Sweetwater? Stereo system for less than 20.000$
JBL M2 Reference Monitor System - 2 Speaker System | Sweetwater.com
LSR308 is poor man's M2 for 249,-/each JBL LSR308 8" Active Studio Monitor | Sweetwater.com
3 Series Products | JBL Professional
JBL M2 Reference Monitor System - 2 Speaker System | Sweetwater.com
LSR308 is poor man's M2 for 249,-/each JBL LSR308 8" Active Studio Monitor | Sweetwater.com
3 Series Products | JBL Professional
I think the 708i is the "poor" mans M2. Compression driver and pro derived woofer and a similar spinorama curve... I believe they are passive wich is also cost saving compared to the M2 that require a set of crown amps or a Harman based DSP.
LSR708i Products | JBL Professional
LSR708i Products | JBL Professional
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I think the cheapest if you don't want to go with all the M2 parts sold at Speaker Exchange like they did in the Lansing Heritge bar is to go for the stock passive one and putt the filter than pos member writted (translation of the genuine passive one) for MiniDsp. Btw, the last MiniDSP little 2x4 is now FIR proof, digital in USB ready...
Less than 10 000 USD ?
Me want to listen the Yorkville Unity U15, the Danley of the Poor... unfornatully not hearable in France... Don't know if Yorkville Canada is still making it !
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LSR 708i Price in Greece is 1.659€ each JBL LSR 708i MASTER REFERENCE MONITOR 2 WAY 8'' - PASSIVE STUDIO MONITORS - artsound.gr e-shop
708 is passive with built-in xo, 308 is active with built-in xo
308 is lighter, both have same frequency response and directivity, almost same bass extension
Both have 8" bass
LSR308 max peak spl 112dB
LSR708i max pak spl 114dB
JBL LSR305 & LSR308
"
708 is passive with built-in xo, 308 is active with built-in xo
308 is lighter, both have same frequency response and directivity, almost same bass extension
Both have 8" bass
LSR308 max peak spl 112dB
LSR708i max pak spl 114dB
JBL LSR305 & LSR308
"
Yes, really a poor one as well : 114 dB peak max, no more than my old hifi Kef 104/2 from the 80s'
Surely no more than 90 dB efficienty
Both spec are far from the PA world but maybe thanks to the compression driver it has the subjectiv dynamic behavior !
Anyway with such poor SPL & efficienty I can't understand why not to go with a more linear classic driver in the horn !
Tweaking = poor DIY 
.... for 199 euros, keep the beautifull cabinet above : putt a better tweeter in it : SB acoustic, Berylium, whatever you like.... and don't know if better 8" than this JBL ?
So : JBL LSR 308 : 199 euros x 2
+ : New MiniDsp 4x2 HD, FIR enabled : 220 euros
+ : new tweeter : SB 29 RDC ? : 120 euros
740 for a lot of fun ?
Or, el JBL LSR-305 : 125 euros x 2 , mid-woof is 5" ! Putt the new Satori 5" in it ? http://www.thomann.de/es/jbl_lsr_305.htm?ref=search_prv_0_2
bye, bye wood working ????
.... for 199 euros, keep the beautifull cabinet above : putt a better tweeter in it : SB acoustic, Berylium, whatever you like.... and don't know if better 8" than this JBL ?So : JBL LSR 308 : 199 euros x 2
+ : New MiniDsp 4x2 HD, FIR enabled : 220 euros
+ : new tweeter : SB 29 RDC ? : 120 euros
740 for a lot of fun ?
Or, el JBL LSR-305 : 125 euros x 2 , mid-woof is 5" ! Putt the new Satori 5" in it ? http://www.thomann.de/es/jbl_lsr_305.htm?ref=search_prv_0_2
bye, bye wood working ????
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I think you might be jumping to hasty conclusions, or lack some skills in basic loudspeaker design. Here is why i say that:
1. You are talking about this construction:
Explore KEF - Reference Series Model 104/2 - KEF International ???
A semi-large floorstander in comparison? That is quoted 2db less? Hardly a fair comparison. Physics didn't change since the 80's.
A small speaker will "allways" be limited by it woofers VD.
A large speaker is usually limited by the tweeter for must music. A small dome tweeter can compress very early. The 708 avoids that because the power needed for the tweeter is so low.
2. You are comparing two products that probably use two different methods for comparing power handling/max SPL. The 708 is a product targeted for multi-channel mastering use (5-8 hour high SPL use) and therefore probably much more conservatively rated than the KEF.
The mentioned 3 series from JBL that features a dome tweeter is more of a nearfield / mixing desktop monitor. Even though its peak SPL is "near", its continous power handling is probably not as good as the 708's pro derived drivers. (remember 3db means doubling of power)
JBL is as far I know one of few who actually run a 100 hour power test with max power for all their drivers. The KEF tweeter will not last very long in this setting. See the JBL tech videos.
3. 114db is loud. Depending on frequency band that is enough to cause serious hearing damage after very short time. 114db is close to peak SPL during stadium concerts. If you have been to such concerts you know that your ear rings for hours afterwards if you don't wear hearing protecting.
