Hi Chris,the 350 is one of their new models.I also bought some time ago an old MK1 TD160.It is almost ready for use as soon as I finish with an old SME Series II,which needs new decoupling grommets for the counterweight stub.I was lucky enough to also find a TD160 cast metal armboard made by SME !!!
The MK III are actually TD126 not 125.It is of similar construction to the 125,maybe the electronics might be somehow different.Some parts are missing from the one,so if I manage to get both at a good price,I may be able to build one.Good thing is that one of the two is fitted with SME Series III.Having tried a friend's TD125,I can tell you it is a very very nice turntable.Most Thorens "fans"prefer it to the later 126
Try to unlock the one or two small screws on the arm base(the ones for locking arm when adjusting VTA) and try to remove the arm slowly pulling upwards.Theoretically those must be the only holding it in place.Perhaps it would be better to remove bottom plate of TD125 to make sure nothing else is holding the arm.
The MK III are actually TD126 not 125.It is of similar construction to the 125,maybe the electronics might be somehow different.Some parts are missing from the one,so if I manage to get both at a good price,I may be able to build one.Good thing is that one of the two is fitted with SME Series III.Having tried a friend's TD125,I can tell you it is a very very nice turntable.Most Thorens "fans"prefer it to the later 126
Try to unlock the one or two small screws on the arm base(the ones for locking arm when adjusting VTA) and try to remove the arm slowly pulling upwards.Theoretically those must be the only holding it in place.Perhaps it would be better to remove bottom plate of TD125 to make sure nothing else is holding the arm.
Hi Nick,
If I were you, no way would I change the Thorens motor out for anything else! It may need some setting up, which you can do with an oscilloscope and frequency meter (I'm lazy). The second phase is in quadrature with the first driven winding. These motors do not in any way interfere with anything! There is nothing there operating out of a linear area - so not harmonics. Just a pair of sine waves doing their thing. More importantly, there are no brushes to spark or arc.
Unless the original power supply has been badly designed, upgrading it will not improve anything! All this talk is yet another way to pry money out of peoples hands. Really, the only way to get a noisy TD-125 motor is to have either bad bearings, or a malfunctioning clutch assembly. They are easily repaired though. When I worked at a place called Martin Audio, we had a Thorens TD-165 that they bent the motor shaft on. There was the belt, wildly flapping around, and yet there was no real audible problems while playing an album! I had a hard time believing that and spend a fair amount of time listening to it. It always ran just fine, the rotating mass was high enough to reject most of the speed change. There must have been some, I just couldn't hear it. Remember to that the original Thorens bets were not as wide as the replacements are these days. They may have been a little more stretchy too.
What this means is that any noise you are hearing must come up through the main bearing. So, either the bearing itself is worn, or something is vibrating on the support. I'm sure you can find the problem without resorting to changing the motor to something that isn't as good as the original. If I had to replace the motor, I think I'd be looking for an AC drive type from a low voltage sine. I'd then design a variable AC source that was crystal locked with a gradual startup ramp (unless I kept the clutched pulley). There would be a feedback method from the platter and a highly damped frequency correction signal to avoid damaging the motor / drive electronics. If I need a new main bearing, I guess it;s time to see an excellent machinist. The one used by Thorens is a tough act to follow.
The SME 3009 arm is the one I hate! The damping pot especially! No, far too much messing around for me. Maybe a newer version may work better for you? Moving a table with one of these arms is a major hassle. That damping fluid is messy if it (no, make that when) it escapes. Make sure you don't loose the cover! Yuck!
The Ortofon high output cartridges are not moving magnet designs. They are Variable Magnetic Shunt. The magnet and coils are both stationary, only a light weight vane moves when activated by the stylus. I have never owned a moving coil for many reasons, one being the variable loading presented by a transformer. My current preamp does have a very good MC amplifier built in, so some day I may try one. Anyway, the VMS cartridges sound much like a moving coil from what I have heard. They tend to be very smooth with delicate highs. That's about the best way I could describe them. You should really try one of these out. After all, I keep going back to Ortofon as I audition others. One thing that may answer the question of Ortofon's expertise, they make the cutting heads too, they even designed a cartridge / stylus to play the master.
