MC cartridges are much lower impedance than MM, so if you want to tame a treble peak with capacitance, you need to use much bigger capacitors.
For an MM cartridge, somewhere in the region of 100 to say 300pF is typically correct.
An MC cartridge is usually only a few Ohms, so you need to use values like 100nF up to as much as couple of microfarads to have much effect anywhere near the audio band.
For an MM cartridge, somewhere in the region of 100 to say 300pF is typically correct.
An MC cartridge is usually only a few Ohms, so you need to use values like 100nF up to as much as couple of microfarads to have much effect anywhere near the audio band.
Most Thorens "fanatics" say that rega arms are not a good match for TD-125,150,160.If this is the case I would recommend to consider a more up market cartridge mm or mc,after you finish your tonearm project.I would agree on the mismatch comments,as I had personal experience with a TD-150 and 160.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents on the RB300 on Thorens TD125. I have had a thorens TD125 mkII with SAEC carbon arm which I decided to upgrade to a new Rega RB300, and found it was a decidedly backward move. This is a fine arm, i just feel it's not well suited to the lighter mass floating suspension design of this thorens. I have this same arm on my Acoustic Solid turntable and love it, but on the Thorens it was simply a poor match. The best arm I have heard on the Thorens is the SME 3012 with knife bearing upgrade. It needs to be given a good cleaning typically and a good refurbishing in general, but is a perfect match on that turntable. The resonant frequency with the Rega is just too high because of its mass as compared with the SME.
I can't comment on the airbearing arm you are making, but the ones I have heard did not sound superior to the SME in my opinion. The Air Bearing I heard was the Advanced Analogue MG-1 I borrowed from a friend. Again, I think it was just a poor match on the Thorens, I'm sure it was a fine arm on his VPI. I also tried it on my Acoustic Solid, and if I had the spare money and need, would upgrade my RB300 to this in a heart beat.
As for Cartridge, again, matching is so important, and you will simply not find a good match with that arm on that table. If you can borrow and try and SME arm, or pick up a used one cheap enough, I think you will be surprised. I haven't heard the cartridges you speak of, but I have used a Sumiko Blue point Special (poor match), Grado Statement Platinum (good match), Statement Sonata and Reference Sonata (also a good match), a supex MC of unknown model, and a shelter 301. The MC cartridges all required very good arm matching, proper loading, and careful setup in order to not sound bright or harsh in my setup. The Grado's are the most forgiving in that regard, and if they were a bit more resolving and a little less mushy sounding, I would consider them the best compromise cartridge made. With rock, especially the more modern rock, I find the Grado glosses over the finer details and has trouble keeping up with the music (poor recording quality doesn't help any). I've not heard the SPU's, and have concern that those who recomend them listen to far more classical than I do (and conversely, far less rock), but I have heard that is a great match on the Thorens table.
I can't comment on the airbearing arm you are making, but the ones I have heard did not sound superior to the SME in my opinion. The Air Bearing I heard was the Advanced Analogue MG-1 I borrowed from a friend. Again, I think it was just a poor match on the Thorens, I'm sure it was a fine arm on his VPI. I also tried it on my Acoustic Solid, and if I had the spare money and need, would upgrade my RB300 to this in a heart beat.
As for Cartridge, again, matching is so important, and you will simply not find a good match with that arm on that table. If you can borrow and try and SME arm, or pick up a used one cheap enough, I think you will be surprised. I haven't heard the cartridges you speak of, but I have used a Sumiko Blue point Special (poor match), Grado Statement Platinum (good match), Statement Sonata and Reference Sonata (also a good match), a supex MC of unknown model, and a shelter 301. The MC cartridges all required very good arm matching, proper loading, and careful setup in order to not sound bright or harsh in my setup. The Grado's are the most forgiving in that regard, and if they were a bit more resolving and a little less mushy sounding, I would consider them the best compromise cartridge made. With rock, especially the more modern rock, I find the Grado glosses over the finer details and has trouble keeping up with the music (poor recording quality doesn't help any). I've not heard the SPU's, and have concern that those who recomend them listen to far more classical than I do (and conversely, far less rock), but I have heard that is a great match on the Thorens table.
Yes,the SME would be the obvious choice for the 125.Together they make real music,even with "difficult" mc's.I will never forget many years ago,when with a friend we tried a Linn ASAK on a TD125/SME 3009 Series 2 for fun.Shockingly good,better than when it was on LP12/ITTOK !!!!!SPU's have great power and slam at the bass,and I find them very good for rock too.
I also agree that finding a good cartridge match for the 125/rega will not be easy,or,correct for that matter.
I also agree that finding a good cartridge match for the 125/rega will not be easy,or,correct for that matter.
SME the rega rb300 and pendulum supended decks
Hi guys
I had a Royce turntable 4 years ago that came with a linn basik arm.
