Heresy or hearsay
The Heresy's to my ears sound awful. That is not what I call real bass-reproduciton at all. It is Kindergarden. The difference to a proper built Onken woofersystem is huge. Worlds apart. Only a direct loaded horn is better or some great woofers in an infinite baffle. The only acceptable Klipsch (and only in bass) was the La Belle. Kind of cute.
Well, Metallica is not the best music to judge objectivly how a system sounds.
I have limited internet access at the moment, so this is a short encounter.
I am not speaking of frontloaded horns but the Onken cabinets.
In frontloaded horns that might be different, but usually frontloaded horns are too short. Kickbass, but nor real deep bass makes a bassguitar or double-bass or organ
come over realistic.
The Heresy's to my ears sound awful. That is not what I call real bass-reproduciton at all. It is Kindergarden. The difference to a proper built Onken woofersystem is huge. Worlds apart. Only a direct loaded horn is better or some great woofers in an infinite baffle. The only acceptable Klipsch (and only in bass) was the La Belle. Kind of cute.
Well, Metallica is not the best music to judge objectivly how a system sounds.
I have limited internet access at the moment, so this is a short encounter.
I am not speaking of frontloaded horns but the Onken cabinets.
In frontloaded horns that might be different, but usually frontloaded horns are too short. Kickbass, but nor real deep bass makes a bassguitar or double-bass or organ
come over realistic.
Thanks for your generosity, you are very kind.
Believe is not what we speak about here, but what one verified.
As I said. It was *YOU* who insisted that Meyer had the first patent.
Which in some way just shows, that Meyer wanted to go behind Yamahas
back and produce it themselves. Simple as that.
WRONG: All had dampers. If they where missing, somebody took them off. Why so insisting, kind of childish. O.k., you modify and sell those drivers, is that the reason?
Well, better don't scratch it off and smoke it in a pipe....
Maybe there was a little genie ...
why feel sorry?
ah... he was that genie.... now we know
The people who sell ferrofluid will explain the proper way to remove it.
Well... if it is in the airgap, it is THERE. It exists. It isn't just an idea or some imagination....
For me ... my perspective... it IS IN THE WAY.
Repetition does not make it more true.
And again: You have verified this, yes! I bet you have heard using vaseline as a cleaning method for airgaps for the first time in your life, but you jump to conclusions faster than you can think. With thinking I mean real thinking. And trying it out. There are plenty of simple ways to wash it 100% clean. But the vaseline is a perfect method of getting those tiny magnetic particles out.
You seem to react very quickly. Have a little drink first, relax and think before you just hammer unverified opinions into your keyboard, just for the sake of being Mr. Right.
This little recipe was meant as a hint for those who have problems with particles in airgaps, and you ... without thinking... without verifying, kind of badmouth it.
Phfeeww.
To quote yours truly: You can believe what you want:
Well, I do not just believe, I verified.
It might have been a better idea to have a quick check on your own webside, where it clearly says:
Japanese Compression driver gets high performance damping for the rear chamber, and Ferrofluid for the gap! Fantastic performance!
see: BEAR Labs PROJECT SHOWCASE
For your own sake: please refrain from using that dope from those drivers
Of course, it is not the same. I know the 288 very well. Nevertheless, if the JA6681 is loaded with a horn, this horn by its very nature is introduding as well impedance matching. Now... what happens when the resonance peak....which is there and which I measured of course and.... can HEAR with your favourite of a passive condenser PLUS ... yes ... in most cases ... resistor attenuated network 1st. order. You see, you wiggle out of those important facts... and thus ... repetition of the wrong doesn't make it right.... because those resistors kill the damping factor of the amp ... and thus it cannot damp this damn resonance frequency. I don't want to hammer it down your understanding, but this is at least hopefully useful to those who want to understand.
is based on what. On your experience, that SE Triodeamplifiers sound warm?
To me this shows that you don't have the slightest idea of SE Triodeamplifiers.
A good one does not sound warm at all, we are not speaking of vintage Quad amps, nor McIntosh (which are PP). It also has nothing to do if SE or PP, it depends how one designs and builds (and understands) amplifier technology.
I do believe you, but ... considering your listening experiences I daubt very much that those would measure up with what a trained ear can hear. As mentioned, if you generalise (which you did) SE Triode amplifiers as sounding warm, then I daubt you findings very much. And... oh... yes... this is an assumption... but oh... yes... an assumption based on a few of your errors (ear-rors)so I do cannot find much which resonates with my experience.
