at:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...m570.l1313&_nkw=Karlson+X15+cabinets&_sacat=0
It seems very different from what I find in this thread as the description of the X15.
Any thoughts you may have about my quandries would be appreciated.
Very Best, Robert
I've since learned about the original K15 and its dimensions and internal geometry including the slant baffle, shelf, front and back, and vertical upper divider with a 45 degree forward panel, and with a rectangular 4 1/2" wide port opening (by how high? Is it 9"?) from the back chamber.
My current interest in the Karlsons is to correct problems with my implimentation of Lowther PM2As in Front-Firing Fidelios, see attached, which have an objectionable resonance for both male and female voice in the frequency range of 200-400 Hz.
I have some pairs of Altec LF drive units...515-8G, 416-8C, 416-8A or B, can't remember...that I'd like to try in Karlson cabinets, to run them with 500 Hz crossovers. to try to eliminate the resonance problem, allowing the woofs to run up to ~500Hz. So, not to use them as sub-woofers.
And so, I check ebay from time to time to see if any Karlsons come up. And a day or two ago I found a pair of Karlson X15s, not K15s, so the smaller enclosure introduced later on. Reading this thread, the X15 was smaller and had a curved, 3 section upper divider, but the ebay listing shows the same upper configuration as the K15, vertical with a 45 degree slant forward element at the top. The ebay listing is at:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...m570.l1313&_nkw=Karlson+X15+cabinets&_sacat=0
It seems very different from what I find in this thread as the description of the X15.
Any thoughts you may have about my quandries would be appreciated.
Very Best, Robert
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That's the K15, introduced formally at the HiFi Fair fall 1952. The seller is ignorant. X15 was announced in the October 1965 AUDIO Annual Directory and has nominal dimensions of 28" tall 20" wide (mine are more like 19.375") and a depth of ~15 inches. They are one cubic foot more in external bulk than a K12 and could make an interesting system with a subwoofer.
K15's often sell for less than 10th of that asking price. I'm about to get rid of a rough pair so my kid can take over my house. I might give those away.
An X15 would probably start rolling off below 75Hz or so.
K15's often sell for less than 10th of that asking price. I'm about to get rid of a rough pair so my kid can take over my house. I might give those away.
An X15 would probably start rolling off below 75Hz or so.
thanks @freddi , so the K15 is about 33"H - 22"W - 18"d ? ........ my dilemma is placement in my workshop , rectangle 26' x 45' , The problem is I cannot place them on the ground , there's a shelf I could place them about 6'-6" high on the 26' wall , my concern is direction of sound waves up there , would it help if I leaned the top forward say 10 degrees and/or would it help if they were placed upside down ?........... I haven't purchased them yet , just trying to figure out if this will work especially the way the drivers angle upwards about 60 degrees that's why I was thinking placing them upside down considering the height the'll be at .
interesting , good find , looks like there about 4 1/2 ' high in the pic. , so if I get them I will do the inverted placement . this helps make my decision to get these , my research from you and others really has my curiosity up on this design ........ I have a pair of Altec 9844a 's up there now that are good for the height as they were designed for wall mounting in auditorium's .
I wish that was true , currently I haven't seen anything under $500 except 1 single cabinet for $399 , there's 1 pair going for $2,500 ! of course these are listed on Ebay (rip off bay) but your probably right finding them at a garage sale , thrift store or swap meet . I would like to find a pair but not at these Ebay #'s
