http://cgi.ebay.com/Ortofon-MC-3-Tu...48648QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262
Hi,
I'd say at the above price the LC tipped MC3 Turbo is
definitely worth trying, noting the very long stylus life.
At this price its foibles can be ignored.
There is a Japan only ATF3 mkII for the same amount,
medium output, likely the best MC at the price but
the stylus will not last as long as the MC3 Turbo.
The site is currently down, the link is :
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_64_267&products_id=998
/sreten.
Hi,
I'd say at the above price the LC tipped MC3 Turbo is
definitely worth trying, noting the very long stylus life.
At this price its foibles can be ignored.
There is a Japan only ATF3 mkII for the same amount,
medium output, likely the best MC at the price but
the stylus will not last as long as the MC3 Turbo.
The site is currently down, the link is :
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_64_267&products_id=998
/sreten.
The MC3 turbo might be a good mechanical match to a heavy tonearm like the Zeta but past experience with X3MC and MC3 Turbo does not agree with "smooth" sound.It is more a shut-in sound lacking in bandwidth,creating a dry & compressed sound and small scale soundstage.Perhaps not harsh,but hard it surely is.LC/FL tips vary in mass,diamond finish,and radii among others.At this price I don't think that a LC/FL tip will be much better than a nude super elliptical tip like for example the one on the Nagaoka MP150 and MP200,both well below the $300 target.These tips on the MP150/200 are shockingly clear and mirror finished when seen under a microscope.The MP200 has also a boron cantilever,while the MP150 a tapered hard aluminium one.For me,these two would be very high on the list.Especially the MP200 has a very clear,refined and open sound,the MP150 a slightly brighter upper mid/highs.More options soon,but another that comes to mind is the Benz MC Gold(LOMC),or MC Silver(HOMC),although a bit above the $300 budget.
Hi,
Your spouting pure conjecture about Ortofon LC/FL tips.
The MC3's normal cost does not imply a lower quality tip.
FWIW super ellipticals have the lowest life of any type for a given
tracking force because the minor radius is decreased without a
corresponding increase in major radius, high contact pressure.
The MC3 tip is the opposite, a normal elliptical minor
radius with an ~ 2x bigger than normal major radius.
Also see : http://cgi.ebay.com/Ortofon-X5-MC-C...48648QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
If after a really serious tip, small minor, very big major radii.
/sreten.
Your spouting pure conjecture about Ortofon LC/FL tips.
The MC3's normal cost does not imply a lower quality tip.
FWIW super ellipticals have the lowest life of any type for a given
tracking force because the minor radius is decreased without a
corresponding increase in major radius, high contact pressure.
The MC3 tip is the opposite, a normal elliptical minor
radius with an ~ 2x bigger than normal major radius.
Also see : http://cgi.ebay.com/Ortofon-X5-MC-C...48648QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
If after a really serious tip, small minor, very big major radii.
/sreten.
Hi sreten,the tip of the mc3turbo has nothing to do with the excellent tip of the X5MC which was far superior than the one on the x3mc and mc3 turbo.If you have the chance to see both under a microscope you will agree.The issue here I think it is not which type of tip lasts longer,but a cartridge at around $300 with the best possible sound as described by Ray.From personal experience,the mc3turbo can't stand a chance compared with either the mp200 or mc Gold (or Silver) in terms of resolution,balance and refinement.It simply sounds compressed imo,and the SP9 does not forgive sounds like this
My comments were obviously about cheap LC/FL tips and not about them in general,or ortofon.Top quality ellipticals are far superior than cheap LC/FL's and you have to have a look at the elliptical tip of the MP200.I know ortofon very very well,and I know what they are capable of,but,sorry,the mc3turbo is a cheap model,and has no place on a vpi/zeta,especially when Ray is willing to pay twice as much.Do you remember the VMS30?It used to have a much better FL tip.
My comments were obviously about cheap LC/FL tips and not about them in general,or ortofon.Top quality ellipticals are far superior than cheap LC/FL's and you have to have a look at the elliptical tip of the MP200.I know ortofon very very well,and I know what they are capable of,but,sorry,the mc3turbo is a cheap model,and has no place on a vpi/zeta,especially when Ray is willing to pay twice as much.Do you remember the VMS30?It used to have a much better FL tip.
Tip Mass and Quality
Hi Panikos,
I have read the replies of everyone, and im not as familiar with the quality of the Stylus tips as you guys may be. I thought that the ATOC9 has some sort of special stylus, making it a great tracker, and revealing so much detail from the LP.....at least thats what the reviews and opinions seem to say. I dont know about the quality of the tip, or how long it may last. But now im in real Dire Straits!!! After reading the info about the Tips, I decided to have a closer look at the OC9, and I looked at it under a Radio Shack Handheld Microscope........needless to say, without paying enough attention at the other end of the Microscope, I broke the Cantilever.....now its just Flopping up and Down, detached from the coil winding inside.