So if there is no LF limit on this driver, you tried it from lets say 20Hz upwards?
Or DC right away?
Yes, I do, I had the 555, with the 15A horn and the KS6368Horn. This driver is very different. I do not like large midrangehorns. Particular the Altec 203 Horn, damped or not, it sounds "metallica" to my ears.
We all have our own preferences. Our own taste. That is fine. But one shouldn't compare apples with bears
how do you handle it?
Assumption. You have never tried it, right? Be honest!
The better the amplifier (and source, and preamp, and correct horn and woofer-system) the better you can hear that very difference.
It is no use to assume how something could sound, you have to set it up (with mentioned high-quality equipment and .... trained ears, trained also by having visited good concert halls, good music).
again, no good use ... it's your guesswork
Not so good when friends want to bring their amps over for a listen...(makes for more work, and an apples and orange sort of comparision, but ok...)
If I want to listen to a good amp, I can quickly add a passive network right into the entrance of the RCA input. Quite simple.
For you it should be possible, if you designed so many amps.
Tratrix-matrix
you see, you write "might".... this is guessing. You need to know what you write about because you have done some serious testing and listening.
So your suggestions base on sensible experience.
"would".... !
again .... guessing
you give advice about things you have not tried yourself.
And I thought this driver can handle almost DC. So why NOT run it fullrange?
And let the horn naturally do the cut-off?
you see, you write "might".... this is guessing. You need to know what you write about because you have done some serious testing and listening.
So your suggestions base on sensible experience.
"would".... !
again .... guessing
you give advice about things you have not tried yourself.
And I thought this driver can handle almost DC. So why NOT run it fullrange?
And let the horn naturally do the cut-off?
Yamaha JA6681 versus JA6681B
There was no A version, there was the 6681 and the 6681B.
YAMAHA ƒz�[ƒ“ƒhƒ‰ƒCƒo�[ƒ†ƒjƒbƒgJA-6681/JA-6681B‚ÌŽd—l ƒ„ƒ}ƒn
8 ohms and 16 ohms (B) voicecoils
There was no A version, there was the 6681 and the 6681B.
YAMAHA ƒz�[ƒ“ƒhƒ‰ƒCƒo�[ƒ†ƒjƒbƒgJA-6681/JA-6681B‚ÌŽd—l ƒ„ƒ}ƒn
8 ohms and 16 ohms (B) voicecoils
Ok, so this explains that the 6681 = 8ohms and the 6681B = 16 ohms. Very good then.
Still ferrite magnets.
It's a nice idea but wrong.
Meyer has THE patents.
Yamaha having a presence in the USA would never have permitted such a thing to go unchallenged.
ALL of the drivers do have the Yamaha label under the Meyer label. I've removed a whole lot of them, I know.
How many have you had in your hands?
I am sorry this is not correct at all.
No body could do a good job removing the foam blocks without substantial effort and the potential for damaging irreplaceable diaphragms.
I have enough drivers still so that most likely I could open them and find enough variations on the "treatment" to satisfy your disbelief in the reality. Trust me, please, Meyer used a variety of treatments on the drivers he issued. The goop used is pretty much not removable except perhaps with the exactly proper solvent. These are stock, as issued from the factory.
<remarks not required for discussion deleted>
That is correct, repetition does not make it true.
Your perspective however does not coincide with the physical reality of how Ferrofluid operates or what happens when it is wicked away.
Ask the factory, since you do not believe me.
I'm not "Mr. Right", but on this topic with these particular details, I know that I am not wrong.
Removing visible ferrous fragments from a gap is very different than removing nano particles suspended in a synthetic silicon oil from a gap, in my view. We are talking about Ferrofluid, not iron filings, etc.
Yes, I'll chalk this one up to a language difference?
That says that this is a MODIFIED driver (you can see in the picture one of the mods, if you look cloesely). The Ferrofuild was ADDED by me, it did not come from the factory that way. Alright then?
<snip another snide comment removed>
If you wish, please state the magnitude of the impedance "peak" for the drivers? Also please state or otherwise (if possible) show any maesured deviations in frequency or other response due to this impedance peak being in the passband of a horn?