Definitely a linn clone except the chassis(sub chassis) was made from plywood not pressed steel. I still have it tucked away somewhere but stupidly i sold the basik arm and put on an rb300.. bad move.
So stuck with the rb300 I keep thinking.. this arm may not suit the suspended decks so much. I will keep an eye out for a 3009 but I must say that the at150lmx sounds just dandy on my setup currently. It is warm, detailed tracks like a McLarenwith no inner groove distortion, by far the best of the many cartridges i tried.
I looked again at the laardegard air bearing arm , the terminator to be exact which is an upside down version.. but i cant help wonder if I just score an sme or a basic?
In any case the 125 may not be the difinitive turntable.. i have the diy bug and rather than an exoskeleton type of build perhaps a pendulum suspended deck with a subchassis ala ar/linn/125mk2 but with the the subchassis being suspended from 3 points outside the platter so i can level the bugger with the deck on its playing surface and not on a jig.. soon as you move the turntable the deck goes out.. by far the biggest compromise in a pendulum deck.
The deck i like listening to the most?... the ar i have with the original arm running an at440ml..Its really musical go figure
Nick
Hi guys
I had a Royce turntable 4 years ago that came with a linn basik arm.
Definitely a linn clone except the chassis(sub chassis) was made from plywood not pressed steel. I still have it tucked away somewhere but stupidly i sold the basik arm and put on an rb300.. bad move.
So stuck with the rb300 I keep thinking.. this arm may not suit the suspended decks so much. I will keep an eye out for a 3009 but I must say that the at150lmx sounds just dandy on my setup currently. It is warm, detailed tracks like a McLarenwith no inner groove distortion, by far the best of the many cartridges i tried.
I looked again at the laardegard air bearing arm , the terminator to be exact which is an upside down version.. but i cant help wonder if I just score an sme or a basic?
In any case the 125 may not be the difinitive turntable.. i have the diy bug and rather than an exoskeleton type of build perhaps a pendulum suspended deck with a subchassis ala ar/linn/125mk2 but with the the subchassis being suspended from 3 points outside the platter so i can level the bugger with the deck on its playing surface and not on a jig.. soon as you move the turntable the deck goes out.. by far the biggest compromise in a pendulum deck.
The deck i like listening to the most?... the ar i have with the original arm running an at440ml..Its really musical go figure
Nick
Hey Ray
Ray
Before ditching the OC9 perhaps messing with the capacitance/ loading may well yeild dividends for you. Maybe even try another phono stage? (or borrow one)
I dont know if I would ever bother with a MC cart again to be frank which I know will upset the MC boys no end and I do apologise meaning no disrespect.
I found mc;s to be generally quite irritating not just bright but harsh in a few frequency bands, where say guitars live and female vocals.
I have read up on the hagerman articles looked at the pros and cons of transformers vs jfets vs tubes as step up devices and built a lot of phono stages , trialled a few step up trannys, 2 tube head amps and i just didnt like them.. none of them.. maybe i am very sensitive to the rising treble rsponse, supra sonics and their harmonics etc or maybe the harmonics are emanating far lower and presenting in the mid band or the ringing i often read about with mc's I dont really know.. but once i changed to the MM at's.. it all went away, I just couldnt believe it.
I tried the 440ml on a pramp i had deploying a 12ax7/12 au7.. well made by a friend.. it has loads of siderial capacitors , circuit boards, voltage regulation and it sounded terrible.. changing to my new preamp, well the transformation is astounding.
I really believe the fine line/ micro ridge stylii being used in some MMs(the at440MLA, 150mlx, Ortofon black) have really upped the ante in the MM stakes and you have to love the replacable stylus on them....
So i have at this point ended my quest for a cartridge but will ponder the arm/turntable once more.. I am by no means a Thorens fanatic but the best decks always seem to be suspended (Xerxes, gyrodec, linn) so I figure there is something in this.
This diy community will no doubt have many different points of view on this topic but for me after 3 years of messing with stuff, building things, trialling so many different combinations... i have got my system sounding the best I have ever heard vinyl... the diy turntable awaits
Good luck Ray.. do try a few things before you ditch the oc9 and maybe just risk buying the at440mla and if you dont like it resell it (let me know how much you might want for it). Do mess with the vta if you can as well ,as that has an influence on things l. I think your arm at 16 gms has a similar mass to the rb300 and if it does the oc9 can handle your arm no prob..
Interesting that the rb300 and all its variants has quite a resonance if the "HIFI world graphs" are anything to go by.. perhaps the project 9c arm (carbon fibre)better dampens things..
Nick
Ray
Before ditching the OC9 perhaps messing with the capacitance/ loading may well yeild dividends for you. Maybe even try another phono stage? (or borrow one)
I dont know if I would ever bother with a MC cart again to be frank which I know will upset the MC boys no end and I do apologise meaning no disrespect.