I now have to consider make a decision quicker than I would have. There is only 2 Dealers of Audi in my area anymore......One guy has the M3 Turbo by Ortofon, and wants $250.00 US Money, and the other Dealer has a Dynavector 10X5, which is $345.00 US Money, and he also has an Ortofon MC5 or something, its a newer High Output Ortofon, but costs over $400.00 US Money. I did get to hear the Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout with a VPI Tonearm....it sounded very similar to the OC9 to me, not any warmer, very quick, detailed, fast and accurate. I cant say I was Wow'd by it. not at $345.00...it didn't do it for me. Just my opinion.
I am not familiar with the line of Cartridges you are speaking about, and the quality of their Stylus, and their sound, and I wont be able to audition any. The only option I have now, is to send in my OC9 to Audio Technica USA, and get a new ATOC9ML/II for $159.00 and my broken cartridge, or try something else that I am not familiar with. Where would I find a cartridge in the USA like you are recommending?? I dont want to jump at the MC3 Turbo either, just because it happens to be there, at the Dealer. The only other thing I have is a Bent Cantilever Goldring 1012, that I never even listened to, I lent it to my brother, and he bent the stylus by accident. I knoew that the Goldring has a replaceable stylus, the 1012 GX.....but that alone costs $225.00 US Money. Im really in a mess now. Please help me out here guys....Thanks, Ray
Hi Panikos,
I have read the replies of everyone, and im not as familiar with the quality of the Stylus tips as you guys may be. I thought that the ATOC9 has some sort of special stylus, making it a great tracker, and revealing so much detail from the LP.....at least thats what the reviews and opinions seem to say. I dont know about the quality of the tip, or how long it may last. But now im in real Dire Straits!!! After reading the info about the Tips, I decided to have a closer look at the OC9, and I looked at it under a Radio Shack Handheld Microscope........needless to say, without paying enough attention at the other end of the Microscope, I broke the Cantilever.....now its just Flopping up and Down, detached from the coil winding inside.
I now have to consider make a decision quicker than I would have. There is only 2 Dealers of Audi in my area anymore......One guy has the M3 Turbo by Ortofon, and wants $250.00 US Money, and the other Dealer has a Dynavector 10X5, which is $345.00 US Money, and he also has an Ortofon MC5 or something, its a newer High Output Ortofon, but costs over $400.00 US Money. I did get to hear the Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout with a VPI Tonearm....it sounded very similar to the OC9 to me, not any warmer, very quick, detailed, fast and accurate. I cant say I was Wow'd by it. not at $345.00...it didn't do it for me. Just my opinion.
I am not familiar with the line of Cartridges you are speaking about, and the quality of their Stylus, and their sound, and I wont be able to audition any. The only option I have now, is to send in my OC9 to Audio Technica USA, and get a new ATOC9ML/II for $159.00 and my broken cartridge, or try something else that I am not familiar with. Where would I find a cartridge in the USA like you are recommending?? I dont want to jump at the MC3 Turbo either, just because it happens to be there, at the Dealer. The only other thing I have is a Bent Cantilever Goldring 1012, that I never even listened to, I lent it to my brother, and he bent the stylus by accident. I knoew that the Goldring has a replaceable stylus, the 1012 GX.....but that alone costs $225.00 US Money. Im really in a mess now. Please help me out here guys....Thanks, Ray
Dang!!!
Hey Ray
That is a Bummer. The dynavector is too much money for somrthing that didnt wow you.. The retip sounds attractive The trade in i mean..
I have a Hi fi world review of the current OC9 if you would like to email me then i will scan it and send it to you as quick as I can.
I still maintain that until you have it on your system hooked up to your preamp, then you wont know what it sounds like... thats all I ever said amidst the posts here.
Panikos will have a better chance of advising you as he does have extensive knowledge....perhaps he knows of your preamp.
Let me know if you want a copy of that review
Nick
Hey Ray
That is a Bummer. The dynavector is too much money for somrthing that didnt wow you.. The retip sounds attractive The trade in i mean..
I have a Hi fi world review of the current OC9 if you would like to email me then i will scan it and send it to you as quick as I can.
I still maintain that until you have it on your system hooked up to your preamp, then you wont know what it sounds like... thats all I ever said amidst the posts here.
Panikos will have a better chance of advising you as he does have extensive knowledge....perhaps he knows of your preamp.
Let me know if you want a copy of that review
Nick
Tell Us more about the Nagaokas Panikos
Hi
I remember from my younger days howNagaoaka were well regarded. Though seemingly pricey, they are still commanding good reviews Panikos. Which are your favorites and how do they sound I suppose is the obvious question. Maybe Ray may be best served by one of these as opposed to Ortofon or Dynavector.
On a personal note, how are things in Cyprus these days?
Regards
Nick
Hi
I remember from my younger days howNagaoaka were well regarded. Though seemingly pricey, they are still commanding good reviews Panikos. Which are your favorites and how do they sound I suppose is the obvious question. Maybe Ray may be best served by one of these as opposed to Ortofon or Dynavector.
On a personal note, how are things in Cyprus these days?