-Chris
If I were you, no way would I change the Thorens motor out for anything else! It may need some setting up, which you can do with an oscilloscope and frequency meter (I'm lazy). The second phase is in quadrature with the first driven winding. These motors do not in any way interfere with anything! There is nothing there operating out of a linear area - so not harmonics. Just a pair of sine waves doing their thing. More importantly, there are no brushes to spark or arc.
Unless the original power supply has been badly designed, upgrading it will not improve anything! All this talk is yet another way to pry money out of peoples hands. Really, the only way to get a noisy TD-125 motor is to have either bad bearings, or a malfunctioning clutch assembly. They are easily repaired though. When I worked at a place called Martin Audio, we had a Thorens TD-165 that they bent the motor shaft on. There was the belt, wildly flapping around, and yet there was no real audible problems while playing an album! I had a hard time believing that and spend a fair amount of time listening to it. It always ran just fine, the rotating mass was high enough to reject most of the speed change. There must have been some, I just couldn't hear it. Remember to that the original Thorens bets were not as wide as the replacements are these days. They may have been a little more stretchy too.
What this means is that any noise you are hearing must come up through the main bearing. So, either the bearing itself is worn, or something is vibrating on the support. I'm sure you can find the problem without resorting to changing the motor to something that isn't as good as the original. If I had to replace the motor, I think I'd be looking for an AC drive type from a low voltage sine. I'd then design a variable AC source that was crystal locked with a gradual startup ramp (unless I kept the clutched pulley). There would be a feedback method from the platter and a highly damped frequency correction signal to avoid damaging the motor / drive electronics. If I need a new main bearing, I guess it;s time to see an excellent machinist. The one used by Thorens is a tough act to follow.
The SME 3009 arm is the one I hate! The damping pot especially! No, far too much messing around for me. Maybe a newer version may work better for you? Moving a table with one of these arms is a major hassle. That damping fluid is messy if it (no, make that when) it escapes. Make sure you don't loose the cover! Yuck!
The Ortofon high output cartridges are not moving magnet designs. They are Variable Magnetic Shunt. The magnet and coils are both stationary, only a light weight vane moves when activated by the stylus. I have never owned a moving coil for many reasons, one being the variable loading presented by a transformer. My current preamp does have a very good MC amplifier built in, so some day I may try one. Anyway, the VMS cartridges sound much like a moving coil from what I have heard. They tend to be very smooth with delicate highs. That's about the best way I could describe them. You should really try one of these out. After all, I keep going back to Ortofon as I audition others. One thing that may answer the question of Ortofon's expertise, they make the cutting heads too, they even designed a cartridge / stylus to play the master.
-Chris
Hi Panicos,
The electronics are different I think. This was a time when consumer electronics seemed to be advancing rapidly. Your 126 type uses IC's I think, the 125 MKII is completely discrete.
Can you do me a favour and take some pictures of the PCBs once you get to yours? That's if you do, and I am thinking positively here. I'd like top and bottom shots, as well as a shot of the chassis underneath. Just in case I have trouble with mine.
I think the only real thing that would make a difference to the way a Thorens runs would be the shaft diameter for the platter. The thicker TD-125 type may be better over time to a thin one (like my ex-TD-115). To be honest, my TD-115 MKII looked really neat. I liked it. It's just that the TD-125 MKII absolutely killed it for rumble and speed stability. I used the Platter Matter on both. After hearing the 125, the 115 drove me nuts to use. Bye bye TD-115. The guy that bought it got a really good table compared to the Pioneer PL-112D he had. I'm sure the TD-115 was miles better than the Pioneer, actually, I know it was because I used to sell the Pioneer. I think I gave him an Ortofon VMS-20E MKII cartridge as well, with a new stylus. The man got a screaming deal and he knew it.
-Chris
Yes, thank you. I did that, but the wires need to be soldered to the rear of the socket. I can't access that. It may be a heat / sweat off thing. I didn't want to damage it trying something I don't really know about.
Hey, cool!
The electronics are different I think. This was a time when consumer electronics seemed to be advancing rapidly. Your 126 type uses IC's I think, the 125 MKII is completely discrete.