DIY is fun, but at lower price points you are not gonna beat a mass produced product designed by knowledgeable engineers.
I also disagree with your design proposal. The cabinet is probably the worst/cheapest part of the 308. The value in the spaker lies in the xo/amp combination that has been tailored to those exact drivers in that wg/enclosure at a proper research facility.
Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to explain why I disagree with you.
PS: All of this is just my general point of view when it comes to speaker design, I do not have experience with the 708.
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Ah, yes I agree, I lack totally of knowledge about that ! It was just general ideas I launched for more powerfull minds than mine ! If it was the first bad idea I had... but it isn't (many can testimony here !)
1- is 2 dB difference a lot at maximum peak ? Here I compare just dB max peak with the idea than the JBL has poor outputt for a professionnal device which is made for mastering in relation to a casual hifi one, that's all ! Even if I know enough to understand that this single 8" woofer to do this is moving 4 x more than the 2 x 8" of the Kef ! Certainly at the price of more distorsion for the JBL ! Is it a better idea for a PA stuff ! But yes I agree, not the same price range ! Kef : 700 USD a pair second hand VS 400 USD for the LSR308... almost twicer expensive !
The idea behind was : if the JBL tweeter is a 1" dome with a scaled horn from the M2 so any other 1" dome tweeter could be as good if not better instead the JBL's (not known to make the best dome conventional tweeter) ! The horn maybe helping indeed to gain efficienty do distorss less (=less power needed as you writted at equal spl I assume!)
2- Ok, I was talking about it just in a conventional hifi use, may I ? (too simple idea to think that if it's good for pro it's also good for simple consumers?) ! Indeed I don't listen at 110 dB or more at average level ! I even believe my not ferrrofluided ears could break before the Kef T33 tweeters... but here we talk about ms peaks (= no problem for ears)
3- This is me who disagree now : 114 dB peak is indeed confortable but still poor if your others stuffs around permitt it, reccording included off course(not so much halas), with huge classical event (can go as high than 130 dB peak... we talk of peaks of course, so dynamic behavior and not average listening level). And I come back to point 1 : the more dB peak we have, the less distorsion we have as well at the highest peaks = happy listening !
I beat Nothing and certainly not JBL engineers, I just hilight a fun perspective by tweaking a product : with all the humility I can have being not myself an engineer team, though I already managed some !)
PS : just my personal point of view as it 's about myself ! To make shorter a long story, you can see what I wrote as an odd idea to take part to a shared process of ideas, even if bad (ah you know the wine, la vie, et tout ça quoi... )
(many can testimony here !)1- is 2 dB difference a lot at maximum peak ? Here I compare just dB max peak with the idea than the JBL has poor outputt for a professionnal device which is made for mastering in relation to a casual hifi one, that's all ! Even if I know enough to understand that this single 8" woofer to do this is moving 4 x more than the 2 x 8" of the Kef ! Certainly at the price of more distorsion for the JBL ! Is it a better idea for a PA stuff ! But yes I agree, not the same price range ! Kef : 700 USD a pair second hand VS 400 USD for the LSR308... almost twicer expensive !
The idea behind was : if the JBL tweeter is a 1" dome with a scaled horn from the M2 so any other 1" dome tweeter could be as good if not better instead the JBL's (not known to make the best dome conventional tweeter) ! The horn maybe helping indeed to gain efficienty do distorss less (=less power needed as you writted at equal spl I assume!)
2- Ok, I was talking about it just in a conventional hifi use, may I ? (too simple idea to think that if it's good for pro it's also good for simple consumers?) ! Indeed I don't listen at 110 dB or more at average level ! I even believe my not ferrrofluided ears could break before the Kef T33 tweeters
... but here we talk about ms peaks (= no problem for ears)3- This is me who disagree now : 114 dB peak is indeed confortable but still poor if your others stuffs around permitt it, reccording included off course(not so much halas), with huge classical event (can go as high than 130 dB peak... we talk of peaks of course, so dynamic behavior and not average listening level). And I come back to point 1 : the more dB peak we have, the less distorsion we have as well at the highest peaks = happy listening !
I beat Nothing and certainly not JBL engineers, I just hilight a fun perspective by tweaking a product : with all the humility I can have being not myself an engineer team, though I already managed some !)
PS : just my personal point of view as it 's about myself ! To make shorter a long story, you can see what I wrote as an odd idea to take part to a shared process of ideas, even if bad (ah you know the wine, la vie, et tout ça quoi...
)
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I sent Dale Pro audio an email explaining that I was getting bids for an M2 system. The quote came back at a considerable discount. YMMV.
The passive one is still a little expensive here : JBL M2 - ENCEINTES DE MONITORING - MONITORING PASSIF | Woodbrass.com
123 dB peaks (1 m)... more PA world....
123 dB peaks (1 m)... more PA world
....
Tweaking = poor DIY
So : JBL LSR 308 : 199 euros x 2
+ : New MiniDsp 4x2 HD, FIR enabled : 220 euros
+ : new tweeter : SB 29 RDC ? : 120 euros
740 for a lot of fun ?
