Even back in the early 1970's, we thought that MC cartridges sounded better than any Shure phono cartridge. At first, the only alternative was Ortofon, but then the Japanese MC like the Supex was introduced and we never went back. For the record, the Vendetta Research SCP-2 will ONLY work with an MC cartridge.
For those who don't understand my input, the mis-tracking artifact that I measured in 1978, still stands as 'reasonable worst case' caused by mis-tracking an MC phono cartridge. Of course, IC op amps have improved over the last 40 years, at least I would hope so, but still, with mid-fi equipment, 741 like op amps are often used, even today.
For those who don't understand my input, the mis-tracking artifact that I measured in 1978, still stands as 'reasonable worst case' caused by mis-tracking an MC phono cartridge. Of course, IC op amps have improved over the last 40 years, at least I would hope so, but still, with mid-fi equipment, 741 like op amps are often used, even today.
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Pretty please lets figure out what product on the market, especially in the $100-$1000 USD uses a 741. I can expect to see a lot of other low-cost IC's there, but not likely a 741.
And even if power bandwidth is the FOM, something like a OPA164x does 188 kHz on 17 V rails, while having way less distortion, better handling of input impedance imbalances, and way, way, way less noise. Something like the AD86x0 is even faster (nice chip!).
I struggle to see an audio application that demands anywhere near that level of power bandwidth (for an IC, of course; a power amp is obviously a different story, although I'd still be more than content with said power bandwidth)
And even if power bandwidth is the FOM, something like a OPA164x does 188 kHz on 17 V rails, while having way less distortion, better handling of input impedance imbalances, and way, way, way less noise. Something like the AD86x0 is even faster (nice chip!).
I struggle to see an audio application that demands anywhere near that level of power bandwidth (for an IC, of course; a power amp is obviously a different story, although I'd still be more than content with said power bandwidth)
re 741...... I think JC is referring to the topology still being used not the actual part number.
JC also has designed power amps.... which are a lot more difficult and few IC are available to replace discrete. Even in DAC era we still need power amps. Is it allowed to consider JC's PA here along with JC preamp??
-RNM
JC also has designed power amps.... which are a lot more difficult and few IC are available to replace discrete. Even in DAC era we still need power amps. Is it allowed to consider JC's PA here along with JC preamp??
-RNM
I actually drive it... 50,0000 miles on it... nice grocery getter. Waly, what will you do when I replace the W12 TT Bentley?
Maybe I'll just keep it and let it go to rust just to annoy you. -Richard
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The LM318 designed in 1971
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm318-n.pdf
Another one to make forget the 741 "standard".
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm318-n.pdf
Another one to make forget the 741 "standard".
It's simply that the entire argument is completely nonsensical. One can make a stupidly good audio amplifier with the 741 architecture - which is pretty much the basis of so many discrete designs to boot.
If we want to talk about how terrible IC's are, you probably should compare against, oh, a part that I can buy today from most any distributor for $3 in singles. It's also hilarious to complain about the cost of the top-flite IC's in comparison with unobtanium discrete JFETs (which cost far, far more). At which point it's quite a hard sell on older discrete circuits as their advantages are long superseded. Not to say that you cannot make exemplary discrete designs, but good luck doing much better in line-level applications (and phono/microphone).
If we want to talk about how terrible IC's are, you probably should compare against, oh, a part that I can buy today from most any distributor for $3 in singles. It's also hilarious to complain about the cost of the top-flite IC's in comparison with unobtanium discrete JFETs (which cost far, far more). At which point it's quite a hard sell on older discrete circuits as their advantages are long superseded. Not to say that you cannot make exemplary discrete designs, but good luck doing much better in line-level applications (and phono/microphone).
Well PMA, did you use LM318's for audio products? It is easy to talk about the past that you did not participate in. I know that Ampex did, but the 318 does have some problems, and was not as popular as the AD741 or even the LF356 back in 1976. There was also the 741S that was a slew-enhanced version of the 741. It had other problems that were measured by Walt Jung in the 1970's, but I used them for Vu meter buffers back then.
Back then I tried LM318 and LF357 for line stage. My customer found both to be too biting, so I used LF356 (some of which (sadly) degraded with time)
I actually drive it... 50,0000 miles on it... nice grocery getter. Waly, what will you do when I replace the W12 TT Bentley?
Mr. Marsh, I have to admit, the way your brain is processing an irony is absolutely stupendous. It must be due to those LLC radiations.
You are mistaken. They are not talking electronics. They are just swapping old wives tales from way back when.
Jan
Yes, my mistake. It's just doubly ironic in light of the frequent complaints that no one is interested in advancing the field. When did willful ignorance (I'm probably being charitable) become a badge of honor?
Regarding mistracking of cartridges...... IMO... most people used the lower end of the suggested cart pressure setting to promote longevity of the LP and the cartridge...... But caused mistracking more often. The best pressure setting was the upper suggested one which kept the needle in the groove. But few people wanted the cart/Lp wear so the mistracking was fairly common in peoples systems.
THx-RNMarsh
THx-RNMarsh
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Of course, the LM318 needed at least the ability to read and interpret datasheet plots and parameters
. Though the 741 needed nothing, with its internal compensation and ultra slow behavior.It has nothing in common with the audio design. The designer was either competent (and chosen the proper frequency compensation according to circuit application), or incompetent, and then came into troubles. Back in the days, I considered people who designed for audio mostly incompetent. It was not nice of me, I agree. I tried to change my view later, but I am afraid that I am returning to my first impressions as I read some of the repeated stories. I do not know whom are they for, a crowd of admirers, usually unfamiliar with circuit design? Or does it just help to raise sales
? I would probably ask the same question that has been asked recently, what and whom is it good for?
Sometimes that is true, but back in the early days arms and cartridges weighed a lot more than their 1970's on styles. So even if tracking weight was only 2.2g, the movement of the arm from any varience in the record would exert a lot more force briefly. Albums simply would wear out much faster at radio stations etc, who would even use a little extra weight for no fuss. (This is what I've read creeping around old vinyl info)
But with VTA and azimuth you can generally get most to track pretty middle of the road. Its more of a problem to come across LP's that were pressed with too small of grooves and too tightly close together, cause poor playback.
Guys,
Not to embarrass the guilty, but I just went through two different Pro Audio manufacturer's service schematics. Not a 741 to be found, but LM324s, LM301s and other oldies.
Now the really bad comparator types are mostly used for turning on or off LEDS. There was one Pro product where red was good and yellow was bad!
Now getting to oldies, the TL072 is still in widespread audio use. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/EON-G2 Series/EON_MusicMix_14_Schematics.pdf
Another manufacturer produces a similar product with LM1558s!
I think the only reason 741s are not being used in these products is that it is a single and the dual units are more cost effective.
As to old and obsolete, can we talk about thermionic amplifiers?
Not to embarrass the guilty, but I just went through two different Pro Audio manufacturer's service schematics. Not a 741 to be found, but LM324s, LM301s and other oldies.
Now the really bad comparator types are mostly used for turning on or off LEDS. There was one Pro product where red was good and yellow was bad!
Now getting to oldies, the TL072 is still in widespread audio use. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/EON-G2 Series/EON_MusicMix_14_Schematics.pdf
Another manufacturer produces a similar product with LM1558s!
I think the only reason 741s are not being used in these products is that it is a single and the dual units are more cost effective.
As to old and obsolete, can we talk about thermionic amplifiers?
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