Can you do me a favour and take some pictures of the PCBs once you get to yours? That's if you do, and I am thinking positively here.
I'd like top and bottom shots, as well as a shot of the chassis underneath. Just in case I have trouble with mine.I think the only real thing that would make a difference to the way a Thorens runs would be the shaft diameter for the platter. The thicker TD-125 type may be better over time to a thin one (like my ex-TD-115). To be honest, my TD-115 MKII looked really neat. I liked it. It's just that the TD-125 MKII absolutely killed it for rumble and speed stability. I used the Platter Matter on both. After hearing the 125, the 115 drove me nuts to use. Bye bye TD-115. The guy that bought it got a really good table compared to the Pioneer PL-112D he had. I'm sure the TD-115 was miles better than the Pioneer, actually, I know it was because I used to sell the Pioneer. I think I gave him an Ortofon VMS-20E MKII cartridge as well, with a new stylus. The man got a screaming deal and he knew it.
-Chris
Chris
Of course.I can take the pictures for you.I expect to be able to get them in around two weeks as the seller is on a business trip.
Definetely the TD125 is far superior to the 115.Yes Thorens were using the thick shaftS on the more upmarket models like the 125,150,126 and I think the 160/160 S,as well as metal hubs instead of plastic like on TD165,166...... A historic manufacturer and nice that it is still in business.Imagine,125+ years life.
Of course.I can take the pictures for you.I expect to be able to get them in around two weeks as the seller is on a business trip.
Definetely the TD125 is far superior to the 115.Yes Thorens were using the thick shaftS on the more upmarket models like the 125,150,126 and I think the 160/160 S,as well as metal hubs instead of plastic like on TD165,166...... A historic manufacturer and nice that it is still in business.Imagine,125+ years life.
Hi Panicos,
Thank you very much for that. No rush at all, once you actually get into them will be fine.
I can't help but feel lucky. I started off with these (after a Pioneer PL-110) as my first serious table. Back then I had no idea how good these actually were, I just knew they were good. It wasn't until I had a chance to really see the insides of competing turntables before I started to understand.
My TD-125 MKII was given to me, after the poor customer had it messed up by the distributor (Tri-Tel Associates back then). After I had repaired it, I called the customer to say it was properly fixed and he just told me to keep it. The charge wasn't even high, but he said that it had been in for service so many times that he wanted nothing to do with it anymore. He became a good customer and always said that I deserved the table because I fixed it. I find stories like this sad, hack techs are everywhere it seems.
-Chris
Thank you very much for that. No rush at all, once you actually get into them will be fine.
True enough.
I can't help but feel lucky. I started off with these (after a Pioneer PL-110) as my first serious table. Back then I had no idea how good these actually were, I just knew they were good. It wasn't until I had a chance to really see the insides of competing turntables before I started to understand.
My TD-125 MKII was given to me, after the poor customer had it messed up by the distributor (Tri-Tel Associates back then). After I had repaired it, I called the customer to say it was properly fixed and he just told me to keep it. The charge wasn't even high, but he said that it had been in for service so many times that he wanted nothing to do with it anymore. He became a good customer and always said that I deserved the table because I fixed it. I find stories like this sad, hack techs are everywhere it seems.
-Chris
Hi Anatech
Ok I will heed your advice and stay with the ac motors.. I personally have always wondered re the ac/dc thing and It would be a shame to hack a work of art like an old thorens. I have no noise issues with it, I was merely refering to possible emi from the subchassis location of the transformer and circuit board.
I have hit a snag with the sme 3009 in that i bought it off ebay, the arm was damaged (described as a blemish) so i swapped it out. Whilst I was there I placed a bronze knife edge bearing in it but the old pastic one had the arm lift plateau built into it. The dashpot I have doesnt have the plateau but Panicos has kindly sent me a t bar lifting mechanism that should fit over the dashpot I have. He is a great man.
The compelling thing re the 3009 is that you can pull it apart so easily and there are lots (some would say too many) adjustments. The knife edge bearing makes sense, the vta is easily adjustable as is overhang.