I found mc;s to be generally quite irritating not just bright but harsh in a few frequency bands, where say guitars live and female vocals.
I have read up on the hagerman articles looked at the pros and cons of transformers vs jfets vs tubes as step up devices and built a lot of phono stages , trialled a few step up trannys, 2 tube head amps and i just didnt like them.. none of them.. maybe i am very sensitive to the rising treble rsponse, supra sonics and their harmonics etc or maybe the harmonics are emanating far lower and presenting in the mid band or the ringing i often read about with mc's I dont really know.. but once i changed to the MM at's.. it all went away, I just couldnt believe it.
I tried the 440ml on a pramp i had deploying a 12ax7/12 au7.. well made by a friend.. it has loads of siderial capacitors , circuit boards, voltage regulation and it sounded terrible.. changing to my new preamp, well the transformation is astounding.
I really believe the fine line/ micro ridge stylii being used in some MMs(the at440MLA, 150mlx, Ortofon black) have really upped the ante in the MM stakes and you have to love the replacable stylus on them....
So i have at this point ended my quest for a cartridge but will ponder the arm/turntable once more.. I am by no means a Thorens fanatic but the best decks always seem to be suspended (Xerxes, gyrodec, linn) so I figure there is something in this.
This diy community will no doubt have many different points of view on this topic but for me after 3 years of messing with stuff, building things, trialling so many different combinations... i have got my system sounding the best I have ever heard vinyl... the diy turntable awaits
Good luck Ray.. do try a few things before you ditch the oc9 and maybe just risk buying the at440mla and if you dont like it resell it (let me know how much you might want for it). Do mess with the vta if you can as well ,as that has an influence on things l. I think your arm at 16 gms has a similar mass to the rb300 and if it does the oc9 can handle your arm no prob..
Interesting that the rb300 and all its variants has quite a resonance if the "HIFI world graphs" are anything to go by.. perhaps the project 9c arm (carbon fibre)better dampens things..
Nick
Thanks Nick....
Hey Nick,
I contacted AT Customer service. They told me that for $157.00 I could send in my OC9 for a new OC9ML/II Cartridge, its called their retip program. So, a brand new OC9 with the improved cantilever, etc...for my cartridge and $157.00 I then asked them if I could apply the credit towards another AT cartridge such as the AT150mlx...or the AT440mlx...but they said NO, because they would be competing too mmuch with their Retail Sellers of AT Cartridges. So, I would have to go with a Brand New OC9 with the ML stylus and Gold Plated Boron Cantilever.
I did check the Arm/Cartridge Matching Database Site, and my Tonearm, at 16 Grams effective Mass does have a nice Resonant Frequency Response with many good budget cartridges including the AT150MLX and the AT440MLX...along with many Ortofon's and Dynavector, Denon, and Benz Micro. However those begin to get out of the price range. AT seems to have the fairest prices for the quality to match price. I am just curious what the sound differences would be, between the AT cartridges, such as MC OC9, and MM 150mlx or 440mlx...wondered if the MM cartridges might have the same detail as the OC9 but be warmer and lack the brightness or thinness of the OC9 in my opinion. I will try to mess with the capacitance and VTA once again before making a decision. The High Output MC by Ortofon called the MC3 Turbo on paper is a perfect match for my arm, and according to Ortofon is an excellent Rock Music cartridge, I have been considering that also, but have no experience with Ortofon's in the Budget line, either MM or MC cartridges. Thanks for your input Nick.....Ray
Hey Nick,
I contacted AT Customer service. They told me that for $157.00 I could send in my OC9 for a new OC9ML/II Cartridge, its called their retip program. So, a brand new OC9 with the improved cantilever, etc...for my cartridge and $157.00 I then asked them if I could apply the credit towards another AT cartridge such as the AT150mlx...or the AT440mlx...but they said NO, because they would be competing too mmuch with their Retail Sellers of AT Cartridges. So, I would have to go with a Brand New OC9 with the ML stylus and Gold Plated Boron Cantilever.
I did check the Arm/Cartridge Matching Database Site, and my Tonearm, at 16 Grams effective Mass does have a nice Resonant Frequency Response with many good budget cartridges including the AT150MLX and the AT440MLX...along with many Ortofon's and Dynavector, Denon, and Benz Micro. However those begin to get out of the price range. AT seems to have the fairest prices for the quality to match price. I am just curious what the sound differences would be, between the AT cartridges, such as MC OC9, and MM 150mlx or 440mlx...wondered if the MM cartridges might have the same detail as the OC9 but be warmer and lack the brightness or thinness of the OC9 in my opinion. I will try to mess with the capacitance and VTA once again before making a decision. The High Output MC by Ortofon called the MC3 Turbo on paper is a perfect match for my arm, and according to Ortofon is an excellent Rock Music cartridge, I have been considering that also, but have no experience with Ortofon's in the Budget line, either MM or MC cartridges. Thanks for your input Nick.....Ray
HO MC's
Hey Ray.