Or, el JBL LSR-305 : 125 euros x 2 , mid-woof is 5" ! Putt the new Satori 5" in it ? JBL LSR 305 - Thomann España
bye, bye wood working ????
This won't work out all that well I guess.
Harman products are developed with an 'integrated design' philosophy in mind. This means all components are optimized for specific design goals and let's not forget a well defined BOM (bill of materials).
Just dropping in (completely) different (though high quality) drivers in a LSR cabinet will probably result in a degradation performance wise.
For instance the LSR waveguides are developed for optimal performance with the tweeters. These tweeters will not equal the Satoris' performance and build quality, but are technically a different animal. The dome en surround are optimized for the waveguide (the dome is actually much flatter, less a pure dome , this was discovered by Patrick Bateman in another thread) and this is just 1 visible difference.
The actual cabinets are probably the parts on which JBL really saves money, as you can read here:
JBL LSR308 Review
And here:
JBL LSR305 Studio Monitors
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Ha, glad to see that JBL fans won't be disappointed by that beautiful "neutral" voicing which is part of the brand's DNA...
With or without waveguide, CD or not CD, bright will be bright, and boomy will be boomy, but if this fits the taste of the fans club...
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You are probably referring to the good 'ol 'West Coast Sound'?
JBL's used to sound rather 'hot' and sometimes a little 'boomy' especially compared to
to European loudspeakers. Still, I consider JBL's contributions to loudspeaker technology invaluable. JBL's top of the line products were and still are without a doubt examples of superior engineering. I guess, a great part of JBL's reputation is the result of marketing input on their high volume (low- and mid-end) products.
I have owned more than a few pairs of JBL loudspeakers, but most of these were made in Denmark with Audax drivers. These speakers were 'voiced' to meet European preferences.
JBL's used to sound rather 'hot' and sometimes a little 'boomy' especially compared to
to European loudspeakers. Still, I consider JBL's contributions to loudspeaker technology invaluable. JBL's top of the line products were and still are without a doubt examples of superior engineering. I guess, a great part of JBL's reputation is the result of marketing input on their high volume (low- and mid-end) products.
I have owned more than a few pairs of JBL loudspeakers, but most of these were made in Denmark with Audax drivers. These speakers were 'voiced' to meet European preferences.
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My brother, certainly not a JBL aficionado, had the pleasure to attend an extensive demo with the Everest D67000's. He was positively surprised by the clean, effortless performance without typical horn related anomalies. This demo took place after his experiences with some G.I.P. Labotory Horn systems (up north from $375.000).
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I remember i liked how "Hotel California" sounded on a pair of L36, but how almost laughable sounded classical music on these too... Not really the BBC sound...
I think that this good 'ol' sound has now become the "global mainstream" one, voiced to enjoy the masterpieces of modern muses like Beyonce or Lady Gaga. What else matters for a global leading company ...
Designers might enjoy Goldberg Variations in private, but rappers buying cheap "phat response" semi pro monitors pay their wages...
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Agreed
But if you refer to 'BBC sound' as in '<84dB LS3/5A prolyprop woofered monitor sound' , in nearly every aspect a complete antagonist of it's American (L100/4310) counterpart, this could be just as far away from 'the truth' ....Whatever that might be.
By the way: my JBL XTi-100's rendered Ton Koopmans' Goldberg Variations on harpsichord beautifully (without edginess).
But if you refer to 'BBC sound' as in '<84dB LS3/5A prolyprop woofered monitor sound' , in nearly every aspect a complete antagonist of it's American (L100/4310) counterpart, this could be just as far away from 'the truth' ....Whatever that might be.
By the way: my JBL XTi-100's rendered Ton Koopmans' Goldberg Variations on harpsichord beautifully (without edginess).
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I find the AUDAX metal dome tweeter they use excellent.
Btw, whatever good a waveguide might do to the polar response, if the driver itself is a 2 $ piece of crap...
Yes, LSR tweeters will not even come close to SB Satori's, Morels, Scanspeak etc. in terms of quality, let alone performance.
With regards to application of a waveguide from a JBL studiomonitor (either LSR or M2) in a DIY project: these will probably only yield satisfying results with the original drivers. By optimization in Comsol all components are 'matched': from the diaphragms and phase plug inside the M2 coaxial compression driver (which is an OEM by BMS) to the exit angle, horn throat and WG profiles.
These Audax/JBL drivers from the (X)Ti series were very nice indeed, apart from the glue they used to stick the magnets to the baskets. I had to refix several of these over time.
With regards to application of a waveguide from a JBL studiomonitor (either LSR or M2) in a DIY project: these will probably only yield satisfying results with the original drivers. By optimization in Comsol all components are 'matched': from the diaphragms and phase plug inside the M2 coaxial compression driver (which is an OEM by BMS) to the exit angle, horn throat and WG profiles.
These Audax/JBL drivers from the (X)Ti series were very nice indeed, apart from the glue they used to stick the magnets to the baskets. I had to refix several of these over time.
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