I'm more than please to learn and adjust my thinking.
Ok, if you say so. But I agree in general with what you said, I don't see how that differs from what I said?
Well, this odd.
Since SE Triode amps unless they use feedback will "specialize" in 2nd order harmonics, and have a unique clipping character. Also the DF will be darn close to (1) one. I don't know what ur thinking about or designing. Perhaps you wish to share in another thread these things?
So if there is no LF limit on this driver, you tried it from lets say 20Hz upwards?
Or DC right away?
Sure, but you won't get to DC, eh?
The SPL due to the excursion limits understandably will be rather low. Right?
So, please answer the specific question, what is the 555 rated down to? How is this driver "very different"? Once you get these questions properly understood, insights will come forth!
Where did you roll off the 555 in your 15A?
Your like or dislike of the 203 is irrelevant for this discussion.
Handle what? not sure what your question is...?
No idea what ur going for here... no idea.
If you read what I wrote, I said that there can be benefits to running the compression driver directly from the amplifier. So, what's wrong with that?
_-_-
I'll stay out of the ongoing argument here but will add that even with an electronic XO before an amp I don't know anybody using a compression driver in a professional application that wouldn't add at least a single cap to block any dc from getting to the diaphragm and taking them out. Perhaps at very low input power in a home you could do without the cap but it is a cheap way to protect the voicecoil for sure.
ps. Knowing Meyer and all the changes they have made over the years I have no problem believing they would modify a production driver. The addition of ferrofluids for power handling in PA applications is so common it is easy to believe.
ps. Knowing Meyer and all the changes they have made over the years I have no problem believing they would modify a production driver. The addition of ferrofluids for power handling in PA applications is so common it is easy to believe.
Last edited:
Meyer Sound patent on compression drivers
here is the complete patent:
Horn speaker and method for producing low distortion sound
if you read it carefully, you will see, that many of those type of drivers (and matching horns) have been designed and built before.
This is typical business, quite similar to Monsanto, who has patents on life.
here is the complete patent:
Horn speaker and method for producing low distortion sound
if you read it carefully, you will see, that many of those type of drivers (and matching horns) have been designed and built before.
This is typical business, quite similar to Monsanto, who has patents on life.
Meyer Sound modifications on Yamaha JA6681b
Your "feeling sorry" does not make the issue right:
ALL drivers which I got over the years had those modifications. This was also what Meyer-Sound advertised CLEARLY without daubt:
Again from Meyer-Sounds ad:
Meyer Sound stated Febr. 15th, 1999:
All Meyer Sound driver components are exclusively manufactured by Meyer Sound. Most of these are, in all aspects, proprietary designs. Other driver components are remanufactured from units originally built by outside vendors. All components are carefully designed, manufactured and rigorously tested.
The grading process routes the drivers into the enclosures where they will provide optimal performance. For example, the MS-15 (fifteen-inch LF driver) is used in both the MSL-2A and USW-1 systems. The MS-15 for MSL-2A requires a high degree of linearity from 40 Hz through the midband, whereas the USW-1 only needs to reach 100 Hz. The MS-15 for the MSL-2A is graded "Silver."
Every component of every loudspeaker manufactured by Meyer Sound is analyzed to verify that its frequency response, phase response and distortion characteristics fall within our specifications. There are no exceptions.
An important note regarding remanufactured components: Meyer Sound remanufactures HF driver components originally manufactured by Yamaha (MS-1401A) and JBL (MS-2001A). If you examine these drivers you will plainly see the identification marks of these companies. Do not be confused. The end product is not compatible with these original parts and can not be substituted. These units are customized by Meyer Sound to achieve greatly improved performance and reliability.
Component testing includes:
Component modifications include:
ANY Meyer-Sound driver without those mods has been modified back to an as close as possible orginal Yamaha state. Simply as that.
So yes, you might have opened tons of those Meyers, (I had plenty, and all had those mods and thickened ferrofluid) and yet, if they don't have those dampers inside, those were either removed or ... which I daubt very much, have replaced orig. Yamaha diaphragms.
Nevertheless, if those dampers and the thickened ferrofluid of those days have vanished, this must have been done with appropriate chemicals. Those chemicals very easely can also attack the laquer of the voicecoil
Your argument, not to use vaseline to clean airgaps, sorry.... it is again one of those guessing arguments: As with many issues: you have never tried it.