Once i get the lifting issue sorted I will see how it goes... If that doesnt please me I might get a Jelco Arm.. they are getting good reviews.
What is your take on the ortofon reb/blue bronze mmagnet carts Anatech?. I am wary of the rizing treble response they exhibit.. where do you buy the carts you recommend?(ie the vms carts)
Nick
Ok I will heed your advice and stay with the ac motors.. I personally have always wondered re the ac/dc thing and It would be a shame to hack a work of art like an old thorens. I have no noise issues with it, I was merely refering to possible emi from the subchassis location of the transformer and circuit board.
I have hit a snag with the sme 3009 in that i bought it off ebay, the arm was damaged (described as a blemish) so i swapped it out. Whilst I was there I placed a bronze knife edge bearing in it but the old pastic one had the arm lift plateau built into it. The dashpot I have doesnt have the plateau but Panicos has kindly sent me a t bar lifting mechanism that should fit over the dashpot I have. He is a great man.
The compelling thing re the 3009 is that you can pull it apart so easily and there are lots (some would say too many) adjustments. The knife edge bearing makes sense, the vta is easily adjustable as is overhang.
Once i get the lifting issue sorted I will see how it goes... If that doesnt please me I might get a Jelco Arm.. they are getting good reviews.
What is your take on the ortofon reb/blue bronze mmagnet carts Anatech?. I am wary of the rizing treble response they exhibit.. where do you buy the carts you recommend?(ie the vms carts)
Nick
Hi Nick,
I've only ever owned the VMS series cartridges, never an MC type. From what I have heard myself, the VMS types sound very much like a moving coil. The added bonus is high output which eliminates the entire MC amp issue.
I bought mine from Gunnar at Planet of Sound in Ottawa. He's a great guy to deal with. Understand that the Ortofon rep forbids internet sales and shipping. I'm pretty sure that their must be good dealers elsewhere in Canada close to you as well.
-Chris
I've only ever owned the VMS series cartridges, never an MC type. From what I have heard myself, the VMS types sound very much like a moving coil. The added bonus is high output which eliminates the entire MC amp issue.
I don't believe that a properly set up cartridge from anyone should have a rising frequency response, especially not one from Ortofon. My suspicion would be either improper loading, or an MC amp that has a rising high response. Possibly to sell more because of an idea that LPs suffer from poor high frequency response? I don't know, but I do know enough about the high fidelity scene to expect all kinds of silly games.
I bought mine from Gunnar at Planet of Sound in Ottawa. He's a great guy to deal with. Understand that the Ortofon rep forbids internet sales and shipping. I'm pretty sure that their must be good dealers elsewhere in Canada close to you as well.
-Chris
A bit confused
Hi Anatech
When you say VMS are you refering to the vms 20/30 etc? or is vms a general type applied to ortofons new line (2m Black, orange red)?
I cant find any Ortofon cart beginning with the prefix VMS so could you enlighten me as to which models you refer to..
If you note the 2m series reviews, they all tend to have a rising treble response which is I suppose intended to make them sound crystal clear... it s not something I want though.. so hopefully the vms series still exist.. can you still buy the carts?
Regards
Nick
Hi Anatech
When you say VMS are you refering to the vms 20/30 etc? or is vms a general type applied to ortofons new line (2m Black, orange red)?
I cant find any Ortofon cart beginning with the prefix VMS so could you enlighten me as to which models you refer to..
If you note the 2m series reviews, they all tend to have a rising treble response which is I suppose intended to make them sound crystal clear... it s not something I want though.. so hopefully the vms series still exist.. can you still buy the carts?
Regards
Nick
Hi tnargs,
With MC cartridges, the output impedance is much lower. That means that you don't have the same magnitude of loss in the higher frequencies. Since the impedance is low, any additional capacitance will not tend to load the highs down as much. So, lower losses all around at higher frequencies.