ebay.com/itm/144550364369?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9K2ZTZ7G72D0QGP4G&hash=item21a7df84d1:g:-6oAAOSwMtxifIuv&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4Pz4ZAA0cPlnY7Q6LM0fOBnVnEV1Rspn3R6Ri%2BSgYWBPpzpQrZoGlpA6%2BKDlQR0F5ucauzUogfm1QQurRJc7vNz8VywzcDaz5UyoVze7m9K7HoIjLUz7ez02g80%2FZ13TPPLQ8D9KKca%2FcxYZVtJ3KyV8b%2FYfbssuTpD34EXb53hp371crlHjmrN1UaGo9og0PcUmXhAzciZ92QkVctxRQjRURErGEi6v6FbTdYaqV8XfOAmrQAukQFuZ9d2GxpndQZYxeOVK3EZGdoOLssX6WjmgGzLz2ucijZtgrrIEdX0I%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/256474376441?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9RMPGZB0TK0482AA5&hash=item3bb71068f9:g:2aAAAOSwQZ1j7AXs&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CNFHBEAntkGyWPrRRIeDSmJT6bHyJdHHjKmBSIfhT64DP7mBF0r6H47utRrb1BUOhTG53QaN9ofdHyD4uMSItJ%2FWGMr1qLqG2ewv5IOCuu6Go59eSnp0N0lruDE3E53h0JmFT8%2BU7gyS0FoJpQPaHflorVAsa5wmnRDchotop8MG%2BD4EcW3%2F82zBtQu2p8bSU2TVpJrzz%2F6f2XNVp1CpttC4zdZV9DGgOya44nuJ6Sgx1osFTTcjZj8keNyQvjEyXxYD880N3UJnner1ETRdYfkrJqEGUxkIOLAKBpl0Lx%2B%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/256397710951?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9X184TA9GCG20G78M&hash=item3bb27e9667:g:8r0AAOSwd7RlvCqq&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CeI8gorrtSkski21PgbWejgizSn3oQEM%2B8qeiaBVK5uppTixcg5Jsm6ANHSwGTE3oM0sOVcKjKOEnpCqVBKthkyAA%2BsjJaQMxLITBF4L1c%2B8y6eilHyAVs7X3%2FocwXEM7mmbJwMIemNbrmlb6z1Da6qnJXX6mRkK5QHckHO%2Fxc19RfJMOFDV8zaMzo8GruvkaHOO0R4xUGWtbi1IbC4tUKZpidHO6PiTIaO4h7TOkBUezNwOysc7uGOlhWAC4QAv%2FerIgZbpM%2Bmt5maft45Ggqb8zjdAXUy7zMoQeRlCteA%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/156141284961?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA91MTPPD0V3V7182KK&hash=item245abeee61:g:jlgAAOSwP3plCT6k&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4LLHQ3dL2knOHyQcLxgc%2FxvU%2Bepazi%2BBz2PCO47VK2%2FQ02VoBaYe1xK3UvdmPp76vz9GO%2BOsnbZq23lvuzPIrbsql2LB8PU0sPGpFpH7UcY19a2Vdv4Yip1ZyUZPN%2B3r%2FQgzRq%2BUZn0cp4tORUq5eOLULnsW4FfWCy%2FAkAUMv5DfWiwqDNX3KdDfhmjXUnF4FXRPkPPpuBcaGrlG2dxeJdqIFvjNMGDTTgNCL%2BoAS4%2FHYmP0V77F8Xkid5C36kBhZMI5lyiKzv0xKHdx%2BfXSQgAa5f9bguALZwbnFfJldal%2F%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/144550364369?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9K2ZTZ7G72D0QGP4G&hash=item21a7df84d1:g:-6oAAOSwMtxifIuv&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4Pz4ZAA0cPlnY7Q6LM0fOBnVnEV1Rspn3R6Ri%2BSgYWBPpzpQrZoGlpA6%2BKDlQR0F5ucauzUogfm1QQurRJc7vNz8VywzcDaz5UyoVze7m9K7HoIjLUz7ez02g80%2FZ13TPPLQ8D9KKca%2FcxYZVtJ3KyV8b%2FYfbssuTpD34EXb53hp371crlHjmrN1UaGo9og0PcUmXhAzciZ92QkVctxRQjRURErGEi6v6FbTdYaqV8XfOAmrQAukQFuZ9d2GxpndQZYxeOVK3EZGdoOLssX6WjmgGzLz2ucijZtgrrIEdX0I%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/256474376441?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9RMPGZB0TK0482AA5&hash=item3bb71068f9:g:2aAAAOSwQZ1j7AXs&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CNFHBEAntkGyWPrRRIeDSmJT6bHyJdHHjKmBSIfhT64DP7mBF0r6H47utRrb1BUOhTG53QaN9ofdHyD4uMSItJ%2FWGMr1qLqG2ewv5IOCuu6Go59eSnp0N0lruDE3E53h0JmFT8%2BU7gyS0FoJpQPaHflorVAsa5wmnRDchotop8MG%2BD4EcW3%2F82zBtQu2p8bSU2TVpJrzz%2F6f2XNVp1CpttC4zdZV9DGgOya44nuJ6Sgx1osFTTcjZj8keNyQvjEyXxYD880N3UJnner1ETRdYfkrJqEGUxkIOLAKBpl0Lx%2B%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/256397710951?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA9X184TA9GCG20G78M&hash=item3bb27e9667:g:8r0AAOSwd7RlvCqq&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CeI8gorrtSkski21PgbWejgizSn3oQEM%2B8qeiaBVK5uppTixcg5Jsm6ANHSwGTE3oM0sOVcKjKOEnpCqVBKthkyAA%2BsjJaQMxLITBF4L1c%2B8y6eilHyAVs7X3%2FocwXEM7mmbJwMIemNbrmlb6z1Da6qnJXX6mRkK5QHckHO%2Fxc19RfJMOFDV8zaMzo8GruvkaHOO0R4xUGWtbi1IbC4tUKZpidHO6PiTIaO4h7TOkBUezNwOysc7uGOlhWAC4QAv%2FerIgZbpM%2Bmt5maft45Ggqb8zjdAXUy7zMoQeRlCteA%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