Instead of saying "Great.. that's worth a try" you react a bit like "you can't change the habits of a lifetime"
.
Too bad. There is no danger in using vaseline, of course one cleans it off thoroughly afterwards. There is no residue left over after a good clean.
Your "feeling sorry" does not make the issue right:
ALL drivers which I got over the years had those modifications. This was also what Meyer-Sound advertised CLEARLY without daubt:
Again from Meyer-Sounds ad:
Meyer Sound stated Febr. 15th, 1999:
All Meyer Sound driver components are exclusively manufactured by Meyer Sound. Most of these are, in all aspects, proprietary designs. Other driver components are remanufactured from units originally built by outside vendors. All components are carefully designed, manufactured and rigorously tested.
The grading process routes the drivers into the enclosures where they will provide optimal performance. For example, the MS-15 (fifteen-inch LF driver) is used in both the MSL-2A and USW-1 systems. The MS-15 for MSL-2A requires a high degree of linearity from 40 Hz through the midband, whereas the USW-1 only needs to reach 100 Hz. The MS-15 for the MSL-2A is graded "Silver."
Every component of every loudspeaker manufactured by Meyer Sound is analyzed to verify that its frequency response, phase response and distortion characteristics fall within our specifications. There are no exceptions.
An important note regarding remanufactured components: Meyer Sound remanufactures HF driver components originally manufactured by Yamaha (MS-1401A) and JBL (MS-2001A). If you examine these drivers you will plainly see the identification marks of these companies. Do not be confused. The end product is not compatible with these original parts and can not be substituted. These units are customized by Meyer Sound to achieve greatly improved performance and reliability.
Component testing includes:
- Overnight burn-in.
- Flux density analysis.
- Driver polarity verification.
- Frequency response analysis.
- Phase response analysis.
- Distortion analysis.
- Free air resonance verification.
Component modifications include:
- Ferrofluid injection to prevent coil overheating.
- Adhesive overhaul to improve immunity to heat and acceleration.
- Compliance modification to decrease distortion and extend mechanical life.
- Weather resistance to improve immunity to moisture.
ANY Meyer-Sound driver without those mods has been modified back to an as close as possible orginal Yamaha state. Simply as that.
So yes, you might have opened tons of those Meyers, (I had plenty, and all had those mods and thickened ferrofluid) and yet, if they don't have those dampers inside, those were either removed or ... which I daubt very much, have replaced orig. Yamaha diaphragms.
Nevertheless, if those dampers and the thickened ferrofluid of those days have vanished
, this must have been done with appropriate chemicals. Those chemicals very easely can also attack the laquer of the voicecoilYour argument, not to use vaseline to clean airgaps, sorry.... it is again one of those guessing arguments: As with many issues: you have never tried it.
Instead of saying "Great.. that's worth a try" you react a bit like "you can't change the habits of a lifetime"
. Too bad. There is no danger in using vaseline, of course one cleans it off thoroughly afterwards. There is no residue left over after a good clean.
All patents are based on prior art.
Meyer has the patents on this particular driver. That is clear. What is your point?
My point is that per your thesis, if Meyer had gone and had drivers made on his own, then A) they would not be re-badged Yamaha products, and B) Yamaha would not be producing product that Meyer held the patent(s) on in the USA, nor would C) Meyer be producing this driver (1401A) in the USA without Yamaha suing.
So, Meyer never owned a speaker factory, never made these drivers in the USA, and the arrangement between Meyer (holding some patents) and Yamaha is unclear and unknown since John Meyer has never said anything about it that has bubbled up to the surface.
_-_-
Meyer has the patents on this particular driver. That is clear. What is your point?
My point is that per your thesis, if Meyer had gone and had drivers made on his own, then A) they would not be re-badged Yamaha products, and B) Yamaha would not be producing product that Meyer held the patent(s) on in the USA, nor would C) Meyer be producing this driver (1401A) in the USA without Yamaha suing.
So, Meyer never owned a speaker factory, never made these drivers in the USA, and the arrangement between Meyer (holding some patents) and Yamaha is unclear and unknown since John Meyer has never said anything about it that has bubbled up to the surface.
_-_-
<snip>
Meyer says lots of hype.
Some of his hype is quite accurate, some is somewhat puffed up.