If you examine the circuitry involved in phono preamps that accept both MM and MC cartridge types (let's ignore Counterpoint here, they are different), you will see that the MC amp is a "flat amp" as the Japanese like to say. That means that the MC stage does not (or should not) apply any frequency corrections on it's own. The only thing that is adjustable here is the cartridge load. Once the MC signal has been amplified by this stage, it is approximately the same magnitude as an MM cartridge, but again the MC preamp out has a much lower impedance than an MM cartridge would present to the input. That means that the HF loading cap for a MM cartridge should not reduce the highs in any meaningful way. Well, now our MC signal is treated to the exact same EQ curve that the MM cartridges receive. That will correct for the pre-emphasis added in the record making process.
An MC cartridge has no reason to be any brighter than an MM cartridge (properly loaded!). The only thing that should matter is the loading in the preamp, and the alignment in the head shell. If you still have a rising response, there is something wrong somewhere. It may be intentional on the part of the cartridge manufacturer, or with the preamp designer. Of course, reports of more brightness may simply be that the people reporting this had a greater loss in the higher frequencies of their MM cartridges (wouldn't surprise me one bit). What I can tell you is that any good brand of MC cartridge would design the frequency response to be flat. That really may sound bright to many people not used to a truly flat frequency response from their turntable.
Beyond that I have no idea how MC cartridges could be marketed as being "hot" in the high frequencies.
-Chris
Well, MM cartridges also follow the same rules you seem to be pointing to here. The characteristic comes from the same mechanism since these cartridges increase output as tip velocity increases. Now, an MM cartridge is normally resonated with a capacitive load in order to reach the higher frequencies that inductance tends to reduce. Not unlike a tape head on an open reel or cassette.
With MC cartridges, the output impedance is much lower. That means that you don't have the same magnitude of loss in the higher frequencies. Since the impedance is low, any additional capacitance will not tend to load the highs down as much. So, lower losses all around at higher frequencies.
If you examine the circuitry involved in phono preamps that accept both MM and MC cartridge types (let's ignore Counterpoint here, they are different), you will see that the MC amp is a "flat amp" as the Japanese like to say. That means that the MC stage does not (or should not) apply any frequency corrections on it's own. The only thing that is adjustable here is the cartridge load. Once the MC signal has been amplified by this stage, it is approximately the same magnitude as an MM cartridge, but again the MC preamp out has a much lower impedance than an MM cartridge would present to the input. That means that the HF loading cap for a MM cartridge should not reduce the highs in any meaningful way. Well, now our MC signal is treated to the exact same EQ curve that the MM cartridges receive. That will correct for the pre-emphasis added in the record making process.
An MC cartridge has no reason to be any brighter than an MM cartridge (properly loaded!). The only thing that should matter is the loading in the preamp, and the alignment in the head shell. If you still have a rising response, there is something wrong somewhere. It may be intentional on the part of the cartridge manufacturer, or with the preamp designer. Of course, reports of more brightness may simply be that the people reporting this had a greater loss in the higher frequencies of their MM cartridges (wouldn't surprise me one bit). What I can tell you is that any good brand of MC cartridge would design the frequency response to be flat. That really may sound bright to many people not used to a truly flat frequency response from their turntable.
Beyond that I have no idea how MC cartridges could be marketed as being "hot" in the high frequencies.
-Chris
Hi Nick,
The current line still uses the VMS principles to the best of my knowledge. I was looking for a VMS-30 E MKII stylus for my VMS-30E MKII cartridge, and another for my VMS-20E MKII that I had bought earlier. Well, they only had the VMS-20E MKII types these days. I refuse to downgrade if I can help it. Ortofon had just released the cartridges sold in the European market into the North American market. That would be the 510 MKII (~VMS-10), 520 MKII (~ VMS-20E MKII), 530 MKII (~VMS-30E MKII) and the 540 MKII (performance improved over the VMS-30E MKII). So, I bought the 540 MKII. I hear Ortofon has gone to colours to designate the model names. I haven't looked into this yet, but I would be surprised if they moved away from the VMS concept. I have to fix the floor before I can use the turntable, and I have not heard my new cartridge yet. I am dying to listen to my albums again.