Regards
Nick
Sent ray some reviews
Hey Guys
I just sent Ray some reviews. That should keep him busy for a while. Panikos... I see LP gear has a trade in offer to US customers for Nagaokas.. which ones do you like? I cant find a lot of reviews on them.
I think Ray (correct me if I am mistaken Ray) might be getting confused with facts and figures as he doesnt have the opportunity to actually here them on his system
Whilst I believe that stats and graphs can be useful not to mention the diamonds used etc etc.. nothing beats a good ole listen...
In order of least desirable for me would be
1. Mounted diamond.. i think nude stylii are superior
2. Spherical
3. elliptical
4 Fine line
5 Shibata cut
Oh and Ray why do you have to buy fro PHilli? I ordered stuff from lp gear and got to australia in 5 days.. well packed and no problems.. They are doing a Nagaoka trade in offer right now check out the mp500
NIck
Hey Guys
I just sent Ray some reviews. That should keep him busy for a while. Panikos... I see LP gear has a trade in offer to US customers for Nagaokas.. which ones do you like? I cant find a lot of reviews on them.
I think Ray (correct me if I am mistaken Ray) might be getting confused with facts and figures as he doesnt have the opportunity to actually here them on his system
Whilst I believe that stats and graphs can be useful not to mention the diamonds used etc etc.. nothing beats a good ole listen...
In order of least desirable for me would be
1. Mounted diamond.. i think nude stylii are superior
2. Spherical
3. elliptical
4 Fine line
5 Shibata cut
Oh and Ray why do you have to buy fro PHilli? I ordered stuff from lp gear and got to australia in 5 days.. well packed and no problems.. They are doing a Nagaoka trade in offer right now check out the mp500
NIck
Thanks Nick
Hey Nick.....
There is a Dealer near Philly,PA I drove to called Quest for Sound. They have a website called Quest for Sound......you oughtta take a look. He sells new Duals...yep, brand new just like they used to be. He also sells Turntables by Marantz...VPI... Music Hall...and this unreal looking Table that looks like a piece of Art...its called a Consonance Opera Droplet L5.0....the thing has a platter that is contoured to a LP, including indent for the Lable area on the record. It is huge, comes with a Heavy beautiful stand, and a Marble Base, the Motor is from Germany, and the Table is made in China...it looks nothing like a Chinese Table. Looks very European. I dont know where its designed, but it is $4000.00 retail without an Arm. He stocks alot of accessories, Record Mats, Record Cleaning Solutions, LAST products, Tonearms by Dynavector, Moerch, AudioQuest, The Carbon Fibre Origin Live, and Schroeder. Not to mention cartridges by Dynavector, Grado, and Ortofon. This is where I auditioned the Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout. He has about 5 sound rooms, full of Speakers, Amps, Preamps, CD Players, etc......everything. The speakers are beautiful, one set look just like my ALON Model IV Mk.II except they have a Huge Wooden Horn on top, not like the Klipsch Horns, something different. They also weigh about 130 lbs each, like my ALON'S.
He recommended the Dynavector, and played it for me...maybe it was the speakers, because the room that the VPI Scout was in, had more of the thin Floor Standing Speakers, without the Big Woofers. I dont know, maybe thats why the Dynavector 10X5 sounded more on the bright side....but he was using Tube Preamp and Amp, so I though warmth would set in, and with VPI Table and Arm. However, I dont think that the Scout Table has the Bass capabilities of my HW19 Mk.IV VPI Table.
I didn't want to tell him I wasn't thrilled with the Dynavector, because he went through the trouble of auditioning it for me. And he is a very nice guy, name Steve Monte. Its a nice website to look at though. The Dynavector is a Light Plastic Bodied Cartridge with an Aluminum Plate on top to mount against headshell. I saw many people are claiming even better sound by removing the Plastic Body from the Cartridge, but then its extremely light. I dont know, I never mess with things that much.
He said that the Ortofon X5MC was the most recent ravely reviewed cartridge by Absolute Sound....it was $420.00 compared to $345.00 for the Dynavecto 10X5. But for my main music, which is Well Recorded Rock, such as Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, Moody Blues, ELP, King Crimson...etc....and then alot of Folk or Singer Song Writer....not really into Jazz or Blues..very little and not Classical at all. So, maybe that also weighs into the equation. Because he said that if I preferred Classic Rock, then the Dynavector 10X5 would be a better choice than the Ortofon that was more expensive. He said that was a Laid Back kinda cartridge more suited to Jazz. These are some of my considerations.....music I prefer to listen to. And most all of my LP's are either New, or near mint, cleaned with a VPI Record Cleaner and treated with LAST.
Hey Nick.....