I love what things say "on paper" .. On paper I can be made to look like Arnold Scharwsneger in his hey day but in reality I am a little less than that.
If you listen to rock, why not try a MM? My understanding of high output mc's is that they can sound a little harsh/brash... I would be considering the denon ones not the ortofon thats for sure.. I still think one of the MM's out there may give you what you need.
I can assure you that neither the 440 or 150mlx have brightness or thinness in my sytem.. man they have bass and lots of it with a smooth presentation.. low surface noise and lots of detail and one less amplifying chain to boot as they have sufficient output to drive my riaa phno stage.
I am hesitant to convince you to buy acartridge as I am wary that it may not match your system.. what about one of the budget AT95e? and see if you like that and then you can maybe buy the 150mlx?
If you have messed with vta already then dont bother.. since you hadnt mentioned it, ithought you should try it at least,
Let me know how you go
Nick
Hey Ray.
I love what things say "on paper" .. On paper I can be made to look like Arnold Scharwsneger in his hey day but in reality I am a little less than that.
If you listen to rock, why not try a MM? My understanding of high output mc's is that they can sound a little harsh/brash... I would be considering the denon ones not the ortofon thats for sure.. I still think one of the MM's out there may give you what you need.
I can assure you that neither the 440 or 150mlx have brightness or thinness in my sytem.. man they have bass and lots of it with a smooth presentation.. low surface noise and lots of detail and one less amplifying chain to boot as they have sufficient output to drive my riaa phno stage.
I am hesitant to convince you to buy acartridge as I am wary that it may not match your system.. what about one of the budget AT95e? and see if you like that and then you can maybe buy the 150mlx?
If you have messed with vta already then dont bother.. since you hadnt mentioned it, ithought you should try it at least,
Let me know how you go
Nick
There is a budget
Hi panikos
The cost of the benz which is a cart of good repute is 700 US which i think is out of rays range.
I dont think for one minute the AT95e is the last word in mm carts but it is a great budget cartridge and will answer rays questions about his system sounding thin etc. It is merely a low cost experiment on wether a mm may be his answer for his system and tastes in music and its presentation.
My experiences re MC's have alerted me to the fact that cartridges will either fit into a system with respect to loading, capacitance, inductance of the phono stage and then we have arm mass, music styles and I cant justify buying a 1500 dollar australian MC because it gets good reviews. I did this with the rondo red and sold it within a week, as i had been down that road for 18 months prior. For me it was the mc's that where the problem. Yes they where all ortofons so perhaps it is the brand not the type of cartridge.
Ray may well find one of the denon (110 or 160) to his likeing but there is also a chance that he wont, then there's the zu dl103 which heaps rave about and that suits a high mass arm.. they are expensive experiments cartridges arent they?
So back to the original dilema.. can his system gain some weight and warmth and still keep into his budget?
At least my suggestion will guide him as to wether mms may be what he prefers (given his music)
I can certianly attest to the luscious sound of the AT's in my system.. they sound wonderful but perhaps lack the snob value of brand and type of cartridge..
And then there is the law of infintesimal returns.. how much better can I make my system sound and for how much money?
Is a 700 dollar cart 7 times better than a 100 dollar one assuming you could quantify the parameters? I know that not t be the case.
It is important to remember that i absolutely hated the at440 in my first preamp, i couldnt listen to it for more than 10 minutes so i literally popped it in a draw for 3 years... Then out of sheer serendipity, I thought I would bung it on my current system as I had enough of the Ortofon MC i was running.... and I havent been happier with a cart than the 150ml . it has a microline stylus, it has a boron cantilever that is gold coated, it has twin magnets and a mu metal shield.... does that make it bad? Or will many discount mms generically because how could a cheap cart sound anywhere near as good as ones that cost nearly as much as a used car?
If i win a lot of money.. Clearaudio master reference/ air bearing tangential arm/ Ongaku amp no probs but for now what i got works for me. Thats the funny thing about audio.. its all opinions and impressions, not hard science a lot of the time. The effects of psycho acoustics is a far reaching phenomenon which is not fully understood and often overlooked. I use my ears and it works for me
NIck
Hi panikos
The cost of the benz which is a cart of good repute is 700 US which i think is out of rays range.
I dont think for one minute the AT95e is the last word in mm carts but it is a great budget cartridge and will answer rays questions about his system sounding thin etc. It is merely a low cost experiment on wether a mm may be his answer for his system and tastes in music and its presentation.
