Re: Equalizing Ciare
Hi Ralf,
thanks for your interesting post. Wowie, four of these subs should give a nice blast of bass energy! Do you have any pictures now?
If you don't mind, I have a truckload of questions...
- Do you still use a baffle of 170x140cm?
- Still using one additional magnet?
- Any interesting details about your baffle, do you use special materials?
- What drivers did you compare the Ciare with. Also with the Supravox 215 Bicone driver? I am thinking about buying a pair for comparison. Should be similar, but maybe a bit better and more extended and balanced.
- These Attac 400 subs look very interesting. Are they expensive? I am also considering dipole subs, but then DIY. I will have to do some research to find a nice plan.
- What do you do with the EQ. Mainly adding some HF?
- What digital EQ do you use? Behringer/PC?
I hope you can help me out
Fedde
Hi Ralf,
thanks for your interesting post. Wowie, four of these subs should give a nice blast of bass energy! Do you have any pictures now?
If you don't mind, I have a truckload of questions...
- Do you still use a baffle of 170x140cm?
- Still using one additional magnet?
- Any interesting details about your baffle, do you use special materials?
- What drivers did you compare the Ciare with. Also with the Supravox 215 Bicone driver? I am thinking about buying a pair for comparison. Should be similar, but maybe a bit better and more extended and balanced.
- These Attac 400 subs look very interesting. Are they expensive? I am also considering dipole subs, but then DIY. I will have to do some research to find a nice plan.
- What do you do with the EQ. Mainly adding some HF?
- What digital EQ do you use? Behringer/PC?
I hope you can help me out
Fedde
Re: Re: Equalizing Ciare
Hi Fedde,
i can help you out.....
since the wooden baffles 170x140cm are very big and ugly and not usable in a normal livingroom, i decided to make something with glass and wood.
My new ones are a mix of glass and wood and look smaller because of the glass. the size is anyway 150x130 now.
least month i tried to bend the baffle, but the sound descents. it is best, when the baffle ist plan and not bend.
yes i still have one aditional magnet, but since i have two additional pairs of Ciares i will test with two magnets sometimes.
The comparisons i have are the AER (Lowthers), Fostex Fe103S,
then professinal speakers: Avantgarde Acousic UNO, AirMotion Transformer Projects, B&W 802, legendary smooth "Mini Monitor " of german Hobby-Hifi Magazin.
See also: www.high-end-manufaktur.de
I had (and heared) many speakers and amplifiers last twenty ears. I went from fullrange horn speakers (lowther) to 2-way systems and then back to fullrange open baffle (Ciare)
I made my baffles, that i can remove teh driver easily and replace it with drivers up to 30cm. Supravox 2000exc, manger are planed..
It will be very intersting to hear somthing about your experiences with Supravox in comparison to Ciare...
The comercial version of Attac 400 was tested in german magazis like "Stereo" and "Stereoplay" and got reference standard awards. The comercial version is about 4000.- Euro one piece.
Since i knowhow to make them i made the myself. But the way of making them is secret and it`s copyrighted (patented)
i use a special qiet computer fpr playing my CD`s of harddisc, wit software like Samplitude 8 or Wavelab 5 and professional Audio-card like M-Audio, ESI-Juli and so on.
The EQ-Plugin is called "Voxengo EQ" and its a VST Plugin.
When Music is plyed by Harddisk of PC the sound quality can not be topped even by CDP`s for 10.000,- and out of the Audio card i go directly digitaly to digital amplifier. No D/A Converters at all
I tested many Tube amloifiers and Class A Amlifiers last years and
none of them beats the fully digital solution i use in the moment.
i know of what i speak!
With the equalizer i smooth the frequency response at the hearing place. All what you need is a "AudioController" or good software-meassuring tool. It depends on the hearing room charkteristics. I did not enhance high frequency of Ciare, i only smmothed it at the points wher it does too much or too less.
The equalizing of the room acoustics brings mor natural sound than changing drivers.
I will make some pics next days..
If you like you can contakt me private.
I hope this information helps a little bit...
Ralf
fedde said:Hi Ralf,
thanks for your interesting post. Wowie, four of these subs should give a nice blast of bass energy! Do you have any pictures now?
If you don't mind, I have a truckload of questions...
- Do you still use a baffle of 170x140cm?
- Still using one additional magnet?
- Any interesting details about your baffle, do you use special materials?
- What drivers did you compare the Ciare with. Also with the Supravox 215 Bicone driver? I am thinking about buying a pair for comparison. Should be similar, but maybe a bit better and more extended and balanced.