There is a Dealer near Philly,PA I drove to called Quest for Sound. They have a website called Quest for Sound......you oughtta take a look. He sells new Duals...yep, brand new just like they used to be. He also sells Turntables by Marantz...VPI... Music Hall...and this unreal looking Table that looks like a piece of Art...its called a Consonance Opera Droplet L5.0....the thing has a platter that is contoured to a LP, including indent for the Lable area on the record. It is huge, comes with a Heavy beautiful stand, and a Marble Base, the Motor is from Germany, and the Table is made in China...it looks nothing like a Chinese Table. Looks very European. I dont know where its designed, but it is $4000.00 retail without an Arm. He stocks alot of accessories, Record Mats, Record Cleaning Solutions, LAST products, Tonearms by Dynavector, Moerch, AudioQuest, The Carbon Fibre Origin Live, and Schroeder. Not to mention cartridges by Dynavector, Grado, and Ortofon. This is where I auditioned the Dynavector 10X5 on a VPI Scout. He has about 5 sound rooms, full of Speakers, Amps, Preamps, CD Players, etc......everything. The speakers are beautiful, one set look just like my ALON Model IV Mk.II except they have a Huge Wooden Horn on top, not like the Klipsch Horns, something different. They also weigh about 130 lbs each, like my ALON'S.
He recommended the Dynavector, and played it for me...maybe it was the speakers, because the room that the VPI Scout was in, had more of the thin Floor Standing Speakers, without the Big Woofers. I dont know, maybe thats why the Dynavector 10X5 sounded more on the bright side....but he was using Tube Preamp and Amp, so I though warmth would set in, and with VPI Table and Arm. However, I dont think that the Scout Table has the Bass capabilities of my HW19 Mk.IV VPI Table.
I didn't want to tell him I wasn't thrilled with the Dynavector, because he went through the trouble of auditioning it for me. And he is a very nice guy, name Steve Monte. Its a nice website to look at though. The Dynavector is a Light Plastic Bodied Cartridge with an Aluminum Plate on top to mount against headshell. I saw many people are claiming even better sound by removing the Plastic Body from the Cartridge, but then its extremely light. I dont know, I never mess with things that much.
He said that the Ortofon X5MC was the most recent ravely reviewed cartridge by Absolute Sound....it was $420.00 compared to $345.00 for the Dynavecto 10X5. But for my main music, which is Well Recorded Rock, such as Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, Moody Blues, ELP, King Crimson...etc....and then alot of Folk or Singer Song Writer....not really into Jazz or Blues..very little and not Classical at all. So, maybe that also weighs into the equation. Because he said that if I preferred Classic Rock, then the Dynavector 10X5 would be a better choice than the Ortofon that was more expensive. He said that was a Laid Back kinda cartridge more suited to Jazz. These are some of my considerations.....music I prefer to listen to. And most all of my LP's are either New, or near mint, cleaned with a VPI Record Cleaner and treated with LAST.
Hi Nick and Ray,I will have a look at lpgear's offers later.As I said before,at around $300 which is Ray's budget,the MP200 is the one to consider,also the slightly cheaper MP150.Both have a clear,well balanced and dynamic sound that will play rock very well and at the same time they are not thin or bright.Of the two,the MP200 is the smoother by a small margin.As the range of Nagaoka is now,the more expensive models offer progressively slightly smoother and more refined sound.The MP200 sounds very close to the next model up the MP300 and it is imo the best value of all models too.The 300 has an ultra rigid aluminium body for lower resonances but the boron and tip are the same as the 200.The top of the line MP500 also has the aluminium body of the 300 and boron cantilever,but has a Line contact tip instead of the super elliptical one.Tips on all models from the MP150 and up,are nude diamonds.So,in the end it is a matter of the price Ray wishes to spend.I agree with you Nick,that the most important thing is to listen if possible.Our comments must be taken as a guide but the final decision must be to the buyer My comments are based on personal experience from listening to them on my system,or well known friend's systems.It seems that Ray's music tastes are very close to mine,so our sound tastes could be close too.
My comments are based on personal experience from listening to them on my system,or well known friend's systems.It seems that Ray's music tastes are very close to mine,so our sound tastes could be close too.
Hi Panicos K,
Now you have my interest.
I have owned several turntables of varying quality in the past. I did settle on Thorens earlier on and have owned several different models. I have serviced even more different tables in the course of my earlier occupation.
At the moment I have a TD-125 MKII and a TD-126 MKIII (?). The 126 will be rebuilt, the 125 was rebuilt years ago. I got it from a customer that couldn't get it properly repaired. He didn't want it even after I had it running well. I guess he had reached his limit with it. It's been running fine for me ever since. It blew away a TD-160 and a TD-115 MKII (not hard).
I am lucky enough to have the original Thorens arm for both tables. That's my belief anyway. I was never impressed enough with other arms to change the one the tables came with. Besides, the SME is simply too finicky for my tastes. So, that's my table situation.
I have also tried more cartridges than I can remember. I have found that most Shure cartridges can sound "grainy" or "gritty", a type of harshness that's hard to pin down. Even the V-15 series suffers from this sound quality (sorry sreten). I have adjusted the loading for each. I'm also lucky to have an HP LCR meter, so I measure the cables and phono input capacitance and correct to match the recommended loading.