ebay.com/itm/156141284961?itmmeta=01HV4CYAA91MTPPD0V3V7182KK&hash=item245abeee61:g:jlgAAOSwP3plCT6k&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4LLHQ3dL2knOHyQcLxgc%2FxvU%2Bepazi%2BBz2PCO47VK2%2FQ02VoBaYe1xK3UvdmPp76vz9GO%2BOsnbZq23lvuzPIrbsql2LB8PU0sPGpFpH7UcY19a2Vdv4Yip1ZyUZPN%2B3r%2FQgzRq%2BUZn0cp4tORUq5eOLULnsW4FfWCy%2FAkAUMv5DfWiwqDNX3KdDfhmjXUnF4FXRPkPPpuBcaGrlG2dxeJdqIFvjNMGDTTgNCL%2BoAS4%2FHYmP0V77F8Xkid5C36kBhZMI5lyiKzv0xKHdx%2BfXSQgAa5f9bguALZwbnFfJldal%2F%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yl-YzZYw
perhaps there's a local trade school or high school which could build a new pair for you. $2500 would be a good deal for a pair of Klipsch Belle with all drivers intact - but not Karlson enclosures. (unless there's drivers/crossovers included known to fetch nearly that amount by themselves)
K15 to many is considered a bad joke and I've seen many original K15 over the years at Ebay down to $100 or so with veneer and decal in good shape not sell. (Conversely I've seen a few diy K's sell at higher prices than factory units)
Either these sellers are completely ignorant of the market for Karlson enclosures - or just plain hoping for an affluent - ignorant buyer.
There is one K15 left at Reverb of a pair custom- made by Sub Zero for the owner of the last Karlson speaker forum , the late Gregg Baker. Gregg had never heard one and thought it might be something someone would purchase in a kit form.
https://reverb.com/item/42314720-1-...te-3015lf-bass-cabinet-by-subzero-one-speaker
In the X15 size, Acoustic Control's 115BK is an excellent little K and for wide range playback wold need a subwoofer below 80Hz.
You could probably cobble together a functioning K and have its pants cut by Home Depot. (The curved panels for K15 and K12 are drawn by a radius arc given by Carl Neuser.
Re: Akabak 1&2 I think both are a bit optimistic as to K15's low end. A series bandpass modeler such as hornresp should come reasonably close. I don't think all the "volume" in the front chamber is active due to the wedge shape whose volume is heading towards "zero" while the aperture is going to full width. Looking at K15 impedance plots should help.
K15 to many is considered a bad joke and I've seen many original K15 over the years at Ebay down to $100 or so with veneer and decal in good shape not sell. (Conversely I've seen a few diy K's sell at higher prices than factory units)
Either these sellers are completely ignorant of the market for Karlson enclosures - or just plain hoping for an affluent - ignorant buyer.
There is one K15 left at Reverb of a pair custom- made by Sub Zero for the owner of the last Karlson speaker forum , the late Gregg Baker. Gregg had never heard one and thought it might be something someone would purchase in a kit form.
https://reverb.com/item/42314720-1-...te-3015lf-bass-cabinet-by-subzero-one-speaker
In the X15 size, Acoustic Control's 115BK is an excellent little K and for wide range playback wold need a subwoofer below 80Hz.
You could probably cobble together a functioning K and have its pants cut by Home Depot. (The curved panels for K15 and K12 are drawn by a radius arc given by Carl Neuser.
Re: Akabak 1&2 I think both are a bit optimistic as to K15's low end. A series bandpass modeler such as hornresp should come reasonably close. I don't think all the "volume" in the front chamber is active due to the wedge shape whose volume is heading towards "zero" while the aperture is going to full width. Looking at K15 impedance plots should help.
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freddi , thank you for the response and knowledge on this , I think what attracted me most about this pair is the 28 lbs. each " goodmans of England 415 Triaxiom drivers " in them............ not much out there on these but what I did find compared them to Altec 604's and some say better . ....... the speakers in the picture are not the ones for sale but the same as you can see in my original post in the ones I'm looking at .