- These Attac 400 subs look very interesting. Are they expensive? I am also considering dipole subs, but then DIY. I will have to do some research to find a nice plan.
- What do you do with the EQ. Mainly adding some HF?
- What digital EQ do you use? Behringer/PC?
I hope you can help me out
Fedde
Hi Fedde,
i can help you out.....
since the wooden baffles 170x140cm are very big and ugly and not usable in a normal livingroom, i decided to make something with glass and wood.
My new ones are a mix of glass and wood and look smaller because of the glass. the size is anyway 150x130 now.
least month i tried to bend the baffle, but the sound descents. it is best, when the baffle ist plan and not bend.
yes i still have one aditional magnet, but since i have two additional pairs of Ciares i will test with two magnets sometimes.
The comparisons i have are the AER (Lowthers), Fostex Fe103S,
then professinal speakers: Avantgarde Acousic UNO, AirMotion Transformer Projects, B&W 802, legendary smooth "Mini Monitor " of german Hobby-Hifi Magazin.
See also: www.high-end-manufaktur.de
I had (and heared) many speakers and amplifiers last twenty ears. I went from fullrange horn speakers (lowther) to 2-way systems and then back to fullrange open baffle (Ciare)
I made my baffles, that i can remove teh driver easily and replace it with drivers up to 30cm. Supravox 2000exc, manger are planed..
It will be very intersting to hear somthing about your experiences with Supravox in comparison to Ciare...
The comercial version of Attac 400 was tested in german magazis like "Stereo" and "Stereoplay" and got reference standard awards. The comercial version is about 4000.- Euro one piece.
Since i knowhow to make them i made the myself. But the way of making them is secret and it`s copyrighted (patented)
i use a special qiet computer fpr playing my CD`s of harddisc, wit software like Samplitude 8 or Wavelab 5 and professional Audio-card like M-Audio, ESI-Juli and so on.
The EQ-Plugin is called "Voxengo EQ" and its a VST Plugin.
When Music is plyed by Harddisk of PC the sound quality can not be topped even by CDP`s for 10.000,- and out of the Audio card i go directly digitaly to digital amplifier. No D/A Converters at all
I tested many Tube amloifiers and Class A Amlifiers last years and
none of them beats the fully digital solution i use in the moment.
i know of what i speak!
With the equalizer i smooth the frequency response at the hearing place. All what you need is a "AudioController" or good software-meassuring tool. It depends on the hearing room charkteristics. I did not enhance high frequency of Ciare, i only smmothed it at the points wher it does too much or too less.
The equalizing of the room acoustics brings mor natural sound than changing drivers.
I will make some pics next days..
If you like you can contakt me private.
I hope this information helps a little bit...
Ralf
Re: Re: Re: Re: Equalizing Ciare
dont know,
but here you find some informations about a similar project:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm
Ralf
jdybnis said:
dont know,
but here you find some informations about a similar project:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm
Ralf
Re: Re: Re: Re: Equalizing Ciare
DE000010230669A1
DE000019830947A1 through C1
(look it up at www.depatisnet.de, but it is all in german of course)
If you want to know a bit more about ripoles similar to the ATTAC, you may find my thread interesting:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50964&highlight=
And ... there is not much secret behind them.
Rudolf
Patent number isjdybnis said:
DE000010230669A1
DE000019830947A1 through C1
(look it up at www.depatisnet.de, but it is all in german of course)
If you want to know a bit more about ripoles similar to the ATTAC, you may find my thread interesting:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50964&highlight=
And ... there is not much secret behind them.
Rudolf
Thanks for all your information and photos Ralf!
I agree that PC's can be a good source for digital music. But it is not so easy to get realy good quality audio out of a PC. Multimedia players like windows mediaplayer completely change the sound. I use Foobar2000. The audiopipeline can be totally configured to your own wishes. I am busy writing some DSP plugins for EQ as I am not happy with the internal EQ. The Foobar EQ does work to improve the balance. But at the same time it also removes quite some dynamics, soundstaging and life. I even made a better plugin in for volume control, as the foobar volume made the sound more unclear. Are you complety happy with your EQ?
I use an external 19" WAMI-rack24 soundcard for S/P-DIF coax out. It also has some neat clocking (word clock) options that I still have to try...
Your baffles are still very large (150x130)! Mine are 122x66. I would not really like to make them much bigger, as my room is not that big (24 m2). I hope it will be possible to get good integration with a sub at this baffle size. BTW: the glass works quite well in your baffles!