I think the nicest cartridges I have had so far are in the Ortofon line, all VMS principle types. I used a VMS-20E MKII for a time, then tried a VMS-30E MKII. Man, they have close to the same specs, but they sound completely different! I still have the 30E on that arm, but unable to buy a new stylus, I bought an Ortofon 540 new. I have yet to mount it.
I have tried the AKG K8 and a number of Shure, Audio Technica and others. I even had an Astatic copy of an Ortofon (2500MF & 2501MF) that sounded not too bad, better than the Shures! To date, the Ortofon products seem to deliver the best performance I have seen to date. I have a mental aversion to using a cartridge that I can't replace the stylus on. Adding the shipping to the cost of a stylus bothers me. That plus the time involved in the transaction.
For the curious, the phono preamp makes a huge difference in the sound quality as you might imagine. I have been using a Marantz 3650 and SC-9 preamp normally. I have tried others, and I also have an Eico HF-85 tube unit, but I haven't tried it yet. Soon, I'll have to build my own if want to use my new Cyrus Pre X preamp. There is no phono stage in that. I will listen to a Creek Destiny with the phono preamp. It has a good chip based phono pre, but I'll have to see what it actually sounds like.
There's the background on my vinyl listening history. I don't know how good this stuff is, or isn't compared to what else is out there. I'm not a guy that needs to own the latest or best, but I do think I have lucked out in a few places. I just know what I do like the sound of. I should mention that I also use a "Platter Matter" all the time. It does really make the background much quieter and complex passages a little cleaner, better defined. That's the best way I can describe it.
So, I hear there is an arm/table/cartridge page somewhere? Could someone please point me to it? I am curious about what it has to say. I guess I'm posting simply because of other reports of Ortofon sounding poorly in the highs where that seems to be where they sound smoother than other brands. I wonder what preamp stage people are using who have that issue.
Hi sreten,
I am sensitive to the fact that you really like the sound of Shure cartridges. I'm wondering how to set one up for success in that case. If you don't mind me asking, what does your setup look like and what preamp are you using? I would rather help other people get good response from their Shure cartridges than suggest they get something that sounds smoother. In no way do I wish to "cut up" this brand.
-Chris
Now you have my interest.
I have owned several turntables of varying quality in the past. I did settle on Thorens earlier on and have owned several different models. I have serviced even more different tables in the course of my earlier occupation.
At the moment I have a TD-125 MKII and a TD-126 MKIII (?). The 126 will be rebuilt, the 125 was rebuilt years ago. I got it from a customer that couldn't get it properly repaired. He didn't want it even after I had it running well. I guess he had reached his limit with it. It's been running fine for me ever since. It blew away a TD-160 and a TD-115 MKII (not hard).
I am lucky enough to have the original Thorens arm for both tables. That's my belief anyway. I was never impressed enough with other arms to change the one the tables came with. Besides, the SME is simply too finicky for my tastes. So, that's my table situation.
I have also tried more cartridges than I can remember. I have found that most Shure cartridges can sound "grainy" or "gritty", a type of harshness that's hard to pin down. Even the V-15 series suffers from this sound quality (sorry sreten). I have adjusted the loading for each. I'm also lucky to have an HP LCR meter, so I measure the cables and phono input capacitance and correct to match the recommended loading.
I think the nicest cartridges I have had so far are in the Ortofon line, all VMS principle types. I used a VMS-20E MKII for a time, then tried a VMS-30E MKII. Man, they have close to the same specs, but they sound completely different! I still have the 30E on that arm, but unable to buy a new stylus, I bought an Ortofon 540 new. I have yet to mount it.
I have tried the AKG K8 and a number of Shure, Audio Technica and others. I even had an Astatic copy of an Ortofon (2500MF & 2501MF) that sounded not too bad, better than the Shures! To date, the Ortofon products seem to deliver the best performance I have seen to date. I have a mental aversion to using a cartridge that I can't replace the stylus on. Adding the shipping to the cost of a stylus bothers me. That plus the time involved in the transaction.
For the curious, the phono preamp makes a huge difference in the sound quality as you might imagine. I have been using a Marantz 3650 and SC-9 preamp normally. I have tried others, and I also have an Eico HF-85 tube unit, but I haven't tried it yet. Soon, I'll have to build my own if want to use my new Cyrus Pre X preamp. There is no phono stage in that. I will listen to a Creek Destiny with the phono preamp. It has a good chip based phono pre, but I'll have to see what it actually sounds like.
There's the background on my vinyl listening history. I don't know how good this stuff is, or isn't compared to what else is out there. I'm not a guy that needs to own the latest or best, but I do think I have lucked out in a few places. I just know what I do like the sound of. I should mention that I also use a "Platter Matter" all the time. It does really make the background much quieter and complex passages a little cleaner, better defined. That's the best way I can describe it.
So, I hear there is an arm/table/cartridge page somewhere? Could someone please point me to it? I am curious about what it has to say. I guess I'm posting simply because of other reports of Ortofon sounding poorly in the highs where that seems to be where they sound smoother than other brands. I wonder what preamp stage people are using who have that issue.