I listed the variants in the diaphragm mods.
Needless to say they are not "remanufactured", just doped.
The doping, and foam block application varied.
I suppose that at some point I will have to pop off the back covers on a few drivers and shoot pictures to convince you?
I also have a virgin NOS Yamaha diaphragm for comparison.
And, yes, after applying these mods (foam blocks + doping to the diaphragm surface) I would expect that it would be prudent to test the drivers and group them. Which is what he did.
Think I said that I have yet to find any with evidence of ferrofluid.
It is entirely possible that the ferrofluid was removed from all of them. Not statistically likely, but possible.
And, to repeat, there are a range of variants of the dampers/doping that was applied. Judging by the way it looks, seems unlikely to have been the work of a third party, but again it is statistically unlikely, but possible.
Keep in mind that Meyer refused to supply field replacements.
He wanted the drivers sent back to the factory.
Nevertheless, if those dampers and the thickened ferrofluid of those days have vanished
Best tell that to Ferrofluid, that they are selling a product that attacks the voice coil! Don't think this is what you mean.
You mean to say that the chemicals to remove the dope would also possibly attach the rest of the adhesives. Agree. Therefore it was not done. Also the dope is on the opposite side from the VC.
And the diaphragm is soft, thin and fragile, precluding any mechanical effort as part of the theorized removal process.
There's no way to take the doping off those diaphragms that I can see. You'd have to have a solvent that dissolves the doping and has zero effect on the rest of the adhesives/materials. And why would any body do that??
As I said, to repeat, there are a variety of doping/damping schemes/patterns used.
Your argument, not to use vaseline to clean airgaps, sorry.... it is again one of those guessing arguments: As with many issues: you have never tried it.
Instead of saying "Great.. that's worth a try" you react a bit like "you can't change the habits of a lifetime"
Too bad. There is no danger in using vaseline, of course one cleans it off thoroughly afterwards. There is no residue left over after a good clean.
Heh. Funny.
You said to use petroleum jelly (Vaseline) to clear the gap of ferrofluid.
I said, that's not what Ferrofluid recommends.
I also said, one would have to use a solvent to remove the residual vaseline. Now, you come and say that?
I don't see a good way to remove a greasy petroleum product from such a small gap without disassembling the driver. In which case there are better ways to clean it. The problem with a solvent is that it will make the grease flow, and likely flow below and behind the front of the gap, to the rear. Then it will afterwards heat and flow again to places where maybe you don't want it.
I'm not sure what the point of all this is.
Some of what you are saying now contradicts what you posted earlier. For example that Meyer manufactured these drivers, but now you post Meyer's literature where he claims to "re-manufacture" drivers made by others. Which is exactly what I said originally!
_-_-
Mucked up ferrofluid + DHT SE amps clipping nonsense
You see, writing that you are not wrong does not make it right.
You might be right with the modern ferrofluid you now add to those Meyer drivers, nevertheless you do not have decades of experience with it.
But many, not just me... have the experience what happens to "vintage ferrofluids":
They become sticky and are a pain in the *** to remove. The web is full of such experiences:
Fixing Ferrofluid tweeters - How To | The Emotiva Lounge
Repair/rebuild of dried ferrofluid KEF T 33 tweeter. $50 each! 107,104,102, etc
Those links I just picked up randomly. The web is full of such stories.
WRONG: I wrote:
"But then... you show in your own webside, that you ad ferrofluid to those drivers!"
YOUR ANSWER:
"I do not believe that is the case. I may have made reference to ferrofluid in other HF units, in specific the Focal T120 series. Link me the page - however I did have the intention of trying ferrofluid on the compression drivers, but never actually got to it."
This is not a matter of language, it is a matter of facts which you stated on your webside. So first you say, you never used ferrofluid in the Meyer drivers but intended to do it, then I remind you that on your webside you wrote years ago, that you did modify them with ferrofluid and now you try to tell me this is a misunderstanding (based on language)?
so yes:
and you should apply this as well to:
Because we are not interested in clipping characteristics here. We are speaking of a
high efficiency compression driver run with a SE Triode amp. This amp operates with milliwatts. Lets take a 7W 300B SE amp: Your Meyer MS1404A's have an efficiency of how many dB/1m?
BINGO: 107dB/1W/1m
So if I need 1W for 107dB, how loud will they play with 10W?