My experiences re MC's have alerted me to the fact that cartridges will either fit into a system with respect to loading, capacitance, inductance of the phono stage and then we have arm mass, music styles and I cant justify buying a 1500 dollar australian MC because it gets good reviews. I did this with the rondo red and sold it within a week, as i had been down that road for 18 months prior. For me it was the mc's that where the problem. Yes they where all ortofons so perhaps it is the brand not the type of cartridge.
Ray may well find one of the denon (110 or 160) to his likeing but there is also a chance that he wont, then there's the zu dl103 which heaps rave about and that suits a high mass arm.. they are expensive experiments cartridges arent they?
So back to the original dilema.. can his system gain some weight and warmth and still keep into his budget?
At least my suggestion will guide him as to wether mms may be what he prefers (given his music)
I can certianly attest to the luscious sound of the AT's in my system.. they sound wonderful but perhaps lack the snob value of brand and type of cartridge..
And then there is the law of infintesimal returns.. how much better can I make my system sound and for how much money?
Is a 700 dollar cart 7 times better than a 100 dollar one assuming you could quantify the parameters? I know that not t be the case.
It is important to remember that i absolutely hated the at440 in my first preamp, i couldnt listen to it for more than 10 minutes so i literally popped it in a draw for 3 years... Then out of sheer serendipity, I thought I would bung it on my current system as I had enough of the Ortofon MC i was running.... and I havent been happier with a cart than the 150ml . it has a microline stylus, it has a boron cantilever that is gold coated, it has twin magnets and a mu metal shield.... does that make it bad? Or will many discount mms generically because how could a cheap cart sound anywhere near as good as ones that cost nearly as much as a used car?
If i win a lot of money.. Clearaudio master reference/ air bearing tangential arm/ Ongaku amp no probs but for now what i got works for me. Thats the funny thing about audio.. its all opinions and impressions, not hard science a lot of the time. The effects of psycho acoustics is a far reaching phenomenon which is not fully understood and often overlooked. I use my ears and it works for me
NIck
duderduderini,I had no intention to offend anyone with my last post,and if I did,then I apologize.It is just that experimenting with something cheap(and nasty imo like the 95)I don't thing it would help much,as in the end it will be a waste of money.If say Ray doesn't like the 95,then what?Try a cheap ortofon...etc...?
MMs have the "advantage"of needing just the correct capacitance,while with MCs you have to play with impedance too.That MCs are harsher than MMs is more of a generalization and is not a rule.I mentioned the ACE as an example,there are others too closer to Ray's budged,like Benz MC Gold/Silver,Dynavector 10X5,and of course Denons.Nothing wrong with anything you said,it is just that today,it is almost well known that certain makers have certain sound signatures don't you agree?Ray's VPI/Zeta is a combination that deserves the best possible,and saving money from even low cost experiments,will help him get something better in the end.That was the idea of my post.As for psychoacoustics,I agree with you.I too use my ears to judge and works fine.In the end of the day,it will be you and what you buy/like,so use reviews very carefully.Reviwers say strange things
One reviewer might have said "....the best I have heard..." a milion times...and counting.....
MMs have the "advantage"of needing just the correct capacitance,while with MCs you have to play with impedance too.That MCs are harsher than MMs is more of a generalization and is not a rule.I mentioned the ACE as an example,there are others too closer to Ray's budged,like Benz MC Gold/Silver,Dynavector 10X5,and of course Denons.Nothing wrong with anything you said,it is just that today,it is almost well known that certain makers have certain sound signatures don't you agree?Ray's VPI/Zeta is a combination that deserves the best possible,and saving money from even low cost experiments,will help him get something better in the end.That was the idea of my post.As for psychoacoustics,I agree with you.I too use my ears to judge and works fine.In the end of the day,it will be you and what you buy/like,so use reviews very carefully.Reviwers say strange things
One reviewer might have said "....the best I have heard..." a milion times...and counting..... Hey Panikos
Hi panikos.. None taken whatsoever, I know you to be a contributor of sound knowledge on this site and i was only trying to get the point across that buying any cartridge can be a gamble and if ray found a MM more to his liking he could buy a more expensive one.. in the same brand maybe. My line of thought is that maybe he too, may not like mc's.. Many speak glowingly of the OC9 and many can it.. I dont doubt any of the carts you mention as being high quality.. not at all but what if they dont cut the mustard with him... Its frustrating to spend money without a dividend hence the cheap mm experiment.. maybe he could try an ortofon at 40 dollars in aust it would answer a few questions.. its a pity loaner carts are not available.
I had a 95e cart on a grace 707 / linn and it didnt sound that bad. No rolls royce mind you but i have heard worse.
Here are some reviews of the at0c9
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/anal...audio-technica/at-oc9/PRD_121385_5823crx.aspx
It seems they are a bit thin in the bass department. They require a loading of 20 ohms... I wonder what step up device Ray is using.