Hi sreten,
I am sensitive to the fact that you really like the sound of Shure cartridges. I'm wondering how to set one up for success in that case. If you don't mind me asking, what does your setup look like and what preamp are you using? I would rather help other people get good response from their Shure cartridges than suggest they get something that sounds smoother. In no way do I wish to "cut up" this brand.
-Chris
Hi Jeff,
For me, I was blown away by the lack of bearing rumble and other noises I didn't even know existed before.
Once you have heard something with really good bearings, it's a bit like a revelation. I was always used to my quiet table (TD-160) compared to my newer TD-115 MKII. I sold the others right away after playing the 125 MKII. Like a slap in the face! The amount of background noise is something I think we simply tune out. It would be very similar to moving from a busy city to an agricultural area. I also did that, and now the constant noise of Mississauga (near Toronto), or Toronto drives me nuts. I can't wait to get back home in cow territory.
-Chris
For me, I was blown away by the lack of bearing rumble and other noises I didn't even know existed before.
Once you have heard something with really good bearings, it's a bit like a revelation. I was always used to my quiet table (TD-160) compared to my newer TD-115 MKII. I sold the others right away after playing the 125 MKII. Like a slap in the face! The amount of background noise is something I think we simply tune out. It would be very similar to moving from a busy city to an agricultural area. I also did that, and now the constant noise of Mississauga (near Toronto), or Toronto drives me nuts. I can't wait to get back home in cow territory.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I think the ortofon VMS30 has a nude line contact tip,and the VMS20EII has the elliptical one.The VMS30 is the smoother of the two and less critical to loading.Ortofon even had a "chip"looking capacitor you could use with the VMS models,by simply pushing it at the back of the body and through the pins.I still have a VMS20EII and like to listen to it from time to time.Both needed a low mass arm due to their high compliances,and in a low mass arm they used to sound at their best.The 540 has an even more advanced line contact tip than the VMS30.I would consider the 530 as the heir of the VMS30.Any of the above ortofons will sound good on Thorens tonearms too,but also on SME's.I understand what you say about older SME's but once you get used to them they are very good with VMS and 500 series of ortofon cartridges.SME's are also excellent match to both the TD125II & TD126III turntables you have.With turntables like these(my favorit would be the 125)you don't need to bother for newer and latest turntables.Classics never die and for me the 125 is one of them.One of the finest sounds I have heard was a TD125/SME 3009 S2 imp/Linn TRAK(I think,it was a less well specified ASAK),a cartridge that most would never thought of trying on a SME.So,here you seem to have some very nice items that will offer very high quality sound when put together.
I also have several Shure's in my "collection",like M75EMKII,V15TypeII,V15TypeIII with original Shure or SAS styluses.I understand what you mean by "the type of harshness that is hard to pin down".It is a strange hf lift that I wouldn't describe as harsh,but rather a "polite hf rise"that many seem to like,especially for models like the M75EDtypeII upwards.Lesser models than this,yes they were harsher.There is a page with many details about Thorens,I will try to find it and post it here.
EDITlatter matter?The sticy one?Very famous back then.A similar one comes as standard on Oracles today Nice one and I believe good on the Thorens?
I think the ortofon VMS30 has a nude line contact tip,and the VMS20EII has the elliptical one.The VMS30 is the smoother of the two and less critical to loading.Ortofon even had a "chip"looking capacitor you could use with the VMS models,by simply pushing it at the back of the body and through the pins.I still have a VMS20EII and like to listen to it from time to time.Both needed a low mass arm due to their high compliances,and in a low mass arm they used to sound at their best.The 540 has an even more advanced line contact tip than the VMS30.I would consider the 530 as the heir of the VMS30.Any of the above ortofons will sound good on Thorens tonearms too,but also on SME's.I understand what you say about older SME's but once you get used to them they are very good with VMS and 500 series of ortofon cartridges.SME's are also excellent match to both the TD125II & TD126III turntables you have.With turntables like these(my favorit would be the 125)you don't need to bother for newer and latest turntables.Classics never die and for me the 125 is one of them.One of the finest sounds I have heard was a TD125/SME 3009 S2 imp/Linn TRAK(I think,it was a less well specified ASAK),a cartridge that most would never thought of trying on a SME.So,here you seem to have some very nice items that will offer very high quality sound when put together.
I also have several Shure's in my "collection",like M75EMKII,V15TypeII,V15TypeIII with original Shure or SAS styluses.I understand what you mean by "the type of harshness that is hard to pin down".It is a strange hf lift that I wouldn't describe as harsh,but rather a "polite hf rise"that many seem to like,especially for models like the M75EDtypeII upwards.Lesser models than this,yes they were harsher.There is a page with many details about Thorens,I will try to find it and post it here.
EDIT
latter matter?The sticy one?Very famous back then.A similar one comes as standard on Oracles today Nice one and I believe good on the Thorens?
Hi Panicos,
You have a very good knowledge of the Ortofon line. I have a spare blank tonearm board, so maybe I'll try a newer SME arm at some point. The older ones are the only ones I have seen so far.