Those subs really look nice! I would like to make something like that too, my Ciares really can use some extra sub bass! That tower would have cost a lot of money if they were real Attacs...
BTW: why don't you use them in stereo? And do you really need four of them?
Interesting, your comments on digital amplifiers. I would really like to hear your system...
Greetings,
Fedde
I agree that PC's can be a good source for digital music. But it is not so easy to get realy good quality audio out of a PC. Multimedia players like windows mediaplayer completely change the sound. I use Foobar2000. The audiopipeline can be totally configured to your own wishes. I am busy writing some DSP plugins for EQ as I am not happy with the internal EQ. The Foobar EQ does work to improve the balance. But at the same time it also removes quite some dynamics, soundstaging and life. I even made a better plugin in for volume control, as the foobar volume made the sound more unclear. Are you complety happy with your EQ?
I use an external 19" WAMI-rack24 soundcard for S/P-DIF coax out. It also has some neat clocking (word clock) options that I still have to try...
Your baffles are still very large (150x130)! Mine are 122x66. I would not really like to make them much bigger, as my room is not that big (24 m2). I hope it will be possible to get good integration with a sub at this baffle size. BTW: the glass works quite well in your baffles!
Those subs really look nice! I would like to make something like that too, my Ciares really can use some extra sub bass! That tower would have cost a lot of money if they were real Attacs...
BTW: why don't you use them in stereo? And do you really need four of them?
Interesting, your comments on digital amplifiers. I would really like to hear your system...
Greetings,
Fedde
...
@ Fedde,
yes, there is nothing perfect in the audio-wold.
So with the EQ Plugins:
But i have tested the most of the EQ -plugins, and Voxengo was the best (at least for me) of them.
Sometimes, when playing very loud recorded CD`s you can hear kind of very quite digital clipping, but thats perhaps for less than 5 % of my CD`s.
Voxengo EQ ist the Eq which affects the sound quality less than the others. Even it has no hearable affect (for me)to the dynamics and colors of Instruments and Voices.
For Paying music i tried -out Foobar2000. When i use no EQ i cannot hear differences between Foobar2000 and Samplitude or Wavelab. Unfortunately Foobar has no proper EQ.
I would like to use Foobar or Samplitude with an EQ, with which you can adjust every channel , seperately (Voxengo does not!)
there is one EQ with which you can adjust stereo, but there are too less bands, Voxengo has 60.
@Fedde and Rudolf
I think one of my dipole-Woofers would be enough, but i once planed an other Speaker project and i had 4 of them left...
Sometimes i will devide the woofers and try-out 2 of the left and two of the right side - perhaps, but in moment i see no need of it, because i am pleased with the result as ist is...
Ralf
@ Fedde,
yes, there is nothing perfect in the audio-wold.
So with the EQ Plugins:
But i have tested the most of the EQ -plugins, and Voxengo was the best (at least for me) of them.
Sometimes, when playing very loud recorded CD`s you can hear kind of very quite digital clipping, but thats perhaps for less than 5 % of my CD`s.
Voxengo EQ ist the Eq which affects the sound quality less than the others. Even it has no hearable affect (for me)to the dynamics and colors of Instruments and Voices.
For Paying music i tried -out Foobar2000. When i use no EQ i cannot hear differences between Foobar2000 and Samplitude or Wavelab. Unfortunately Foobar has no proper EQ.
I would like to use Foobar or Samplitude with an EQ, with which you can adjust every channel , seperately (Voxengo does not!)
there is one EQ with which you can adjust stereo, but there are too less bands, Voxengo has 60.
@Fedde and Rudolf
I think one of my dipole-Woofers would be enough, but i once planed an other Speaker project and i had 4 of them left...
Sometimes i will devide the woofers and try-out 2 of the left and two of the right side - perhaps, but in moment i see no need of it, because i am pleased with the result as ist is...
Ralf
Rudolf
...i think i won`t get fooled by you!
we do not belong to the Hifi - people, which do think: "less than my equipment is not sufficient for good HiFi, and more Equipment cannot be good for HiFi, too" - do we?
Ralf
Rudolf said:
Fedde,
we had the honour to look at the first subwoofer line array in history
If Ralf puts another two on top he might even get into the Guiness Book of Records
Rudolf
...i think i won`t get fooled by you!
we do not belong to the Hifi - people, which do think: "less than my equipment is not sufficient for good HiFi, and more Equipment cannot be good for HiFi, too" - do we?
Ralf
Re: ...