As for current dealers, try requesting information from the Ortofon site, they should be able to point you to the nearest dealer. http://www.ortofon.com/
It would appear the closest to what I have is the 2M Black, it has been improved yet again. Well, I'm happy with my current cartridge. It's improved over the VMS-30E MKII, what can I say? The new ones are more compliant, so a low mass tonearm is indicated. I'm using a Thorens TD-125 MKII and will also have a 126 MKIII. The 126 has a lower mass tonearm, so the newer cartridges would have to go on that one I think. The 125 might be hard on the suspension. I didn't see any details about construction, I'll ask.
-Chris
TheVariable Magnetic Shunt principle that Ortofon MM cartridges work with also formed part of the model number for years. So you had a VMS series line which included the VMS-10, VMS-20 and VMS-30. Later these models became the "MKII" versions. I have owned all of those in MKII , the VMS-10s came from turntables that were scrapped over the years. A VMS-10 would easily trounce an "Excel" (terrible things) or inexpensive Shure cartridges even. Keep in mind that the Ortofon bodies were all constructed to the same standards expected from the VMS-30E MKII. All you had to do was install the higher end stylus to change the cartridge model.
The current line still uses the VMS principles to the best of my knowledge. I was looking for a VMS-30 E MKII stylus for my VMS-30E MKII cartridge, and another for my VMS-20E MKII that I had bought earlier. Well, they only had the VMS-20E MKII types these days. I refuse to downgrade if I can help it. Ortofon had just released the cartridges sold in the European market into the North American market. That would be the 510 MKII (~VMS-10), 520 MKII (~ VMS-20E MKII), 530 MKII (~VMS-30E MKII) and the 540 MKII (performance improved over the VMS-30E MKII). So, I bought the 540 MKII. I hear Ortofon has gone to colours to designate the model names. I haven't looked into this yet, but I would be surprised if they moved away from the VMS concept. I have to fix the floor before I can use the turntable, and I have not heard my new cartridge yet. I am dying to listen to my albums again.
As for current dealers, try requesting information from the Ortofon site, they should be able to point you to the nearest dealer. http://www.ortofon.com/
It would appear the closest to what I have is the 2M Black, it has been improved yet again. Well, I'm happy with my current cartridge. It's improved over the VMS-30E MKII, what can I say? The new ones are more compliant, so a low mass tonearm is indicated. I'm using a Thorens TD-125 MKII and will also have a 126 MKIII. The 126 has a lower mass tonearm, so the newer cartridges would have to go on that one I think. The 125 might be hard on the suspension. I didn't see any details about construction, I'll ask.
-Chris
Hi Chris,many times a bad matching of cartridge/arm can cause strange problems with brightness.Suspension stiffness(rubber and suspension wire) as well as cantilever length can be responsible of hf rise/drop too.
Re:VMS cartridges,the most serious difference between the VMS-10,20,30 models and all models that followed them,was that the later models do not have a suspension wire.Have a look at the back of your VMS-30 stylus brass holder,and you will see a white epoxy drop holding the inside hidden suspension wire.I think your 540 will not have this,it only has the suspension rubber and the holder is shorter and no longer made of brass.I'm not sure about the new M's though.
Re:VMS cartridges,the most serious difference between the VMS-10,20,30 models and all models that followed them,was that the later models do not have a suspension wire.Have a look at the back of your VMS-30 stylus brass holder,and you will see a white epoxy drop holding the inside hidden suspension wire.I think your 540 will not have this,it only has the suspension rubber and the holder is shorter and no longer made of brass.I'm not sure about the new M's though.
Hi Panicos,
I will, and thank you. I just requested a technical answer to that very question from Ortofon. I do remember seeing something like you described in the older VMS-20 types.
I also want to know if they have retained the VMS principle with the newer products.
I must say that I am impressed that Ortofon keeps styli available for many older series cartridges. That isn't very common.
-Chris
I will, and thank you. I just requested a technical answer to that very question from Ortofon. I do remember seeing something like you described in the older VMS-20 types.
I also want to know if they have retained the VMS principle with the newer products.
I must say that I am impressed that Ortofon keeps styli available for many older series cartridges. That isn't very common.
-Chris
Hi Chris,yes the VMS principle has been retained,still not 100% sure about the M series.LM,OM, and 500 series were all based on the VMS.About the suspension wire on VMS-10,20 &30,the 20&30 had it till their production ceased,while they had removed it from the 10 earlier.The last samples of the VMS-10 did not have it,also the cheaper F,FF models(remember those?)did not have a suspension wire.