All Ortofon lines with the same looking bodies are in fact the same bodies. So the only difference between an Ortofon VMS-15E and VMS-30E would be the stylus. Same for the 540 lineup. I just bought it and have yet to mount it onto an arm. Now, if the difference between the VMS-20 and VMS-30 is similar to what I'm going to hear between the VMS-30 and 540 ..... WOW! I wouldn't know what to say. I considered the 530, but thought that since I have had the VMS-30E MKII for many years, it was time to move up some. I am really looking forward to this now!
The "Platter Matter" is that sticky one you are thinking of. It can be a real pain to use sometimes. You have to peel the LP and the pad away from each other once you are done. Then you will probably need to rinse the mat before using it again. If you think your LP is clean, the Platter Matter will let you know. I will say that I wouldn't give this thing up. Once you compensate for the VTA change, it is that simple, it completely eliminates any vibration in the LP. If you can find these, I would recommend them highly. You do have to watch the weight though. These are not a light mat. They make any good table into an amazing table.
As for the Shure cartridges, the V-15 types sounded the most harsh. I used to be able to tell when one is in use from a brief listen. One year I shocked the Koss rep in his stall when I walked up and told him what cartridge he was using (V-15 III). The poor guy was just stunned as I was the sixth guy that had walked up and identified the cartridge he was using to show off his speakers. I believe the table was a TD-160, around the corner of the "L" shaped space.
There has got to be a reason for this. Something that is correctable.
Have you seen the new Thorens tables? I really wish I could afford one! They are lovely to look at, and I hear they perform even better. Not the "cheaper" ones, but the upper models.
-Chris
You have a very good knowledge of the Ortofon line. I have a spare blank tonearm board, so maybe I'll try a newer SME arm at some point. The older ones are the only ones I have seen so far.
All Ortofon lines with the same looking bodies are in fact the same bodies. So the only difference between an Ortofon VMS-15E and VMS-30E would be the stylus. Same for the 540 lineup. I just bought it and have yet to mount it onto an arm. Now, if the difference between the VMS-20 and VMS-30 is similar to what I'm going to hear between the VMS-30 and 540 ..... WOW! I wouldn't know what to say. I considered the 530, but thought that since I have had the VMS-30E MKII for many years, it was time to move up some. I am really looking forward to this now!
The "Platter Matter" is that sticky one you are thinking of. It can be a real pain to use sometimes. You have to peel the LP and the pad away from each other once you are done. Then you will probably need to rinse the mat before using it again. If you think your LP is clean, the Platter Matter will let you know. I will say that I wouldn't give this thing up. Once you compensate for the VTA change, it is that simple, it completely eliminates any vibration in the LP. If you can find these, I would recommend them highly. You do have to watch the weight though. These are not a light mat. They make any good table into an amazing table.
As for the Shure cartridges, the V-15 types sounded the most harsh. I used to be able to tell when one is in use from a brief listen. One year I shocked the Koss rep in his stall when I walked up and told him what cartridge he was using (V-15 III). The poor guy was just stunned as I was the sixth guy that had walked up and identified the cartridge he was using to show off his speakers. I believe the table was a TD-160, around the corner of the "L" shaped space.
There has got to be a reason for this. Something that is correctable.
Have you seen the new Thorens tables? I really wish I could afford one! They are lovely to look at, and I hear they perform even better. Not the "cheaper" ones, but the upper models.
-Chris
Hi Guys
I have 2 td 125's, one is working whilst one will receive a new plinth and a few other mods. Currently I am trying to sort an SME 3009 with a few mods, namely the bronze knife edge bearing, motorola cotton covered Litz rewire and foam damping inside the arm tube. I have just completed the rewire and the foam insertion but have hit a snag with the dashpot. The arm I had had the lifting plateau integrated into the nasty plastic bearing. Once I fitted the bronze bearing, no lifting plateau, so I need to track a dashpot with the plateau on it. I have tried threading the internal wall of the piston on the current early type dashpot I have, but it is hardened steel/chrome...
With regards to cartridges, I note Anatech mentions the Ortofons, all of which are Moving Magnet designs? Correct me on that if need be. After struggling for 2 years with 3 different MC's (ortofons all of them) and stepup up trasformers, valve pre amps etc etc, I simply gave up on Mc's.. too harsh for my system and nothing I did would eliminate it.
So i will let you know what the td125/sme/at150mlx sound like. I bought a new stylus for it just this week.
I have a NOS V15 type 3 body, no stylus, sitting here on my desk and I almost ordered a Jilco stylus last night. Good thing I read Anatechs views before I actually ordered it.. I might just put it on ebay instead.
I was/am tempted to put a dc motor in one of my td 125's and remove all of the electrics offboard if I do. I remember doing this to my Royce (moved the board from under the turntable to a box externally with a canon type connector). I was impressed by the difference in the silent passages in that the background was less noticable.. wether it was placebo or not I may well implement that in my second td 125. The way I look at it is, that the transformers/circuitry must emit a field that can interact with the cartridge somehow.. Anecdotal for sure but perhaps worth a try. I might just contact Mark Kelly and see if he can recommend one of his power supplies for the AC motor instead of dc... I wonder why Clear Audio still insist on using ac motors in the top end tables.