I'd like to try Samplitude (and Voxengo). I have version 5.55 here. Like Fedde I use Foobar, however I have an Emu 0404 soundcard which I believe supports VST (both the soundcard and it's options are still very new to me). I output AES/EBU or SPDIF to my Behringer 8024 digital equalizer and output SPDIF to my battery-powered non-oversampling DAC (amp is Joe Rasmussen's JLTi).
My speakers are Supravox 215 Signature Bicone in open baffle. Baffle size is 78x133 cm. The entire baffle however is placed on a box which is 30 cm high. This places the height of the drivers (centre) at 118 cm from the ground. I also have the rectangular baffles against the side-walls, placing the units' centres about 50 cm from the side-walls. The speakers are ~60 degrees inwards-faced.
I've experienced two major issues: placement of the speakers and configuration of the EQ (two separate channels). However I believe I've tackled both after dozens of trials/alterations.
Placement: speakers are now 1.50m from the backwall. They definitely need room behind them. Same goes fore side-distance, however in my room I can't go further than 50 cm. The drivers should point directly at your shoulders (viewed from above). The height of the speakers should be exactly ear-height.
You can create sub-bass with open-baffles with EQ and by having a huge baffle or by having a large section of your baffle against infinite coupling (floor or wall). They will be needing enough 'breathing' room in that case. When I had too much stuff behind/in between the speakers the bass was compressed and sounded bulky. Now that they have more room there I am completely satisfied with sub-bass performance (contrabass/bass guitar/electronic bass). I can follow every note as never before. I think it goes down to about 35 hz.
Left channel
Right channel
In my experience stressing the driver below 100 hz does not compromise mids and highs. However, AB-testing this might turn out unfeasible.
I don't feel the need for a sub now, especially since it would make the system significantly more complex. However if you can tackle all problems it might turn out worthwhile indeed.
There is (at least) one driver with a higher potential of 'sophistication': the AER MD1-B. It has a lower Fs, higher sensitivity, higher impedance, higher power rating, higher xmax, but lower qts (0.65 vs 0.8). It would be nice to try that one, however it's more than 4 times more expensive than the Supravox 215 BC's. I would if I had the money, but in that case I would also very seriously look into Oris horns (making it once again ~2 times more expensive..).
So: my setup is a bargain compared to basically everything I've ever heard. Quality/sensation-wise it's really up there for me.
PS: symmetrics in front AND behind the open baffles are paramount for good imaging.
ralf said:
I'd like to try Samplitude (and Voxengo). I have version 5.55 here. Like Fedde I use Foobar, however I have an Emu 0404 soundcard which I believe supports VST (both the soundcard and it's options are still very new to me). I output AES/EBU or SPDIF to my Behringer 8024 digital equalizer and output SPDIF to my battery-powered non-oversampling DAC (amp is Joe Rasmussen's JLTi).
My speakers are Supravox 215 Signature Bicone in open baffle. Baffle size is 78x133 cm. The entire baffle however is placed on a box which is 30 cm high. This places the height of the drivers (centre) at 118 cm from the ground. I also have the rectangular baffles against the side-walls, placing the units' centres about 50 cm from the side-walls. The speakers are ~60 degrees inwards-faced.
I've experienced two major issues: placement of the speakers and configuration of the EQ (two separate channels). However I believe I've tackled both after dozens of trials/alterations.
Placement: speakers are now 1.50m from the backwall. They definitely need room behind them. Same goes fore side-distance, however in my room I can't go further than 50 cm. The drivers should point directly at your shoulders (viewed from above). The height of the speakers should be exactly ear-height.
You can create sub-bass with open-baffles with EQ and by having a huge baffle or by having a large section of your baffle against infinite coupling (floor or wall). They will be needing enough 'breathing' room in that case. When I had too much stuff behind/in between the speakers the bass was compressed and sounded bulky. Now that they have more room there I am completely satisfied with sub-bass performance (contrabass/bass guitar/electronic bass). I can follow every note as never before. I think it goes down to about 35 hz.
Left channel
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Right channel
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In my experience stressing the driver below 100 hz does not compromise mids and highs. However, AB-testing this might turn out unfeasible.
I don't feel the need for a sub now, especially since it would make the system significantly more complex. However if you can tackle all problems it might turn out worthwhile indeed.
There is (at least) one driver with a higher potential of 'sophistication': the AER MD1-B. It has a lower Fs, higher sensitivity, higher impedance, higher power rating, higher xmax, but lower qts (0.65 vs 0.8). It would be nice to try that one, however it's more than 4 times more expensive than the Supravox 215 BC's. I would if I had the money, but in that case I would also very seriously look into Oris horns (making it once again ~2 times more expensive..).