Hi Panicos,
Sure I do! I was selling audio at that time. I remember boxes full of Excel 70 cartridges that we supplied free. I think they came 144 to a box or something like that. Back then, audio was a ton of fun. It was very easy to sell a customer an Ortofon cartridge over the "free" ones. Even the Shure didn't stack up against the Ortofon models.
Now, do you remember the Ortofon loudspeakers? They had the smoothest upper bass to low highs of anything. Truly amazing speakers. We ended up buying a pair that lived on a Marantz 2245, then later a Marantz 2265B. My mother still uses the 2265B, the speakers died of old age.
I think I may have an FF model hanging around here somewhere. I did buy a couple Astatic VMS type cartridges too, still have them. I don't know what the compliance is like, but they sounded really good. Better than they had any right to sound.
Now, back on topic, once I get a reply from Ortofon, I'll post the answer. I sure hope they don't get their rep to respond. He's not a bad person, but he is not a technical type.
I figured I would take a picture of some of these cartridges as a few are not popular. On the left we have a new Ortofon 540 MKII, then an Astatic 2501 and on the right, a 2500 - top of the line. It came in a universal head shell, and that is the original. I did use it on my Marantz 6200 and then a 6300 at the time. In the foreground, there is an Ortofon FF15XE MKII. Bring back memories Panicos?
Each and every one of these sounded smoother than most other cartridges around. I already had the Ortofon VMS-20E MKII before any of these came into my life. That means I was really surprised when these inexpensive Astatic cartridges showed as well as they did. I knew they were supposed to use the VMS principle (they said), so I bought some for myself. They each served and died at the hands of my kids as they grew up. My Ortofon cartridges survived in hiding. I'll say one thing though, those Astatics were not as good, but they were very easy to listen to compared to everything else out there! The 2500 is still good, and it's the only one I know of that is still around. I think I'll hang on to it, just because it is rare and it sounded really good. These were to be Astatic's entry into the MM, higher quality field. Too bad they were sold right around that time. The cartridges were never given a fair shot at the market. The line started at the 2503, 2502, 2501 and 2500 going from least expensive on up.
Does anyone else know of any Astatic cartridges hiding around anywhere? If you find a good one, give it a listen. It's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good for an inexpensive cartridge.
-Chris
Sure I do! I was selling audio at that time. I remember boxes full of Excel 70 cartridges that we supplied free. I think they came 144 to a box or something like that. Back then, audio was a ton of fun. It was very easy to sell a customer an Ortofon cartridge over the "free" ones. Even the Shure didn't stack up against the Ortofon models.
Now, do you remember the Ortofon loudspeakers? They had the smoothest upper bass to low highs of anything. Truly amazing speakers. We ended up buying a pair that lived on a Marantz 2245, then later a Marantz 2265B. My mother still uses the 2265B, the speakers died of old age.
I think I may have an FF model hanging around here somewhere. I did buy a couple Astatic VMS type cartridges too, still have them. I don't know what the compliance is like, but they sounded really good. Better than they had any right to sound.
Now, back on topic, once I get a reply from Ortofon, I'll post the answer. I sure hope they don't get their rep to respond. He's not a bad person, but he is not a technical type.
I figured I would take a picture of some of these cartridges as a few are not popular. On the left we have a new Ortofon 540 MKII, then an Astatic 2501 and on the right, a 2500 - top of the line. It came in a universal head shell, and that is the original. I did use it on my Marantz 6200 and then a 6300 at the time. In the foreground, there is an Ortofon FF15XE MKII. Bring back memories Panicos?
Each and every one of these sounded smoother than most other cartridges around. I already had the Ortofon VMS-20E MKII before any of these came into my life. That means I was really surprised when these inexpensive Astatic cartridges showed as well as they did. I knew they were supposed to use the VMS principle (they said), so I bought some for myself. They each served and died at the hands of my kids as they grew up. My Ortofon cartridges survived in hiding. I'll say one thing though, those Astatics were not as good, but they were very easy to listen to compared to everything else out there! The 2500 is still good, and it's the only one I know of that is still around. I think I'll hang on to it, just because it is rare and it sounded really good. These were to be Astatic's entry into the MM, higher quality field. Too bad they were sold right around that time. The cartridges were never given a fair shot at the market. The line started at the 2503, 2502, 2501 and 2500 going from least expensive on up.