113dB
You need 113dB?
For a low efficiendy speaker with lets say 82dB/1W/1m
you need 10W to run it at 88dB, 100W for 94dB and 1000W for 100dB.
Our high efficient Yamaha or Meyer needs 1/10th of a Watt to run it with 101dB
and 1/100th of a Watt to run it at 95db.
So clipping isn't an issue here at all, but ... what really is an issue is how well does
an amplifier perform in the milliwatt region!
And... before we forget the most important fact:
We are not using this SE DHT amp fullrange but from... as I recommend it,
400-500Hz upwards. There is no hard use, as low frequencies are not transmitted!
A very important issue: As I had Krells, Marc Levinsons and "you name the other famous names"... all those solid state powerbeasts failed to perform well in
the milliwatt region. They were build to drive those Infinities, Magneplanars, Martin Logans, Ribbons and other socalled high-end speakers.
So yes, a SE DHT amp driving a Martin Logan fullrange ELS, yep... it will clip.
Badly. You need an Altec 1570B PP Triodeamp to drive those (and it does sound much better than any of those solid state amps)
You see, writing that you are not wrong does not make it right.
You might be right with the modern ferrofluid you now add to those Meyer drivers, nevertheless you do not have decades of experience with it.
But many, not just me... have the experience what happens to "vintage ferrofluids":
They become sticky and are a pain in the *** to remove. The web is full of such experiences:
Fixing Ferrofluid tweeters - How To | The Emotiva Lounge
Repair/rebuild of dried ferrofluid KEF T 33 tweeter. $50 each! 107,104,102, etc
Those links I just picked up randomly. The web is full of such stories.
Yes, I'll chalk this one up to a language difference?
That says that this is a MODIFIED driver (you can see in the picture one of the mods, if you look cloesely). The Ferrofuild was ADDED by me, it did not come from the factory that way. Alright then?
WRONG: I wrote:
"But then... you show in your own webside, that you ad ferrofluid to those drivers!"
YOUR ANSWER:
"I do not believe that is the case. I may have made reference to ferrofluid in other HF units, in specific the Focal T120 series. Link me the page - however I did have the intention of trying ferrofluid on the compression drivers, but never actually got to it."
This is not a matter of language, it is a matter of facts which you stated on your webside. So first you say, you never used ferrofluid in the Meyer drivers but intended to do it, then I remind you that on your webside you wrote years ago, that you did modify them with ferrofluid and now you try to tell me this is a misunderstanding (based on language)?
so yes:
I'm more than please to learn and adjust my thinking.
and you should apply this as well to:
Because we are not interested in clipping characteristics here. We are speaking of a
high efficiency compression driver run with a SE Triode amp. This amp operates with milliwatts. Lets take a 7W 300B SE amp: Your Meyer MS1404A's have an efficiency of how many dB/1m?
BINGO: 107dB/1W/1m
So if I need 1W for 107dB, how loud will they play with 10W?
113dB
You need 113dB?
For a low efficiendy speaker with lets say 82dB/1W/1m
you need 10W to run it at 88dB, 100W for 94dB and 1000W for 100dB.
Our high efficient Yamaha or Meyer needs 1/10th of a Watt to run it with 101dB
and 1/100th of a Watt to run it at 95db.
So clipping isn't an issue here at all, but ... what really is an issue is how well does
an amplifier perform in the milliwatt region!
And... before we forget the most important fact:
We are not using this SE DHT amp fullrange but from... as I recommend it,
400-500Hz upwards. There is no hard use, as low frequencies are not transmitted!
A very important issue: As I had Krells, Marc Levinsons and "you name the other famous names"... all those solid state powerbeasts failed to perform well in
the milliwatt region. They were build to drive those Infinities, Magneplanars, Martin Logans, Ribbons and other socalled high-end speakers.
So yes, a SE DHT amp driving a Martin Logan fullrange ELS, yep... it will clip.
Badly. You need an Altec 1570B PP Triodeamp to drive those (and it does sound much better than any of those solid state amps)
Odeon,
Dear fellow, ur funny. Your assumptions regarding my lack of experience and knowledge are way off base.
Now, do I *need* 113dB?
Average? No.
Peak? sure.
Your assumptions about what I have or have used for amplification is funny too. I own 1570b amps, have for a long time, like 25years or so. Others too. Tubes and solid state. Both.