Panikos is it right to assume then that HOMC's may exhibit the weak points of both types of cartridge?
In any case I am sure we have confused Ray even further. Please understand that this is healthy debate and I would defer to your experience in any case.. Its just that I am trying to save Ray from the fruitless expensive journey I took.
If he has a medium/ high mass arm what are your thoughts on the 103 dL? In zu modified form?
Thanks
Nick
Hi panikos.. None taken whatsoever, I know you to be a contributor of sound knowledge on this site and i was only trying to get the point across that buying any cartridge can be a gamble and if ray found a MM more to his liking he could buy a more expensive one.. in the same brand maybe. My line of thought is that maybe he too, may not like mc's.. Many speak glowingly of the OC9 and many can it.. I dont doubt any of the carts you mention as being high quality.. not at all but what if they dont cut the mustard with him... Its frustrating to spend money without a dividend hence the cheap mm experiment.. maybe he could try an ortofon at 40 dollars in aust it would answer a few questions.. its a pity loaner carts are not available.
I had a 95e cart on a grace 707 / linn and it didnt sound that bad. No rolls royce mind you but i have heard worse.
Here are some reviews of the at0c9
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/anal...audio-technica/at-oc9/PRD_121385_5823crx.aspx
It seems they are a bit thin in the bass department. They require a loading of 20 ohms... I wonder what step up device Ray is using.
Panikos is it right to assume then that HOMC's may exhibit the weak points of both types of cartridge?
In any case I am sure we have confused Ray even further. Please understand that this is healthy debate and I would defer to your experience in any case.. Its just that I am trying to save Ray from the fruitless expensive journey I took.
If he has a medium/ high mass arm what are your thoughts on the 103 dL? In zu modified form?
Thanks
Nick
Hi sreten,I know you like the 95 from previous posts By nasty I mean it sounds a bit dirty,and aggressive and I understand this is not what Ray seems to be after.Weren't you surprised I have not mentioned the MP110 this time? It is because I think we are looking for a more refined low cost cartridge,but also one for a high quality turntable.Besides,I believe the AT95 "has no right "to complain about so many good tonearms around,not to mention record damage these low cost cartridges may cause in the long run.Few damaged records and it is not so good value any more.I am aware of all the good points of the 95 believe me,but I also know that overdoing some things at the expense of others,in the case of the 95 at the expense of refinement,and better balance,is not welcome at least for me.I know that when you are on a budged there are not many things you can do,but one thing one can do is patience for another month or so to climb that extra step
duderduderini,I have added some more cartridges to the list,not with the intention to confuse Ray,but to give some more options to consider,and if possible to listen before buying.My comments of more refined and smooth sound regarding these recommendations,are purely based on personal experience compared to the AT95/OC9,and they can be used as a guide with much care,as my tastes might be different than yours ,sreten's or Ray's.I believe that our opinions are helpful,because,as you very rightfully said,cartridge loans are not possible...well not always
As for HOMC's,well,if they are not carefully designed,then yes,they might exhibit the weak points of both types of cartridges.Personally I don't use HOMC's,but I have both LOMC and MM types.I expect the DL103 to be a very good match for the Zeta arm and I would also expect a full,weighty and dynamic sound,with a slight reservation of a slight hardness that sometimes the 103 has.I had no experience with the zu modification,so I cannot comment on that one.
By nasty I mean it sounds a bit dirty,and aggressive and I understand this is not what Ray seems to be after.Weren't you surprised I have not mentioned the MP110 this time? It is because I think we are looking for a more refined low cost cartridge,but also one for a high quality turntable.Besides,I believe the AT95 "has no right "to complain about so many good tonearms around,not to mention record damage these low cost cartridges may cause in the long run.Few damaged records and it is not so good value any more.I am aware of all the good points of the 95 believe me,but I also know that overdoing some things at the expense of others,in the case of the 95 at the expense of refinement,and better balance,is not welcome at least for me.I know that when you are on a budged there are not many things you can do,but one thing one can do is patience for another month or so to climb that extra step duderduderini,I have added some more cartridges to the list,not with the intention to confuse Ray,but to give some more options to consider,and if possible to listen before buying.My comments of more refined and smooth sound regarding these recommendations,are purely based on personal experience compared to the AT95/OC9,and they can be used as a guide with much care,as my tastes might be different than yours ,sreten's or Ray's.I believe that our opinions are helpful,because,as you very rightfully said,cartridge loans are not possible...well not always
As for HOMC's,well,if they are not carefully designed,then yes,they might exhibit the weak points of both types of cartridges.Personally I don't use HOMC's,but I have both LOMC and MM types.I expect the DL103 to be a very good match for the Zeta arm and I would also expect a full,weighty and dynamic sound,with a slight reservation of a slight hardness that sometimes the 103 has.I had no experience with the zu modification,so I cannot comment on that one.
at 150mlx now $360.00 Us
We may have to have a rethink on rays budget given the price just went up.. I cant exactly remember but i think i paid 259 for mine from lp gear. Now they have gone up $100 !!! This kind of puts in in a different league now and assuming the other carts mentioned havent done the same thing, then the choices have narrowed in the at range.