Does anyone else know of any Astatic cartridges hiding around anywhere? If you find a good one, give it a listen. It's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good for an inexpensive cartridge.
-Chris
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Hi Panicos,
I honestly don't thing any styli were ever imported. It wouldn't make sense financially. The cartridges in bulk were far less expensive than parts would ever be.
costs, but I may buy a couple if they aren't expensive. I was instantly spoiled when I heard the VMS-30E MKII though. Going back is difficult.
So, what do you like using these days?
-Chris
Yes, I'm afraid that you also know those things. They were intended to make noise until a better cartridge was bought. It's amazing how many people kept them. I was asked for replacement styli no matter where I worked. Those things just kept resurfacing no matter what.
I honestly don't thing any styli were ever imported. It wouldn't make sense financially. The cartridges in bulk were far less expensive than parts would ever be.
You know, those were a very good cartridge. Excellent value for the money too. I don't know how much the replacement "needle"
costs, but I may buy a couple if they aren't expensive. I was instantly spoiled when I heard the VMS-30E MKII though. Going back is difficult.So, what do you like using these days?
-Chris
Yes the VMS30II was better.Remember,there was no VMS30 MK 1.
I have a few shures too,V15Type II & III with original and SAS styli.I like both with SAS styli and I use the III more on a TD160/SME series II.My usual cartridge is a Benz-micro LP Ebony,a low output MC with a very well balanced smooth sound and unusually good tracking for a MC.
I have a few shures too,V15Type II & III with original and SAS styli.I like both with SAS styli and I use the III more on a TD160/SME series II.My usual cartridge is a Benz-micro LP Ebony,a low output MC with a very well balanced smooth sound and unusually good tracking for a MC.
Hi Panicos,
I wasn't aware there was no MKI version of the VMS-30E. It appeared as the MKII and I didn't think too much about it. I figured the boss finally laid down enough $$ to bring the upper cartridges in. I was but a salesman. Much like a mushroom in the dark, eating ....
I do remember trying the first production run of AKG's K8E. It was far too compliant and kept bottoming out. It was a really unhappy design until they stiffened it up. That one worked well, sounded good, but the VMS-20E MKII still seemed to sound better. More relaxed and deeper bass - cleaner. Still, the AKG K8E (P8E?) still had it's following. It was a very good cartridge I think.
-Chris
I wasn't aware there was no MKI version of the VMS-30E. It appeared as the MKII and I didn't think too much about it. I figured the boss finally laid down enough $$ to bring the upper cartridges in. I was but a salesman. Much like a mushroom in the dark, eating ....
Hmmm, I found them both "hard" or "brittle" sounding. I never could get past that characteristic, especially after hearing an Ortofon.
Nice choice.
I haven't seen too many MC cartridges that didn't track well. They had low moving mass to start, and that was the entire point of an MC design, wasn't it?
I do remember trying the first production run of AKG's K8E. It was far too compliant and kept bottoming out. It was a really unhappy design until they stiffened it up. That one worked well, sounded good, but the VMS-20E MKII still seemed to sound better. More relaxed and deeper bass - cleaner. Still, the AKG K8E (P8E?) still had it's following. It was a very good cartridge I think.
-Chris
I find the shure type II smoother/warmer than the III.Problem with both with original styli is that suspension rubbers are not in the condition they were when new.This can cause some problems with damping and groove stability leading to some hf rise and bass bloating.These points are "cured" by the fresh suspension of the SAS and their boron + aluminium skin cantilever.The SAS tip seems to help too,being a more modern Line contact type.True.ortofon had a smoother sound the reason why both the VMS20EII & 30MKII were so popular.Do you think there are replacement styli for them now?
I haven't had any experience with AKG's.
I haven't had any experience with AKG's.
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