Still, no matter which way you look at it, the 125 is typical of the design ethos of the day which by the way has earnt the 125's reputation. Simple, solid yet timeless.
Nick
I have 2 td 125's, one is working whilst one will receive a new plinth and a few other mods. Currently I am trying to sort an SME 3009 with a few mods, namely the bronze knife edge bearing, motorola cotton covered Litz rewire and foam damping inside the arm tube. I have just completed the rewire and the foam insertion but have hit a snag with the dashpot. The arm I had had the lifting plateau integrated into the nasty plastic bearing. Once I fitted the bronze bearing, no lifting plateau, so I need to track a dashpot with the plateau on it. I have tried threading the internal wall of the piston on the current early type dashpot I have, but it is hardened steel/chrome...
With regards to cartridges, I note Anatech mentions the Ortofons, all of which are Moving Magnet designs? Correct me on that if need be. After struggling for 2 years with 3 different MC's (ortofons all of them) and stepup up trasformers, valve pre amps etc etc, I simply gave up on Mc's.. too harsh for my system and nothing I did would eliminate it.
So i will let you know what the td125/sme/at150mlx sound like. I bought a new stylus for it just this week.
I have a NOS V15 type 3 body, no stylus, sitting here on my desk and I almost ordered a Jilco stylus last night. Good thing I read Anatechs views before I actually ordered it.. I might just put it on ebay instead.
I was/am tempted to put a dc motor in one of my td 125's and remove all of the electrics offboard if I do. I remember doing this to my Royce (moved the board from under the turntable to a box externally with a canon type connector). I was impressed by the difference in the silent passages in that the background was less noticable.. wether it was placebo or not I may well implement that in my second td 125. The way I look at it is, that the transformers/circuitry must emit a field that can interact with the cartridge somehow.. Anecdotal for sure but perhaps worth a try. I might just contact Mark Kelly and see if he can recommend one of his power supplies for the AC motor instead of dc... I wonder why Clear Audio still insist on using ac motors in the top end tables.
Still, no matter which way you look at it, the 125 is typical of the design ethos of the day which by the way has earnt the 125's reputation. Simple, solid yet timeless.
Nick
Hi Chris & Nick,
Yes,I have seen the new Thorens and agree with you.In fact the only piece in my system I have replaced in the last years was a Systemdek turntable with a Thorens TD350 with SME M2 and I'm very happy with it.I also happen to know the ex-Thorens distributor here,and I'm very close to get two TD-126 MK III,one without tonearm and one with SME Series III.Each has some damages caused in the store,but I hope to build a complete one and keep some spares too The SME III is a very low mass arm so I will have the chance to try again a couple of my high compliance MM's.Unfortunately,no TD125's,but I think he has two AR AX (or XA ? )with their tonearms in quite good condition.I have read that these can accept a lot of tweaks with good results.I think I might sin in the end 
Yes,I have seen the new Thorens and agree with you.In fact the only piece in my system I have replaced in the last years was a Systemdek turntable with a Thorens TD350 with SME M2 and I'm very happy with it.I also happen to know the ex-Thorens distributor here,and I'm very close to get two TD-126 MK III,one without tonearm and one with SME Series III.Each has some damages caused in the store,but I hope to build a complete one and keep some spares too
The SME III is a very low mass arm so I will have the chance to try again a couple of my high compliance MM's.Unfortunately,no TD125's,but I think he has two AR AX (or XA ? )with their tonearms in quite good condition.I have read that these can accept a lot of tweaks with good results.I think I might sin in the end
Hi Panicos,
A TD-125 MKIII sounds like a very, very nice TT. I don't know what the differences are, but yours may include the Thorens auto-lift on the arm. I would love to have an original 125 MKIII! You are one very lucky fellow! I am wishing you luck there.
The TD-126 MKII I have is in rough condition. I'm trying to save it. The original arm has torn wires in the base of the arm. I can't seem to see how it comes apart for repair. So I have some other assorted bits I'm trying to assemble to get an original arm on this unit. I have no idea what the bearing is like though. I am a bit worried about it.
Let me know how these tables go for you. I guess you really like the TD350. I have not seen one in real life, but they are pretty in a TT kind of way.
-Chris
A TD-125 MKIII sounds like a very, very nice TT. I don't know what the differences are, but yours may include the Thorens auto-lift on the arm. I would love to have an original 125 MKIII! You are one very lucky fellow! I am wishing you luck there.
The TD-126 MKII I have is in rough condition. I'm trying to save it. The original arm has torn wires in the base of the arm. I can't seem to see how it comes apart for repair. So I have some other assorted bits I'm trying to assemble to get an original arm on this unit. I have no idea what the bearing is like though. I am a bit worried about it.
Let me know how these tables go for you. I guess you really like the TD350. I have not seen one in real life, but they are pretty in a TT kind of way.
-Chris
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