With that new asking price there are 4 benz micros for similar figures as well as the ortofon bronze.. I wonder if the 2m series didnt motivate AT to increase the price of their similar micro line mm offering (Bronze is 389).
Then theres the denons from the 103 though to the 301, a few nagaokas, in fact the $350 dollar mark opens up a whole new world of options and probably just sunk the 150 mlx as indecent value for money.
So Panikos methinks the ball game has changed now.
Good thing I bought mine just before xmas'
Nick
We may have to have a rethink on rays budget given the price just went up.. I cant exactly remember but i think i paid 259 for mine from lp gear. Now they have gone up $100 !!! This kind of puts in in a different league now and assuming the other carts mentioned havent done the same thing, then the choices have narrowed in the at range.
With that new asking price there are 4 benz micros for similar figures as well as the ortofon bronze.. I wonder if the 2m series didnt motivate AT to increase the price of their similar micro line mm offering (Bronze is 389).
Then theres the denons from the 103 though to the 301, a few nagaokas, in fact the $350 dollar mark opens up a whole new world of options and probably just sunk the 150 mlx as indecent value for money.
So Panikos methinks the ball game has changed now.
Good thing I bought mine just before xmas'
Nick
My Equipment
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the effort...I have a VPI HW19 Mk.IV Table with the ZETA arm, at 16 Grams Effective Mass. I am running this into an Audio Research SP9 Preamp, the SP9 has 67 DB of Gain, and had no problems driving the AT-OC9 at .4mv output. I hope that by telling you guys my Preamp helps matters. The Budget is in the $300.00 range here is USA. I was looking into the Ortofon MC3 Turbo......Im told its on the warmer side of Neutral, though I never heard one. The MC-3 Turbo is a HOMC at 3.3 mv it also has a Nude Fine Line Stylus, not the cheaper Elyptical of the MC-1 Turbo which is the Cheaper of the 2 Ortofons. I am told that Denon's tend to be a bit bright, but I never heard one of them either. As I said, the Grado Signature TLZ I have used is warmer, but lacking in High's and detail of the OC9, so I was looking for a cartridge someplace in the middle of the Grado Signature TLZ and the AT-OC9. The Grado is considered a Moving Iron. Both are great cartridges, but I wanted to find one in the middle, more Bass, but also keeping the dynamoics and detail, as well as good tracking, the OC9 has excellent Tracking, better than the Grado Signature. Grado has a very lush Midrange. Hope this helps you guys with suggestions....Thanks, Ray
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the effort...I have a VPI HW19 Mk.IV Table with the ZETA arm, at 16 Grams Effective Mass. I am running this into an Audio Research SP9 Preamp, the SP9 has 67 DB of Gain, and had no problems driving the AT-OC9 at .4mv output. I hope that by telling you guys my Preamp helps matters. The Budget is in the $300.00 range here is USA. I was looking into the Ortofon MC3 Turbo......Im told its on the warmer side of Neutral, though I never heard one. The MC-3 Turbo is a HOMC at 3.3 mv it also has a Nude Fine Line Stylus, not the cheaper Elyptical of the MC-1 Turbo which is the Cheaper of the 2 Ortofons. I am told that Denon's tend to be a bit bright, but I never heard one of them either. As I said, the Grado Signature TLZ I have used is warmer, but lacking in High's and detail of the OC9, so I was looking for a cartridge someplace in the middle of the Grado Signature TLZ and the AT-OC9. The Grado is considered a Moving Iron. Both are great cartridges, but I wanted to find one in the middle, more Bass, but also keeping the dynamoics and detail, as well as good tracking, the OC9 has excellent Tracking, better than the Grado Signature. Grado has a very lush Midrange. Hope this helps you guys with suggestions....Thanks, Ray
Yes,the MC25FL would have been a very good choice,but I think it has been discontinued.The Rondo Bronze and/or Blue are I think the direct replacement models but their prices are much higher than the $300 budget,although stocks of the MC25FL might still be available.Denon DL103 is another good match for the Zeta.