I mentioned SE amps wrt to clipping since A) most people clip them (and don't know it) and B) they DO "specialize" in 2nd harmonics. Should I mention only part of the issue, so that you can pop back in and go "ah ha caught you"? Silly.
I guess you just want to be on top, so go ahead, I think what I said so far stands on its own. The only time I jump into a discussion like this one is when I think something is being said that could be taken as gospel fact but may not be so.
_-_-
Dear fellow, ur funny. Your assumptions regarding my lack of experience and knowledge are way off base.
Now, do I *need* 113dB?
Average? No.
Peak? sure.
Your assumptions about what I have or have used for amplification is funny too. I own 1570b amps, have for a long time, like 25years or so. Others too. Tubes and solid state. Both.
I mentioned SE amps wrt to clipping since A) most people clip them (and don't know it) and B) they DO "specialize" in 2nd harmonics. Should I mention only part of the issue, so that you can pop back in and go "ah ha caught you"? Silly.
I guess you just want to be on top, so go ahead, I think what I said so far stands on its own. The only time I jump into a discussion like this one is when I think something is being said that could be taken as gospel fact but may not be so.
_-_-
Seems like a war of words going on here! I would have to say that both of you have made some valid points and have also disagreed on some semantic differences along the way. From what I know Meyer has never produced any devices but is known for modifying production units. Can you get a patent for a modified device, apparently you can, I think the device has to have at a minimum 10% difference or some specific measurable improvement. I didn't read that entire patent from Meyer but suspect there isn't much anything new or unique outside of the legalize used in the description. On the Ferro Fluid argument I have to say that Odean is correct that there are some problems with viscosity change of the fluid over time. Depending on the usage this process has a very wide time variation. High temperature use, in other words if the voicecoil reaches high temperatures this viscosity change is accelerated. I do believe that this happens no matter what though, it may take a long time in a driver that never has a high power input and low voice coil temperatures. There are co solvents in those oils and this is what is changing the viscosity, a loss of those additives used to vary the viscosity of the different compounds. As far as putting a secondary adhesive over the original bond on a voicecoil I question the usefulness of that? I work with Precision Econowind and I do not believe that there is any reason that this would improve the winding besides adding additional mass that could absorb some additional heat over very short periods of time. I do not believe you could increase the basic heat distortion temperature of the base adhesive, that will still set the ultimate heat limit of a voicecoil. These are typically thermoset adhesives that have an upper limit before you reach the Hdt of that adhesive. This upper limit is set by the processing temperature used to form the voicecoil. If you do not process to the upper limit of the adhesive and subsequently heat above that temperature the adhesive will soften and you will have failure. This one of the failure modes of all thermoset materials.
Odeon,
One watt to ten watts is a 10 dB change, 107 to 117 dB.
82dB/1W/1m, 92dB at 10w, 102dB at 100w, 112dB at 1000w (poof).
107 dB -10 dB (1/10th watt) is 97 dB, 1/100th watt produces 87 dB at one meter, at two meters only 81 dB. In room, the reverberant sound will drop off at less than 6 dB per doubling of distance.
I'll stay out of the JA-6681 Ferrofluid debate, other than recalling frozen Meyers MSL3 systems loaded out of sub zero trucks in Minnesota winters in the 1980's requiring extensive warm up (AC-DC's music was generally used rather than pink noise
) before the Ferrofluid viscosity (and frequency response) returned to normal.Carry on...
Art
Patents
Did I say that Meyer manufactured the 1401A?
I wrote:
This "possibly" indicated a guess. Because for some strange reason Yamaha brought out a patent shortly after. Why? My guess (and I could be totally wrong, of course) is that Meyer intended to produce the JA6681b and have rights for it, i.e. to push Yamaha out. As said, sheer guess. But why apply for a patent when just modifying a driver? A patent is quite time-consuming and expensive.
Did I say that Meyer manufactured the 1401A?
I wrote:
This "possibly" indicated a guess. Because for some strange reason Yamaha brought out a patent shortly after. Why? My guess (and I could be totally wrong, of course) is that Meyer intended to produce the JA6681b and have rights for it, i.e. to push Yamaha out. As said, sheer guess. But why apply for a patent when just modifying a driver? A patent is quite time-consuming and expensive.