So: my setup is a bargain compared to basically everything I've ever heard. Quality/sensation-wise it's really up there for me.
PS: symmetrics in front AND behind the open baffles are paramount for good imaging.
thanks
thank you, Nielsio for your letters...
since i once experimented with Lowthers and AER`s in Horns, i made not so good experiences with them.
The AER`s i had were too bright, so i sold the years ago.
Perhaps, now they are better...
Experiences with Ciares in OB (for that price!!) were much better from the beginning.
I never heared Berts equipment, but man people say its oustanding.
Perhaps to annother time i will try new experiences with Front-Horns, since i have still my "matrixes" for 85cm horns.
I think Supravox 2000EXC, and the AER`s are too expensive and i cannot understamd the pricing.
But, if there are People, who pay for it...
greets,
Ralf
thank you, Nielsio for your letters...
since i once experimented with Lowthers and AER`s in Horns, i made not so good experiences with them.
The AER`s i had were too bright, so i sold the years ago.
Perhaps, now they are better...
Experiences with Ciares in OB (for that price!!) were much better from the beginning.
I never heared Berts equipment, but man people say its oustanding.
Perhaps to annother time i will try new experiences with Front-Horns, since i have still my "matrixes" for 85cm horns.
I think Supravox 2000EXC, and the AER`s are too expensive and i cannot understamd the pricing.
But, if there are People, who pay for it...
greets,
Ralf
Re: thanks
I have the same thing. It's my Behringer EQ in that case that's clipping. It's quite easily fixed: either lowering it's input (output of pc) or lowering it's master gain so that it's ouput-signals don't exceed it's limits.
Behringer does.
I think you sold them to me. I however have sold them also some time ago again. They are not open baffle material (except for the new high qts ones perhaps). Also that one had obvious less build quality compared to new ones (especially heard in highs).
Why not EQ horns?
Expensive: yes. Exquisite musical experiences: priceless.
What does your resultant response look like?
My Behringer works very good in flattening the response (since equalizing isn't linear: measuring -3db and add 3db != 0db) (+ of two different! channels). What to do with this afterwards is a much harder thing. What I do now is: I use a 'Thorsten curve' ( http://www.prijsindex.net/tmp/room acoustics and eq.html ), and also lower room bass peaks & lower 125 hz downwards even - ~1.5db & lower 500 hz downwards shelf -1db and 250hz downwards shelf -1db. 4khz upwards even - ~1.5db.
However I think this could be a very interesting study subject (what to do after flattening). One option could be measuring a dozen (commercial) speakers that have exceptional pleasant/natural sound and compare those to see if there is some resemblance.
Result:
or
in a more conservative scale.
I have the same thing. It's my Behringer EQ in that case that's clipping. It's quite easily fixed: either lowering it's input (output of pc) or lowering it's master gain so that it's ouput-signals don't exceed it's limits.
Behringer does.
I think you sold them to me. I however have sold them also some time ago again. They are not open baffle material (except for the new high qts ones perhaps). Also that one had obvious less build quality compared to new ones (especially heard in highs).
Why not EQ horns?
Expensive: yes. Exquisite musical experiences: priceless.
What does your resultant response look like?
My Behringer works very good in flattening the response (since equalizing isn't linear: measuring -3db and add 3db != 0db) (+ of two different! channels). What to do with this afterwards is a much harder thing. What I do now is: I use a 'Thorsten curve' ( http://www.prijsindex.net/tmp/room acoustics and eq.html ), and also lower room bass peaks & lower 125 hz downwards even - ~1.5db & lower 500 hz downwards shelf -1db and 250hz downwards shelf -1db. 4khz upwards even - ~1.5db.
However I think this could be a very interesting study subject (what to do after flattening). One option could be measuring a dozen (commercial) speakers that have exceptional pleasant/natural sound and compare those to see if there is some resemblance.
Result:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
or
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
in a more conservative scale.
ciare dipole
greetings nortbert:
would you please explain what is meant by 3-5-8 ratio when not using the speaker on the floor?
would not extra magnets provide less "boominess" in the bass, in addition to better mids and higher efficiency?
thankyou for pioneering the work with this driver
sincerely david sundby ft. collins colorado usa sundbyd@comcast.net
greetings nortbert:
would you please explain what is meant by 3-5-8 ratio when not using the speaker on the floor?
would not extra magnets provide less "boominess" in the bass, in addition to better mids and higher efficiency?
thankyou for pioneering the work with this driver
sincerely david sundby ft. collins colorado usa sundbyd@comcast.net
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