Back again after some studying
Back again after some studying
Dealers in USA
Its really funny. The Ortofon dealers here in America, as well as Ortofon USA told me that the MC3 Turbo was a freat tracker, very neutral, had a long run of the same design, used to be the X3MC, and only the output voltage changed when they made it Turbo, from 2.5 mv to 3.3 mv. They also said it would be very dynamic, equal to the AT-OC9 in nearly all aspects, but on the warmer side of neutral. They then tried to convince me to possibly shell out an extra $100.00 for a Ortofon MC called the Salsa, but its a low output, .38mv which I think my preamp could handle.....Audio Research told me to be on the safe side and tick with .4 mv output as the lowest I should go with the SP9 Preamp. Then Loading comes into play, the Salsa wants a Load of 20 ohms.
At any rate, the only experience I have with LOMC Cartridges is the AT-OC9, which is generous with a .4 mv output. I have used HOMC Cartridges mainly, it was the Sumiko Talisman Line, from the 80's to early 1990. I didnt mess with the BluePoints, or any other Sumiko's. The only one that I ever really LOVED in a HOMC Cartridge was the Sumiko Talisman d....it was an amazing sounding cartridge, which at the Time I had a Dealer that I bought from Lend to me for a week or so. I loved that cartridge. It also got great reviews.
I dont know much about Denon's....of them, the ones I have been referred to was the DL110, or the DL160. I can tell you, I just heard a Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout with a VPI JMW Tonearm, and honestly, I wasn't thrilled with it. It was about equal with my AT-OC9 honestly. For the price, I thought maybe the Denon's were cheaply manufactured. The Dealers here, and Ortofon tell me that the Turbo MC3 is perfect for my Arm, and has a Nude Fine Line Stylus.
I plugged the figures into the Cartridge/Arm Website, and the Ortofon Turbo, and the AT-150mlx, and Dynavector 10X5 all seem to match perfectly, with a Res. Frequ. of 10-11 Hz. I know that thats on paper, but still a starting point. I was told that Ortofon was very skilled, and precision built in Denmark, but never had one.
Now, if the AT150mlx, is warmer than the AT-OC9 and could track as good, being same stylus and cantilever, it could sound like a winner, just starting to get expensive, unless I order from another country, and Ive never done that. I found an interesting Review of the NEW AT-OC9ML/II, it also mentions the AT-150mlx in the same review, but doesn't give it nearly as good a Rating as the OC9.Here it is:
http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200711.htm
Let me know what you think of this?? It makes me second guess myself, maybe the new version is that much better than mine????
Thanks, Ray
Its really funny. The Ortofon dealers here in America, as well as Ortofon USA told me that the MC3 Turbo was a freat tracker, very neutral, had a long run of the same design, used to be the X3MC, and only the output voltage changed when they made it Turbo, from 2.5 mv to 3.3 mv. They also said it would be very dynamic, equal to the AT-OC9 in nearly all aspects, but on the warmer side of neutral. They then tried to convince me to possibly shell out an extra $100.00 for a Ortofon MC called the Salsa, but its a low output, .38mv which I think my preamp could handle.....Audio Research told me to be on the safe side and tick with .4 mv output as the lowest I should go with the SP9 Preamp. Then Loading comes into play, the Salsa wants a Load of 20 ohms.
At any rate, the only experience I have with LOMC Cartridges is the AT-OC9, which is generous with a .4 mv output. I have used HOMC Cartridges mainly, it was the Sumiko Talisman Line, from the 80's to early 1990. I didnt mess with the BluePoints, or any other Sumiko's. The only one that I ever really LOVED in a HOMC Cartridge was the Sumiko Talisman d....it was an amazing sounding cartridge, which at the Time I had a Dealer that I bought from Lend to me for a week or so. I loved that cartridge. It also got great reviews.
I dont know much about Denon's....of them, the ones I have been referred to was the DL110, or the DL160. I can tell you, I just heard a Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout with a VPI JMW Tonearm, and honestly, I wasn't thrilled with it. It was about equal with my AT-OC9 honestly. For the price, I thought maybe the Denon's were cheaply manufactured. The Dealers here, and Ortofon tell me that the Turbo MC3 is perfect for my Arm, and has a Nude Fine Line Stylus.
I plugged the figures into the Cartridge/Arm Website, and the Ortofon Turbo, and the AT-150mlx, and Dynavector 10X5 all seem to match perfectly, with a Res. Frequ. of 10-11 Hz. I know that thats on paper, but still a starting point. I was told that Ortofon was very skilled, and precision built in Denmark, but never had one.
Now, if the AT150mlx, is warmer than the AT-OC9 and could track as good, being same stylus and cantilever, it could sound like a winner, just starting to get expensive, unless I order from another country, and Ive never done that. I found an interesting Review of the NEW AT-OC9ML/II, it also mentions the AT-150mlx in the same review, but doesn't give it nearly as good a Rating as the OC9.Here it is:
http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200711.htm
Let me know what you think of this?? It makes me second guess myself, maybe the new version is that much better than mine????
Thanks, Ray
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